[GeForce Forums] Nvidia has officially blocked 900M overclocking

[3DVagabond]

That is one of the plausible theories. However, don't be so quick to dismiss the lack of competition angle. Remember how Nvidia straight up did nothing for 2 years while the 8800 GTX dominated the market? 9 Series was all die shrinks and we didn't get an actually faster GPU until the GTX 280! And remember the 3 generations of mobile G92? LOL!

Disabling overclocking could simply be a way to drag out the current mobile GPUs and delay the rollout of new chips and architectures. Why release new stuff when you could just keep making money on the old stuff? It's not like AMD is any threat to take away market share since they are so far behind at this point.

Seems kinda dumb for them to bring all of this negative press onto themselves now right after the 970 debacle. Not a good way to leverage their market position. Which is what your theory states they are doing.

 

[octiceps]

Seems kinda dumb for them to bring all of this negative press onto themselves now right after the 970 debacle. Not a good way to leverage their market position. Which is what your theory states they are doing.

No, Nvidia's brilliant imitation of Ubi$oft began a year ago, when it released the defective by design 880M and hung all 880M owners out to dry by never fixing or even acknowledging the existence of its problems.

 

[RampantAndroid]

This is what a steady customer base, one which is willing to turn their pockets inside out brings. For example, most Apple products don't lack competition, but Apple charges premium because sheep, they flock. Nvidia prices its products the same way, competition or no competition. No disprespect, but a business has no reason to have better prices for consumers when they're buying the products regardless. If you knew anything about the GPU market/ basic principles of economics, you would not suggest that it is due to lack of competition.

For the sake of the specific discussion, while off topic slightly, realize that Apple offers a higher quality laptop than most other OEMs. It's a good screen, good service and so forth. More to the point though, as of a few months ago, the Air is priced cheaper than a similarly spec'ed Surface 3 - especially at the top end. And they made the 15" cheaper by dropping the dGPU. There is PLENTY of competition; some people prefer a better made laptop, or some might prefer OSX. Both of those can lead you to Apple. Frankly, a MBP is the best Windows laptop out there...the whole touchscreen trend didn't help the Windows laptop market IMO though.

The point here though is that Nvidia in the mobile space is competing against Intel - NOT against AMD. And Intel isn't competing with the gaming dGPUs in laptops really either. The day someone comes along with an alternative to the 980m/880m people are finally given a choice better than "Buy the laptop I want and feed Nvidia or forgo the laptop" - they're allowed to get what they want AND not fund Nvidia's BS practices. Either Nvidia or Asus have egg on their face here.

 

[krumme]

The problem with AMD on mobile is definitely drivers. I've had notebooks with Radeons in it and their reliance on major brands to update catalyst is why they failed. I could not update using direct AMD drivers, I had to get HP modified drivers, but HP stopped releasing new drivers a long time ago. Newer games had glitches or would crash.

My experience with discrete AMD graphics in notebooks have all been horrible. This is stark contrast to their desktop drivers which have been fine for many years.

They just aren't even bothered to compete in notebooks TBH. The lack of effort is clear. This leaves NV in a monopoly in that segment and as such, they are pulling an Intel with this move to lock-down OC. It allows them better product segmentation & more potential profits.

The problem about getting modified drivers isnt that something that applied to nv as well. Its years ago but i recall something like it?

As for competition in mobile kepler and maxwell ofcource is just plain better arch for mobile gaming because they are better perf/watt vs the solution amd had. Then add for midrange and below optimus was years before enduro.

But the lack of competition is just in some degree influnced by product but more by brand. Just look at this thread and forum in general for desktop as well.

The entire idea that there are amd gpu fans and nv fans i way off. Nv fans buy green nomatter what happens and can even find excuses for nv - a pile of it they can use freely. Amd "fans" mostly buys because its better perf/cost, never because of colour, and exactly how much worth is that?

 

[krumme]

When you get late for a meeting you will say its because there was eg a lot of traffic on the highway. When others get late its because they are eg lazy.

In a nv fan world. When nv introduce classic segmentation without warning the reason is everything in the world except ...nv.
Its kind of magic but its a classic and thats what a strong brand does to the mind.

 

[tviceman]

The problem with AMD on mobile is definitely drivers.

