Gay Marriage...

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
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Shakespeare's "Othello" used to be among the hardest plays to stage in America. Although the actors playing Othello were white, they wore dark makeup, so audiences felt "disgust and horror," as Abigail Adams said. She wrote, "My whole soul shuddered whenever I saw the sooty heretic Moor touch the fair Desdemona." Not until 1942, when Paul Robeson took the role, did a major American performance use a black actor as Othello. Even then, Broadway theaters initially refused to accommodate such a production.

Fortunately, we did not enshrine our "disgust and horror" in the Constitution - but we could have. Long before President Bush's call for a "constitutional amendment protecting marriage," Representative Seaborn Roddenberry of Georgia proposed an amendment that he said would uphold the sanctity of marriage.

Mr. Roddenberry's proposed amendment, in December 1912, stated, "Intermarriage between Negroes or persons of color and Caucasians . . . is forever prohibited." He took this action, he said, because some states were permitting marriages that were "abhorrent and repugnant," and he aimed to "exterminate now this debasing, ultrademoralizing, un-American and inhuman leprosy." "Let this condition go on if you will," Mr. Roddenberry warned. "At some day, perhaps remote, it will be a question always whether or not the solemnizing of matrimony in the North is between two descendants of our Anglo-Saxon fathers and mothers or whether it be of a mixed blood descended from the orangutan-trodden shores of far-off Africa." (His zoology was off: orangutans come from Asia, not Africa.)

In Mr. Bush's argues that the drastic step of a constitutional amendment is necessary because "marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society." Mr. Roddenberry also worried about the risks ahead: "This slavery of white women to black beasts will bring this nation to a conflict as fatal and as bloody as ever reddened the soil of Virginia."

In the last half-century, there has been a stunning change in racial attitudes. All but nine states banned interracial marriages at one time, and in 1958, a poll found that 96 percent of whites disapproved of marriages between blacks and whites. Yet in 1997, 77 percent approved. (A personal note: my wife is Chinese-American, and I heartily recommend miscegenation.)

Mr. Bush is an indicator of a similar revolution in views - toward homosexuality - but one that is still unfolding. In 1994, Mr. Bush supported a Texas antisodomy law that let the police arrest gays in their own homes. Now the Bushes have gay friends, and Mr. Bush appoints gays to office without worrying that he will turn into a pillar of salt.

Social conservatives like Mr. Bush are right in saying that marriage is "the most fundamental institution in
civilization." So we should extend it to America's gay minority - just as marriage was earlier extended from Europe's aristocrats to the masses.

Conservatives can fairly protest that the gay marriage issue should be decided by a political process, not by unelected judges. But there is a political process under way: state legislatures can bar the recognition of gay marriages registered in Sodom-on-the-Charles, Mass., or anywhere else. The Defense of Marriage Act specifically gives states that authority.

Yet the Defense of Marriage Act is itself a reminder of the difficulties of achieving morality through legislation. It was, as Slate noted, written by the thrice-married Representative Bob Barr and signed by the philandering Bill Clinton. It's less a monument to fidelity than to hypocrisy.

It seems to me that the best way to preserve the sanctity of American marriage is for us all to spend less time fretting about other people's marriages - and more time improving our own.



From the New York Times...
March 3, 2004 NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF


Canada legalized gay marriage... and they certaintly are in moral shambles.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
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It'll be legalized, not now but eventually. I see people realizing its something they don't have to like but its not like it really hurts them anyhow.

 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
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I would agree... I think some time from now (how soon we'll see), we'll be able to look back and see that gay marriage was a total non-issue. Which it is.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,664
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Originally posted by: wylecoyote
Yet the Defense of Marriage Act is itself a reminder of the difficulties of achieving morality through legislation. It was, as Slate noted, written by the thrice-married Representative Bob Barr and signed by the philandering Bill Clinton. It's less a monument to fidelity than to hypocrisy.

It seems to me that the best way to preserve the sanctity of American marriage is for us all to spend less time fretting about other people's marriages - and more time improving our own.

My sentiments exactly. BTW, where is Sodom-on-Charles Massachusetts?
 

AFB

Lifer
Jan 10, 2004
10,718
3
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Cut & Paste articles suck, please post your own posts unless it's news.
 

JustAnAverageGuy

Diamond Member
Aug 1, 2003
9,057
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Originally posted by: amdfanboy
Cut & Paste articles suck, please post your own posts unless it's news.

Cliff Notes:

A really long time ago, in 1912, interracial marriage was immoral, bad, would result in all kinds of horrible things
Author draws parallels to gay marriage.
Author says (paraphrased) mind your own damn business

It seems to me that the best way to preserve the sanctity of American marriage is for us all to spend less time fretting about other people's marriages - and more time improving our own.
 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
141
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I'd really like to hear some conservative thought on this... seriously, I'm not being sarcastic.

