Geforce FX 5200 for TV out or Geforce 3 or ATI 9000...some thoughts please...

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Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0
It uses the Conexant CX25871 TV processor chip

Just checked it and it is the above mentioned chip, at 1024x768 its still very crisp (but tiny text) and the ability of tvtool to fit it to the tv screen (no black edges) is excellent. Its a shame really because I would like to replace it with something faster but unless I get a similar picture then no way. i would post a picture but I have nowhere to upload it.

any help? digit life article
 

BuddyHolly

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2000
1,078
0
0
Guspaz, I think I may be confused, but I go through most of my life that way, so I am used to it. I mostly do not want to go to the RGB output, I just want S-video out of the card. I have looked a little bit at the ATI doggle, but it mostly comes on much higher dollar cards. I am very tempted to go with a AIW card from ATI so I get the tv tuner.
Mingon, thanks for checking and rubbing it in that you have the card I want.
I went to 3 local computer repair/sales shops. None of them ahd a card with the Conexant chip or any dedicated TV out chip. Many had the pad where the chip could go on the PCB.
One shop did have a used ATI 7500 AIW card with no cables, software or remote for $100. That was as interesting as it got, which of course I said "no thanks" to.
About the only thing I have left to me locally is to track down a friend who bought my PNY Geforce 3 Ti200 a while back and see which chip it had. Or at least borrow it for a day to see what I think of the TV out. I thougth about going by the local Circuit City and buying a ATI 9000 to check the image quality and put against every card I can lay my hands on since most of the computers I have built in the past few years used Nvidia cards.
Well, keep up the comments and I will keep up the quest. Maybe someone will get something useful out of this thread. I have learned a great deal, very little of which does me any good since I can't get the hardware I want.
Thanks everyone..
 

milesfides

Junior Member
May 15, 2003
6
0
0
AWESOME! There is somebody out there who has the same problem! Don't give up man...

I have a few questions:

1. can pc dvd playback rival stand alone dvd players? How does the quality really match up? something to do with bit DAC?
2. why no mention of the geforce4 ti600? or the new geforce and radeon video cards? do they provide better dvd playback on tv-out?
3. My TV-OUT dvd playback looks kind of like crap. Especially in dark scenes. Can I possiblly get DVD stand-alone player quality on my tv-out/SONY TV?

Any suggestions?

-------

My setup:

P4 1.7ghz
512 rdram
geforce2 mx440 w/ tv-out

running an S-video cable to:
Sony Trinitron 27" (not hdtv or wega, this is the late 90s model)

software: I use tvtool and PowerDVD XP.

Thanks!
 

Guspaz

Member
Mar 14, 2003
142
0
0
If I'm not in error, the ATI component dongle is available for the Radeon 8500, 8500 AIW, 9500, and 9700.

NewEgg has an 8500 (LE) for 70$, and ATI themselves charge 29$ for the dongle. I'd email ATI to make sure the dongle works with the LE model though.
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0
3. My TV-OUT dvd playback looks kind of like crap. Especially in dark scenes. Can I possiblly get DVD stand-alone player quality on my tv-out/SONY TV?

have you enabled the digital vibrance control?
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
I thought ATI pretty much always ruled the TV out/VIVO wars with their "all-in-wonder" cards... maybe that's changed?
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
2. why no mention of the geforce4 ti600? or the new geforce and radeon video cards? do they provide better dvd playback on tv-out?

Because the 4600 is specifically designed to be a 3D workhorse... DVD playback doesn't need the high GPU and memory clocks of that card. Hell... DVD playback probably doesn't even need the power of a GeForce2...

Best recommendation I can make is search everywhere for reviews on the image quality... not the 3D performance. What you all know as good 3D video cards may be absolute junk for TV-out type stuff.
 

BuddyHolly

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2000
1,078
0
0
Guspaz, I have looked at the ATI 8500 and the doggle. I emailed ATI but have not heard back on that one yet. Searching on the web for that answer is a mixed bag. Good idea, I will have to persue it.
I am not necessarily looking for a "cheap" card, but I don't want to spend more than $100 for one, mostly because I desperately need a new hard drive for this computer, but the TNT 2 is just about dead.
I have been looking at the AIW cards, but the cheapest ones are the 7500 based cards and they go for about $130, which I feel is kinda high for what you get.
I would really like to keep this discussion going more for everyone reading along. I keep getting PM's asking me specific stuff.
Milesfides, I was very pleased with the look of the DVD playback on my crappy old TNT2 card. I think it was as good as my Sony stand alone DVD player.
I guess you would not recommend the Geforce 2 MX for TV output.
From all this, I guess it breaks down this way...
1. The Geforce 4 mx and the new FX5200 use handle TV out on chip. I have heard good and bad things about these, but overall it sounds promising.
2. The Geforce 3/4 with dedicated TV output chips such as Phillips or Conexant. This seems the best route, but getting your hands on one of them seems like a very low percentage crapshoot. The GeForce 4 is also a bit much too much for this computer at this time.
3. The ATI 8500. Also mixed reviews. Some have the Rage Theater chip that some like, some don't like. Overall a good card, but no real feedback on the TV out.
4. The ATI 9000 series. Overall good reviews and a nice card. I am kinda leaning toward the 9000 Ultra, maybe with the doggle if it will work.