Drivers can't fix a 4 year old GPU being their high end mobile GPU. They've been stuck on Pitcairn while Nvidia was using the faster GK104, and now much faster GM204. Software and drivers are half the equation, but drivers alone can't make old hardware compete with way better hardware.

 

[garagisti]

For the sake of the specific discussion, while off topic slightly, realize that Apple offers a higher quality laptop than most other OEMs. It's a good screen, good service and so forth. More to the point though, as of a few months ago, the Air is priced cheaper than a similarly spec'ed Surface 3 - especially at the top end. And they made the 15" cheaper by dropping the dGPU. There is PLENTY of competition; some people prefer a better made laptop, or some might prefer OSX. Both of those can lead you to Apple. Frankly, a MBP is the best Windows laptop out there...the whole touchscreen trend didn't help the Windows laptop market IMO though.

The point here though is that Nvidia in the mobile space is competing against Intel - NOT against AMD. And Intel isn't competing with the gaming dGPUs in laptops really either. The day someone comes along with an alternative to the 980m/880m people are finally given a choice better than "Buy the laptop I want and feed Nvidia or forgo the laptop" - they're allowed to get what they want AND not fund Nvidia's BS practices. Either Nvidia or Asus have egg on their face here.

I don't want to talk about Apple and their products, beyond the simple fact that their customers for a large part are rather closed to other products. No, it is not higher quality or superior offerings as has been proven time and again. Similarly here you have customers of a IHV, who just buy the same hardware despite being told that they're using it wrong.

As i just proved in another post, 680M were selling for much more than 7970M (about $250 more or so than a 7970M) while the performance of both was rather similar. All this chat about egg on Nvidia face will only become reality when people stop turning out their pockets. This is how market works. Higher demand translates to higher prices. Yes, higher prices are to bring down demand, but here the demand as we can see in dGPU market is steady for a specific brand, nevermind what competition brings. So yes, people really have themselves to blame, as no one is forcing them to turn their pockets over.

 

[ocre]

The problem about getting modified drivers isnt that something that applied to nv as well. Its years ago but i recall something like it?

As for competition in mobile kepler and maxwell ofcource is just plain better arch for mobile gaming because they are better perf/watt vs the solution amd had. Then add for midrange and below optimus was years before enduro.

But the lack of competition is just in some degree influnced by product but more by brand. Just look at this thread and forum in general for desktop as well.

The entire idea that there are amd gpu fans and nv fans i way off. Nv fans buy green nomatter what happens and can even find excuses for nv - a pile of it they can use freely. Amd "fans" mostly buys because its better perf/cost, never because of colour, and exactly how much worth is that?

What you say about nvidia fans can and does apply exactly the same to AMD fans. Just the way you worded the statement shows which side of the fence you are on. But I almost sure you will be in complete denial.

AMD/ATI has not always been the cheaper option and they once had a much higher stake in this market. You and everybody knows (or should know) that winning on this new "perf/cost" metric isn't AMDs first choice but actually something they were forced to resort to.

The only people buying on perf/cost are those on a budget. In today's world there are plenty of options for those people and they don't even need to buy traditional PCs to be connected. There are plenty of inexpensive outlets not to mention the fact that the shifting to ultra low power in our computing world has allowed people with really old PCs to truck along generation after generation. How is that for perf per dollar. There are people out there using dinosaurs every day.

Today it is a luxury to stay up to date in the traditional PC market. It's rarely by necessity. And those on a budget will buy when they absolutely have to. Not every generation, not for kicks and giggles, when there is no other option.

So when it comes to the PC market today, winning the mindshare of people on a budget is not this great achievement their CEO should be dancing over.

These are just people looking for the best deal and they are AMD "fans" by default. They won't be upgrading often and when they do, it's out of absolute necessity. They have no care about AMD just getting a good deal. Having to go "the cheap route" actually helps promote the intel/nvidia brand, as hard as that might be to accept.

But

The truth is that AMD has real fans though. They buy and defend products to no end. People who were just looking for a great deal wouldn't spend days and weeks at a time on forums telling people how nvidia owners are sheeple. Of course, you know that deep down even if you won't admit to it. Cause ultimately, this thread is a thread like countless others on countless forums across the world. It's full of people that don't even own the nvidia HW being discussed. Their are no shortage of pro AMD preachers lining up to take a swing at nvidia and the people who buy their HW. Kind of like this post by you.