C'mon... where are the guys with American flags for their icons? Come in and throw down! Lemme hear it!
 

Yo Ma Ma

Lifer
Jan 21, 2000
11,635
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Well wyle, if you wanted more controversy then it might have been better to write your own material, or change your thread title to "Gay Marriage... the way NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF sees it"

I think the author makes an accurate observation, and if we stick around long enough we can all reap the benefits of gay marriage in our society. Go team!
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Why is everyone ripping into wylecoyote for posting an editorial from somewhere else? Every other thread I see (many of them started by Rip) seems to be doing this. What's the big deal this time?

Yes, I don't like it either, why pick on the new guy?
 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
141
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Well Yo ma-ma, I couldn't say it better than him... so i didn't. He makes a much more compelling argument than I could formulate. I could write some inarticulate blather that just pisses conservatives off and gets us nowhere, however. And I wanted discussion, not controversy.

And I did cite him... was it not proper MLA format?

You a fan of the cello?
 

Yo Ma Ma

Lifer
Jan 21, 2000
11,635
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Originally posted by: wylecoyote
Thanks Rainsford... in retrospect, I obviously commited an unspoken sin.

I live, I learn.

LOL, it's not *that* bad. I think the article has some valid observations. I am not certain of the accuracy or necessity of the Abigail Adams information, mostly because I am not really familiar with the play Othello. Otherwise, it seems like a valid parallel.

/aside

Oh a fan of the cello, very good you picked up on the Yo-Yo Ma / Yo Ma-Ma username

I am a fan, love the sound. I am a viola player though, like a mini-cello
 

vwtankgirl

Member
Jan 13, 2005
62
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Originally posted by: wylecoyote
Used to be a competition pianist back in high-school. Fingers gone rusty now.

It must be awful that they are a red brown color...
(as seen on most cars in the rust belt)

This is coming from an artist that no longer paints... shame on me.
 

vwtankgirl

Member
Jan 13, 2005
62
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0
oops... this topic is on gay marriage.
A gay man or lesbian has no effect on my marraige. Maybe my last one, but not this one. (a gay man had a hand in the final straw, but not the problems leading up to the divorce)
Now divorce, that is the destroyer of marriage. Did Mr President ever think of that... no, lets blame the homosexuals. Now we are taking away rights.
*sigh*
What can ya do.
 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
141
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Exactly... I feel that the last line of the article sums it up perfectly. I forgot the statistic, but something like half all marriages fail in the first five years...(or am I confusing this with restaurants) we need to stop spending our energy worrying about someone's rights to marry and focus on our own marriages.

 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
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I get so sick and tired of homosexuals trying to compare homosexuality to that of racial tolerence. You have got to be f'in kidding me. Two guys boinking each other is not the same as a black person or woman who fought for equal rights. Homosexuals have equal rights the problem is they want to be granted special permission because they want to be female instead of being male as they were born, or vice versa. Its a damn joke. Next we'll have drug dealers saying they should be allowed to teach a college class on capitalism. Give me a damn break.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
And I'll go on record right now and say homosexual marriage will never ever be accepted. Even those who aren't religous find it disgusting and abnormal. It is rejected by every religion that I know of. You might as well forget it.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
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Originally posted by: classy
And I'll go on record right now and say homosexual marriage will never ever be accepted. Even those who aren't religous find it disgusting and abnormal. It is rejected by every religion that I know of. You might as well forget it.

Number of states 10 years ago where gays could marry: 0
Number of states today where gays can marry: 2

Looks like the abnormals are gaining some ground.
 

Yo Ma Ma

Lifer
Jan 21, 2000
11,635
2
0
Originally posted by: classy
And I'll go on record right now and say homosexual marriage will never ever be accepted. Even those who aren't religous find it disgusting and abnormal. It is rejected by every religion that I know of. You might as well forget it.

I think there are some churches where it will not happen, but as a legal, civil contract, I think it's just a matter of time and effort.
 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
141
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0
I'm not disgusted by it. Are you guys disgusted by it?

Just like interracial marrige used to be considered "disgusting", and now is accepted... gay marriage will follow suit.

It's a question not of if, but when. only a matter of time.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
Originally posted by: Yo_Ma-Ma
Originally posted by: classy
And I'll go on record right now and say homosexual marriage will never ever be accepted. Even those who aren't religous find it disgusting and abnormal. It is rejected by every religion that I know of. You might as well forget it.

I think there are some churches where it will not happen, but as a legal, civil contract, I think it's just a matter of time and effort.

Every state that had a vote on an amendment to ban gay marriage in their state constitutions passed. And quite convincingly as well. The states that allow it had judges rule in favor gays, those states haven't heard from the people in those states yet. When they have a vote like the other states it will be shot down.
 
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