Gay Marriage

[Kibbo]

OK,

This is a very divisive issue in all Western countries. The thing is, I have never heard a solid argument against Gay marriage. Most other issues of this sort (capital punishment, abortion) I sorta at least understand where the other side is coming from, and it took a bit of thinking to decide what I beleived. In this one, I haven't heard one solid argement that stood up under scrutiny. Note that I am looking for general arguments, not jurisdiction-specific ones. No pulling out an obscure clause of the Constitution.

Basic argument for: Two people can walk into a government building, ask for a licence, and be denied this on the basis of their relative genders. This is discrimination. I would weigh the bad of this discrimination againsts other arguments, but I haven't heard any good ones.

Bad ones I've heard:

It threatens the institution of marriage. Umm. . I don't see how it affects straight marriage. If someone could explain this one to me in greater detail, that might be helpful.

Marriage is a religious concept regarding which the State has no right to legislate. This argument is bettter. But its logic inevitably leads a complete separation of marriage from legal definitions, leaving some kind "civil union" for both straights and gays as the only legal component. It also allows for gay marriage in those churches that recognize them. It's essentially a pro-gay marriage argument in disguise.

Marriage is the fundamental unit of the family, who's primary goal is the raising of children. Another better one, with a few flaws. It de-legitimizes straight marriages that either choose not to or are unable to have children. It also implicitly de-values single-parent families.

So help me out, explain to me why you think it is a bad idea.

And lefties, no flaming or trolling please, I want to hear what these guys have to say. Don't discourage them.

 

[biostud]

Because God will send anyone who allows it straight to hell.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: biostud666
Because God will send anyone who allows it straight to hell.

Homosexuality is an abomination! (I read that in some thread yesterday)

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

Originally posted by: biostud666
Because God will send anyone who allows it straight to hell.

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: biostud666
Because God will send anyone who allows it straight to hell.

Homosexuality is an abomination! (I read that in some thread yesterday)

Originally posted by: Todd33
Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays. They love to use God to hate. Times change and religious type always fight it. We'll all look back in twenty years and laugh at them.

They do the same thing to science.

And lefties, no flaming or trolling please, I want to hear what these guys have to say. Don't discourage them.

Too late Oh well just have the pretend arguments and maybe that will be good enough!

 

[Todd33]

Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays. They love to use God to hate. Times change and religious type always fight it. We'll all look back in twenty years and laugh at them.

They do the same thing to science.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays. They love to use God to hate. Times change and religious type always fight it. We'll all look back in twenty years and laugh at them.

They do the same thing to science.

Actually, any person of religion that I personally know, who uses their religion as a reason to be against gay marriage, does not hate gays. They just disagree with the life style and seek to teach them the wrong of their ways. A true Christian wouldn't hate you for sinning but would instead seek to lead you to redemption and salvation.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays.......

I'm speaking as someone who does not have a religious bone in his body. You sir are a bigot and are no different than the supposed people you are bigoted against. Find a hole and make yourself at home.

:disgust:

 

[Vic]

First, biostud666, what part about "no flaming or trolling please" does your tiny little mind not understand?

Okay... kibbo, oddly enough, all 3 of your "bad ones" do contain some degree of merit, just not in the highly biased way that you presented them.

Taking all 3 in order, the 1st is true but only as a corollary of the 3rd.

The 2nd is true, but only insofar as I believe that the institution of marriage should be completely removed from government control and (hence) benefit. Is that "essentially a pro-gay marriage argument in disguise"? Perhaps. I would completely support gay marriage under those conditions.