It doesn't help that nvidia makes it so easy and sets themselves up for an easy beat down. But even when it isn't easy, there is always something.

Don't get me wrong, there are just as many looking to jump all over AMD and will exploit every opportunity to no end. And that is the point. You can set here and paint nvidia fans this and AMD fans gold, whatever you like. But you are right in the middle of this. I mean seriously, why are you concerned so much on what people buy for themselves? And an accusation that nvidia people buy nvidia no matter what in a thread about mobile, what?????

This is one of the few places where the higher priced nvidia brand makes the most sense, even from a pure value/budget perspective. You should actually be questioning anyone who goes the other route instead.

I think I just wanted to speak about this idea that has been going around as of late. That nvidia is so popular because their fans just buy nvidia no matter what. With the market split now, probably 80/20, do you really believe that is the driving force behind nvidia dominance? Sure, there are nvidia die hards. Plenty. But, AMD has plenty of them too. Not hard to find, they are out there fighting the good fight for AMD. But the actual bulk of people who buy these products, they aren't them. They are buying a PC/HW as a luxury and just want to get something awesome. And this is why AMD being the champion of perf/cost really doesn't do them so good. Not because 80% of people who buy PC stuff are die hard nvidia buyers. This idea is very..........immature. Not that you are or an attack on you. It's actually shared by many but I find it to be lacking in so many ways.

The reality is much much more complex. The situation AMD is in, its much more complex. Dropping prices might work well in some markets but if you go back through the years there is a clear trend for all to see, budget chip makers fail time and time again. There was once many brands of X86 CPUs but we have seen first hand that perf/cost is not the way to a bright future. It's certainly shouldn't be the primary metric you want to champion. It is not how you win in this market. It will not take you very far. It just will not.

Now, think. Why did these budget chip makers fail?
This is why your assertion that nvidia people just buy green no matter what fails. It's actually just as much on the shoulders of AMD and the fact that PC is a luxury. This is why Roy priced the original 7970 at 550$. It's a much more complex issue than most people seem to gather. Either this or they just don't take the time. For most people buying in this market, it has little to do with loving nvidia or being a blind fan. You have to understand that if you truly want to grasp the gravity of the situation AMD is in. Because it is a very rough place to be in. There is no easy fix. No quick way out.

I just think that things are much more fascinating when we actually take the time to understand things on a deeper level. We can reduce things down so far they eventually become worthless.

 

[octiceps]

Drivers can't fix a 4 year old GPU being their high end mobile GPU. They've been stuck on Pitcairn while Nvidia was using the faster GK104, and now much faster GM204. Software and drivers are half the equation, but drivers alone can't make old hardware compete with way better hardware.

Exactly. This is what people need to understand about mobile GPUs. There's no way sugarcoat it. For better and for worse, Nvidia simply has the better hardware.

 

[RussianSensation]

The only people buying on perf/cost are those on a budget.

You actually believe that? You usually make some very great comments but this is one of the worst comments you've ever made. I can't even believe you actually think that. You realize that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet could easily own the McLaren P1, LaFerrari, Porsche 918 and the Lamborghini Veneno but they don't because: (1) They don't care, (2) They might not want to pay for the performance/speed in the real world that they'll never use, (3) their current cars are good enough or their needs.

Did it ever occur to you that a lot of PC gamers have a big backlog of Steam/Origin/GOG/UPlay titles that might fly on cards 2-3 years old so even if they do have the funds to get multiple 980s? For those gamers it would not be worth it to get 980s today since by the time they get to the most demanding modern games, there will be a $550 card (or $1100 setup) that will smash a 980 into the ground in those titles - you know the merit of upgrading because the timing actually makes sense based on their gaming needs, not for bragging rights on the Internet.

A lot of people could easily afford 980 Tri-SLI but they don't buy that because it's a waste of $ for the games they play, for others, they won't support $550 for a mid-range product out of principle, and yet again for others, they won't buy a product that's less than X% faster than their existing part (where X is based on your own preferences, whether it's 15%, 35%, 75%, 3-5X faster, etc.)