One note about the ATI cards, they seem to have 2 Ramdac's so they can output to a TV and a monitor at the same time. This is not a huge deal for me, but may mean something to someone.

As stated before, the Conexant CX25871 chip is the same one used by the X Box for output. I have seen DVD on those and it was very impressive.

Well, if anyone has more experience with any of these cards, please weigh in and let us know. Once again, thanks for the comments.
 

BuddyHolly

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2000
1,078
0
0
Good news, or so I think. I tracked down the PNY Geforce 3 ti200 I sold to a friend about a year ago. He said it has the Conexeant chip that I am looking for.
I am going to borrow it on Sunday and see what I think. I may just get him a new Geforce 3 and switch with him.
I would do it tomorrow, but I am riding in the Mt. Mitchell Assault, a 102 mile bicycle ride to the hightest point east of the Mississippi River. It was ranked the 4th hardest single day ride in the world last year. Wish me luck, but if I never post again, send floweres.
I will let everyone know when I get the Geforce 3 and what I think.
Keep up the replies...
Thanks,
 

milesfides

Junior Member
May 15, 2003
6
0
0
well, good luck, but i found some info about the video decoder/encoder chips:

Quality of dvd playback, in order:

1. Philips SAA7108E
2. Conexant CX25871
3. Conexant Bt868/869

Strangely, the philips chip is supposedly "way better" than the conexant, even though the philips has a 9-bit video processor, lower than the conexant's 10-bit video processor (I do believe that the standard for stand-alone dvd players is 10-bit)

I personally haven't watched a dvd through xbox, and I'm not sure if the dvd playback would be the same even though they use the same chip.

But I will continue on my quest to save money and not buy another stand-alone dvd player!
I'm going to try tweaking with nvidia nview settings and tv tool settings; maybe that would improve the picture.
 

kauffmbe

Member
Jun 18, 2001
97
0
0
Wow, I am confused. I constantly am hearing conflicting reports over which Tv-out is better. I have a Radeon 7500 and the TV out to my 32" tv via s-Video is not bad, but definately not great. The colors are good, but the resolution is a little lacking and the sharpness definately needs some work. I was surprised by this as so many people say the output of the Radeons rival even very good STB DVD players, but I don't see this to be true. Some have said that the 8500 and up have better TV-out, but I have also seen reports all over Rage3d.com regarding serious bugs in the 8500 output, particularly at 800x600. My biggest pet peeve with the 7500 though is the lack of a fully adjustable overscan, which plagues all ATI cards. With regards to the Geforces, reports are abslolutely all over theplace, ranging from great to awful. The last post listed the Philips chip as far superior to the Conextant, but over at TVtool, they state the opposite, even recommending the horrrible Chrontel chip over the Philips, with the Conextant cx25 series being far in the lead. So what gives? Any more opinions about this subject. I hav heard that the older Matrox cards are simply stunning, but since they don't have any 3d capabilities I would have to get a PCI card and run it with my ATI, using the Matrox for TV only. I don't know if I really feel like dealing with the hassle of setting that up.
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0
Well I am upgrading my geforce 3 to a ti4200 so anyone interested PM if your UK
 

milesfides

Junior Member
May 15, 2003
6
0
0
Hello All! I have discovered some interesting things. First, I am a registered tvtool member, and I saw that claim on tvtool too. I think it's a great program, but that 'benchmark test' was a little shady. Did you see how he conducted that test? it also seemed kind of outdated...strangely unprofessional, but hey, it seems like it's the brainchild of one guy! Well first, the Philips chip is found only on some geforce ti- models or msi geforce cards (don't ask me, msi must have some commercial relationship with philips). So the philips is found on mostly high-end cards, whereas the majority of tvtool (poll on the site) said they had geforce2 (low end) cards, which RARELY has the philips chip. This seems kinda self serving, since tvtool is relevant only to mainly geforce owners, being that conexant chips are mostly found on geforce (lower end) cards, whereas philips is most often found on radeon cards, ahem...well, i guess you can draw your own conclusions...