The most valid argument is the 3rd one, which is the basis of marriage and its history.
Because human children take so relatively long to raise and nurture, human society believes that it is appropriate for the parents responsible for the conception of the child to make a pact to stay together so that they may raise their child(ren) together. Believe it or not, this is why humans created marriage in the first place. If you look out at other species, you will see that those who also have a relatively long nurture period for their children also tend to engage in a similar male-female bonding (though not always for life and often in what we would look at as polygamous relationships -- this includes many species of birds, many species of fish, wolves, lions, apes, and more).
Does that argument de-legitimize straight couples who do not have children? No, that they can marry is a concession made to them out of pity because not all couple are physically capable of having children. In the past, couples that voluntarily chose not to have children were looked down on. Single-parent families should be devalued, as they have been proven to be (more often than not) damaging to the children involved -- the parents broke their pact made for the sake of their children and that alone can damage children. But the fact alone that the children are damaged more often than not is why they should be de-valued, as an incentive to parents to try to maturely address their differences and maintain their relationship (but this is another controversial argument that I do not wish to start here).

/waits for Moonie or 0roo to come in and call be a "bigot" or "homophobe" again, despite the fact that Moonie's only argument for homosexuality is because he finds the act so distasteful that of course all homosexuals must be born that way.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays. They love to use God to hate. Times change and religious type always fight it. We'll all look back in twenty years and laugh at them.

They do the same thing to science.

I'm a religious type, yet agree with absolutely nothing in your post. explain that one.

My girfriend has a better paying job than I do, and mine isnt too shabby. The last thing you will catch her doing is sitting around a house as the traditional "housewife"

I never owned, wanted or condoned any type of slavery.

I dot hate blacks or Muslims, in fact some of my best friends since childhood are black, and some of my best friends from college are Muslims. I also have gay friends. I even have one friend who is Black AND a Muslim, and another who is Black AND gay, (Oh NOESSS!!) Though I havent met a gay black muslim yet....

Yes, God loves whites, but not for any other reason than he loves everyone, including you.

God "hates" no one.

To sum up my post, if your going to try and complain about the bigotry of someone, check your own first.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I have a hard time seeing any persuasive, non-religious reason why they should be illegal.

One argument I've heard that you haven't mentioned (and a specious one IMO) is that allowing homosexual marriage will excessively increase costs to health-insurance providers and employers, and encourage a profusion of sham gay marriages to "steal" benefits currently afforded only to spouses.

It seems to me this argument can just as easily be applied to heterosexual marriages, however.

 

[Zephyr106]

The real issue is that gay marriage will legitimize homosexuality and FORCE people, including children, to become gay.

Zephyr

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: DonVito
I have a hard time seeing any persuasive, non-religious reason why they should be illegal.

One argument I've heard that you haven't mentioned (and a specious one IMO) is that allowing homosexual marriage will excessively increase costs to health-insurance providers and employers, and encourage a profusion of sham gay marriages to "steal" benefits currently afforded only to spouses.

It seems to me this argument can just as easily be applied to heterosexual marriages, however.

But that is the most valid of all arguments from an economic perspective. If same-sex marriage is allowed, I guarantee that a major court case will occur in the first couple of years in which a same-sex but non-homosexual couple will sue for their right to marry. <edit>And they WILL win.</edit>
As I said in another thread, you don't have to be gay to act gay.

IMO, what this demostrates is the need to get government out of the marriage business, while all current agendas for same-sex marriage seek to greatly increase government involvement in marriage. Hence, my opposition, not to same-sex marriage, but to the current agendas.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zephyr106
The real issue is that gay marriage will legitimize homosexuality and FORCE people, including children, to become gay.

Zephyr

Die troll.

 

[TuxDave]

OK OK! Me first! I'm not against gay marriages, but while going through some self-debating I came up with some conflicts.

If marriage were to maintain its legal ties, and homosexuality be allowed. Why isn't polygamy legal then? The one solution that probably no one will vote for is to separate legal rights and marriage rights. That way a church will maintain its authority to conduct gay marriages or not. However, I don't see how it can resolve issues regarding custody, taxes etc....

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Todd33
Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays.......

I'm speaking as someone who does not have a religious bone in his body. You sir are a bigot and are no different than the supposed people you are bigoted against. Find a hole and make yourself at home.

:disgust:

It's a fine line between being intolerant of intolerance and become bigoted yourself. I think calling anyone opposed to homosexuals on any irrational basis "bigoted" is entirely accurate. 'Nuff said. There's no need to marginalize the bigots any further than that.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Zephyr106
The real issue is that gay marriage will legitimize homosexuality and FORCE people, including children, to become gay.