You also make statements such as people who only buy on price/performance upgrade out of necessity. You never seem to realize that some people just don't like idea of wasting $ on products with diminishing returns or have different priorities. For example, one of my friends is going to get a brand new BMW X5M but he would never spend more than $100 on headphones because he doesn't care for high-fi audio enough, even though he could easily afford the $4000 STAX. What if you can afford 980/980 SLI and so on but you are currently enjoying Team Fortress or Counter Strike or LoL or SC2, say until TW3 comes out, which means buying a 980 now is well a total waste of $ for that gamer.

Even though there are die-hard, clueless AMD fans too, there are way less of those people and you know that. Just the hypocrisy NV fans show in regards to perf/watt is 100% evident by them skipping every single product in HD4000/5000 and 6000 series, buying Fermi, and waiting up to 6-9 months to get low and mid-range GTX600 cards when HD7000 was finished top-to-bottom by Spring 2012, yet NV fans waited for Fermi and Kepler's sub-670/680/690 cards.

Look just because you decided to pair a 2008 motherboard, $100 CPU with a late 2014 $550 NV GPU, doesn't mean the rest of the market is cheap because they won't embrace NV's market hyped and imo overpriced GTX980. In fact, some of us would have done sufficient research to realize that your CPU would perform nearly identical with a 970/290X and 980 because a more modern SB/HW i5/i7 is going to be 5-10% faster than your rig, which basically wipes out most of the advantage the 980 would have normally over 970/290X. Just because you decided to throw $550 at a 980 for 5% gains on your system over a 970/290X doesn't mean the rest of the PC gaming market is "cheap" or "upgrade on price/performance only out of necessity".

Ironically, your own rig supports krumme's point. You were willing to spend a whopping $275 more for 5% more performance on average over the 290X but were "too cheap" to actually get a modern CPU platform to take full advantage of that videocard. Here you are riding the high-horse making statements like those who prefer price/performance are strictly budget upgraders, without considering any other possibilities whatsoever as to why someone might find 980 a terrible buy even if they could afford to purchase it. You also didn't at all take into account that people's lives get impacted by their jobs, kids, personal events that could temporarily change their gaming habits whereupon even if they could afford 980 SLI, the rig would sit there and collect dust due to their specific real world situation.

--

Of course none of what you posted has anything to do with 900M overclocking. No one disputes that 900M is by far the superior gaming product for laptop gaming today over AMD's products. However, NV took away overcloking with a driver AFTER overclocking was promoted/advertized on various NV-GPU laptops. Had NV stated that starting with 900M series, they will no longer allow overclocking, gamers would make a conscious decision when buying their enthusiast laptops. Worst, this affects some 800M cards too. NV did not communicate in advance before NV-powered Kepler/Maxwell products became available that overclocking was off limits. It's naive to think that NV would be completely oblivious to the fact that MSi and Asus advertized overclocking as selling points for NV's Maxwell cards. Since this was advertized for months and years as far as 800M cards go, NV was 100% in agreement with this marketing and product feature strategy to PC laptop enthusiasts. Without any warning whatsoever, NV backpedaled. Simply said, professional companies do not act this way. This only builds on 970's fiasco and highlights that NV as a corporation has major communication issues at the very least. At worst, they are losing touch of the idea that consumer relations continue after the initial sale of the product.

Whether true or not, NV's handling of bumpgate, Kepler's drivers, 970 fiasco, and now 900M overclocking all add to the portrayal that NV is not so interested in maintaining good customer relationships with the consumer throughout the ownership of that particular product's life-cycle. AMD is not free of fault here with their disastrous HD7000 cross-fire frame times implementation, etc. but NV has been really on a roll when it comes to tarnishing their enthusiast brand image and reputation.

 

[nurturedhate]

NV has been really on a roll when it comes to tarnishing their enthusiast brand image and reputation.

The issue with that though is they still have a whole lot of equity to lose with a lot of people but change is coming and can be felt. Three years ago a thread like this simply would not exist in this manner. The Nvidia loyalists would have completely buried these concerns under an avalanche of anti AMD rhetoric and the thread would have been closed by page 4. High prices, slow roll out, bifurcation of generations, 970 vram, and killing of mobile oc'ing have begun to very slowly erode customer opinion. We are probably still a new generation and 2-3 years out from a truly meaningful measurement of damage but it is present and is happening.

Just for clarification.. I am not talking about market position swapping, that would require AMD pulling off something groundbreaking or Nvidia going full retard. What I am suggesting is the changing of opinion that Nvidia can do no wrong as a prevailing idea.

 

[notty22]

Even though there are die-hard, clueless AMD fans too, there are way less of those people and you know that. Just the hypocrisy NV fans show in regards to perf/watt is 100% evident by them skipping every single product in HD4000/5000 and 6000 series, buying Fermi, and waiting up to 6-9 months to get low and mid-range GTX600 cards when HD7000 was finished top-to-bottom by Spring 2012, yet NV fans waited for Fermi and Kepler's sub-670/680/690 cards.

What proof do you have of NV hypocrisy? Let's say none!
In denial with your drama driven rhetoric, which is bordering on sickening You fail to mention launch times and actual launch prices. You have become what you despise a hypocrite a deceitful double-speaker and twister of facts to prove points. And generally in rants of 100+ words or more as if that carries some weight when you proclaimed your mission was to even out nvidia/amd card ownerwhip. No matter the BS you have to creatively write to accomplish this, keep up your petty agenda. Poor form to say the least.





Personal attacks are against the rules. If you have to resort to name calling and personal attacks in the thread, then its time for your to step away from your computer.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[nurturedhate]

What proof do you have of NV hypocrisy? Let's say none!
In denial with your drama driven rhetoric, which is bordering on sickening You fail to mention launch times and actual launch prices. You have become what you despise a hypocrite a deceitful double-speaker and twister of facts to prove points. And generally in rants of 100+ words or more as if that carries some weight when you proclaimed your mission was to even out nvidia/amd card ownerwhip. No matter the BS you have to creatively write to accomplish this, keep up your petty agenda. Poor form to say the least.

Pretty simple really. 5/6 series were more power efficient than Fermi. It didn't matter then. Apparently it does now. Not sure how this wasn't obvious...

 

[DeathReborn]

I do wonder if there is a possiblity of another bumpgate happening if they let people OC too much.

 

[ginfest]

What proof do you have of NV hypocrisy? Let's say none!
In denial with your drama driven rhetoric, which is bordering on sickening You fail to mention launch times and actual launch prices. You have become what you despise a hypocrite a deceitful double-speaker and twister of facts to prove points. And generally in rants of 100+ words or more as if that carries some weight when you proclaimed your mission was to even out nvidia/amd card ownerwhip. No matter the BS you have to creatively write to accomplish this, keep up your petty agenda. Poor form to say the least.

I have to agree 100%! Day after day this guy's post scream agenda. How he became an "Elite" member, which used to be reserved for respected, helpful members is beyond me.
Anyway, the old AT is long gone, too bad.




Member callouts are against the rules. If you have to resort to name calling in the thread, then its time for your to step away.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[nurturedhate]

I do wonder if there is a possiblity of another bumpgate happening if they let people OC too much.

Wonder which would be worse, knowingly releasing bad parts and not saying anything or knowingly shafting manufacturers and consumers just because...

 

[octiceps]

I do wonder if there is a possiblity of another bumpgate happening if they let people OC too much.

Bumpgate didn't happen because of OC

 

[nurturedhate]

Bumpgate didn't happen because of OC

Correct, but a solder joint could fail if temps were higher than what nvidia was expecting. New knowledge could have came back showing that the solder used would not tolerate the temperatures that they thought it would.

New drivers could indeed limit the package's thermals. Someone with a 9xxm, preferably a 980m, who hasn't updated their drivers yet should run a nice heavy gpu benchmark and note the frequency and voltage and then rerun it with the new drivers and see if stock numbers change.

 

[octiceps]

Maxwell doesn't have a thermal problem to begin with though. The ones affected by the clockblock are probably the coolest running mobile GPUs ever.

 

[nurturedhate]

Maxwell doesn't have a thermal problem to begin with though. The ones affected by the clockblock are probably the coolest running mobile GPUs ever.

All the more reason to cheap out on solder. Running cool compared to other mgpu's and running hotter than the solder is designed for are two completely separate things.

Again, I am not saying this is why Nvidia did what they did. I don't know why they did what they did.

 

[2is]

Bumpgate didn't happen because of OC

It would help if you understood what you're reading. That's not what he's saying.