Zephyr

Ah, looks like Todd33 won't be lonely. This thread now has 2 morons who can feed off each other.

At least Zephyr tries to mask his idiocy in pseduo-sarcasm.......

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

My personal answer as I don't speak for "Rightys" as you so eloquently put it.

I hate the trend of accepting abberant behavior. I believe in informal standards, moral and ethical, for individuals and families. While I 100% do not want to force people legally to conform to those standards, I do want to protect their informal existence as a benchmark. I believe a society without them will decay.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
My personal answer as I don't speak for "Rightys" as you so eloquently put it.

I hate the trend of accepting abberant behavior. I believe in informal standards, moral and ethical, for individuals and families. While I 100% do not want to force people legally to conform to those standards, I do want to protect their informal existence as a benchmark. I believe a society without them will decay.

Do you believe in love?

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Todd33
Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays.......

I'm speaking as someone who does not have a religious bone in his body. You sir are a bigot and are no different than the supposed people you are bigoted against. Find a hole and make yourself at home.

:disgust:

It's a fine line between being intolerant of intolerance and become bigoted yourself. I think calling anyone opposed to homosexuals on any irrational basis "bigoted" is entirely accurate. 'Nuff said. There's no need to marginalize the bigots any further than that.

Sorry DM, but he is not being "intolerant of intolerance", his argument/statement paints all "religious people" with the same broad brush. Some religious types use similar arguments with regard to the "gay lifestyle". Both are ignorant. Wake up.

 

[Perknose]

I cry at weddings.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Perknose
I cry at weddings.

My wife cries at the movies........Big Fish nearly dehydrated her to the point of turning her into a pile of salt.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Todd33
Religious people are bigots. They always fight civil rights. God wanted women to be barefoot and pregnant, God wanted blacks to be slaves, God loves the white man, God hates Muslems, now God hates gays.......

I'm speaking as someone who does not have a religious bone in his body. You sir are a bigot and are no different than the supposed people you are bigoted against. Find a hole and make yourself at home.

:disgust:

It's a fine line between being intolerant of intolerance and become bigoted yourself. I think calling anyone opposed to homosexuals on any irrational basis "bigoted" is entirely accurate. 'Nuff said. There's no need to marginalize the bigots any further than that.

Sorry DM, but he is not being "intolerant of intolerance", his argument/statement paints all "religious people" with the same broad brush. Some religious types use similar arguments with regard to the "gay lifestyle". Both are ignorant. Wake up.

Ah, but who decides what is ignorance?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Corn
Sorry DM, but he is not being "intolerant of intolerance", his argument/statement paints all "religious people" with the same broad brush. Some religious types use similar arguments with regard to the "gay lifestyle". Both are ignorant. Wake up.

I was agreeing with you. Did you miss that part?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Perknose
I cry at weddings.

My wife cries at the movies........Big Fish nearly dehydrated her to the point of turning her into a pile of salt.

Heh. Big Fish was a cool movie.


btw, as I sought to point out a few days ago in another thread but which I think was completely misunderstood, the Bible is NOT a good standpoint from which to oppose homosexuality. It is only referenced twice, the first time in Leviticus amongst a grouping of other laws that would be so unrealistic in our modern society as to be laughable, and the second time in Romans as a letter from Paul to the Church in Rome (then in its infancy), but only as a warning against living immoral lifestyles (of which homosexuality was one of many).
I consider myself a Christian (though by no means a Fundamentalist or Evangelical of any type) and I see no reason why 2 (or more) consenting adults cannot do to themselves in privacy whatever the fsck (literally) they want.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: biostud666

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
My personal answer as I don't speak for "Rightys" as you so eloquently put it.

I hate the trend of accepting abberant behavior. I believe in informal standards, moral and ethical, for individuals and families. While I 100% do not want to force people legally to conform to those standards, I do want to protect their informal existence as a benchmark. I believe a society without them will decay.

Do you believe in love?

I don't think people know what love is.