 

[ocre]

cut

It's extremely obvious you didn't understand any of my post. But then you go on putting words in my mouth to try to make up a page full of stuff I didn't say.

Nothing remotely even close to what I said.

It's cool if you just didn't get it but you literally twisted, manipulated, and totally turn things into some vastly different. Do you think it is acceptable to put words into my mouth or to try to make a mockery of me personally? is it acceptable for you to make outrageous claims that I am gloating or was it "riding the high horse" which you totally invented because you must have an issue with me owning a 980. I actually feel like that is like a personal attack. i did not once bring up my personal video card. sadly, you are so caugh up on your rampage that you failed to realize that my post wasnt even aimed towards desktop gpus. we were discussing laptops, cpus, and apus. The only actual product I brought up was x86 CPUs. I honestly have no idea how you got so far off track here but.....

if you have a personal vendetta against me for because I own a gtx980, I would gladly discuss this with you through pm. For the record, I have never ever recommended anyone buy a gtx980. I don't spend hours on forums preaching people buy anything. I don't go around preaching everyone buy performance per dollar gpus nor do I preach that people should buy high dollar products with the bigger brand name. I seldom recommend a product to anyone, ever. Even when they take the time to start a thread asking for suggestions.

"Riding the high horse"????

What an acusation. Especially to a guy that has said multiple times, people should buy what they want to buy. I don't push any products on anyone and I certainly haven't been going around riding the high horse because I have a 980. Unlike many, I couldn't care less what people buy. How someone spends their money matters none to me, I do not care the least little bit. And that is where me and you are way way different.

I merely post here to share my thoughts and my ideas about things Which often is not the over simplistic view that seems to spread so easily. Mine often have many elements and factors at play. I post as an observer and not a pusher of any product. my post are of my ideas from my perspective with multiple layers. Sometimes I know they might not be easy to gather but it simply amasses me what you managed to get out of this one.

 

[Majcric]

The price performance ratio of certain cards. Come on it's time to give it a break.

 

[96Firebird]

It's extremely obvious you didn't understand any of my post. But then you go on putting words in my mouth to try to make up a page full of stuff I didn't say.

Nothing remotely even close to what I said.

It's cool if you just didn't get it but you literally twisted, manipulated, and totally turn things into some vastly different. Do you think it is acceptable to put words into my mouth or to try to make a mockery of me personally? is it acceptable for you to make outrageous claims that I am gloating or was it "riding the high horse" which you totally invented because you must have an issue with me owning a 980. I actually feel like that is like a personal attack. i did not once bring up my personal video card. sadly, you are so caugh up on your rampage that you failed to realize that my post wasnt even aimed towards desktop gpus. we were discussing laptops, cpus, and apus. The only actual product I brought up was x86 CPUs. I honestly have no idea how you got so far off track here but.....

if you have a personal vendetta against me for because I own a gtx980, I would gladly discuss this with you through pm. For the record, I have never ever recommended anyone buy a gtx980. I don't spend hours on forums preaching people buy anything. I don't go around preaching everyone buy performance per dollar gpus nor do I preach that people should buy high dollar products with the bigger brand name. I seldom recommend a product to anyone, ever. Even when they take the time to start a thread asking for suggestions.

"Riding the high horse"????

What an acusation. Especially to a guy that has said multiple times, people should buy what they want to buy. I don't push any products on anyone and I certainly haven't been going around riding the high horse because I have a 980. Unlike many, I couldn't care less what people buy. How someone spends their money matters none to me, I do not care the least little bit. And that is where me and you are way way different.

I merely post here to share my thoughts and my ideas about things Which often is not the over simplistic view that seems to spread so easily. Mine often have many elements and factors at play. I post as an observer and not a pusher if any product. my post are of my ideas from my perspective with multiple layers. Sometimes I know they might not be easy to gather but it simply amasses me what you managed to get out of this one.

Great post.

He's tried putting words in my mouth too, and got called out for that as well. Too bad he has to make things up to push his agenda, kinda sad really... :thumbsdown:

 

[octiceps]

I have to agree 100%! Day after day this guy's post scream agenda. How he became an "Elite" member, which used to be reserved for respected, helpful members is beyond me.
Anyway, the old AT is long gone, too bad.

Callout deleted