SOLUTION:
ANYWAYS, for pure quality, plain and simple, I have decided to go the seperate decoder route. On ebay, I bought a realmagic hollywood plus decoder card (10 bucks), which is a dedicated mpeg2 dvd card. This is supposed to kill this argument, because hardware decoders don't tax the cpu to decode, and it's a dedicated hard worker. Installing it was pretty easy w/ the new drivers from sigmadesigns site, and I have to say, it looks TONS better than the combo of geforce2 decode and tvtool doing the output. (Tvtool still is sweet for video games and such...it's so damn CLEAR.) Finally, via hollywood plus, it actually looks like a real dvd player picture! No kidding!

Now I'm working on hooking up the dolby digital via my soundblaster live to my receiver, seems like some work, but looks like finally i'm going to have a real substitute for a dvd player!
 

JJSuperman

Senior member
Sep 24, 2000
262
0
0
I had a Geforce 2 GTS with tv out, sucked. Radeon 8500 (retail not le) has been INCREADIBLE. I can't imagine the quality getting better as it SMOKES my xbox for playing DVDs (in terms of image quality). My 2 cents.

Jared
 

McCarthy

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,567
0
76
My playback setup:
Homebuilt case, KT133A/AMD 1600+/Radeon 7000
Wasn't impressed with video, put my Radeon 9700 in there. Same output quality.

ATI gives you full screen width, but the image is letterboxed. With a small hack you can enable overscan which fills the screen. Problem is the size adjustments no longer work and I lost the whole top/bottom "newschannel" scrollbar areas - it's an over-overscan for me. But for watching letterboxed video, ATI is fine.

nVidia has this boxed default setup, black borders on all sides. TVtool fixes it. That's the big complaint I found when looking for tv out comparisons/quality. Really don't know that any of the nVidia cards are worse than ATI for color/contrast, suspect that default boxed display is where many people have formed their opinions.

As for quality, every video card I've used so far has SUCKED. No, my tv isn't the greatest, but that's just as well. I get much better quality recompressing movies to SVCD and playing them back in the DVD player than using the TV out of either Radeon above. My GF2 was really bad, worse than the Canopus Total3D (Riva 128) I had been using. Heck, would still use it if there were W2K/XP drivers. So far I haven't seen anything else do better; the Radeons are just about the same. And at least with the Total3D I could get it full screen without doing a huge overscan which makes that old card better for full screen playback.

Problem is the comparison is "ATV vs nVidia vs Matrox vs whatever". Blind leading the blind though. Wouldn't say a Radeon 9700 is some 'old piece of **** card', but my 1984 Emerson VCR eats it for video quality.

Ready to try a scan converter. Put that playback box together to use as a PVR too, but between the quality loss through the cheap, but handy, Leadtek Winfast TV card and the TV out it's damn near useless. It's watchable, sorta. But then do A/B comparisons direct off the sat and compare and it's nauseating - and that's live playback, not even compressed capture. For watching something I've aquired in Divx I'm better off converting it to play back in the cheapy Apex DVD player. Whole process has been disappointing for me.

But maybe I'll learn something after hitting this little subscribe checkbox.
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0
I have just swaped my 25" TV for a 32" widescreen and the picture quality was not as good as it was previously, But I have also just swapped my Geforce 3 for a ti4200. The Card is an XFX (pine) 128mb and has the philips 7104 decoder chip. After some small adjustments to enable digital vibrance and (with tvtool) adjust the flicker, colour and contrast I again have a tv out signal @ 800x600 that I would call very high quality. I am typing as we speak on this combination and I am having no problems reading the text from my leather sofa approx 3 metres (9 foot) away from the tv.
 

kauffmbe

Member
Jun 18, 2001
97
0
0
Digital Vibrance works on the Philips chips? On the aforementioned TV Tool comparison, one of the main reason they said to get the conexant card was taht it could do digital vibrance while the other chips could not. I guess that was wrong too. How is the sharpness with the Philips? With my Radeon 7500, I can read text at 800x600, but the shrarpness isn't there, either for desktop of for video. Obviously I'm not comparing the output to my monitor, but just a good STB DVD player.
 

Guspaz

Member
Mar 14, 2003
142
0
0
I thought that Digital Vibrance was just the driver changing the saturation settings, among other things. Why would certain TV out chipsets not support it?
 

milesfides

Junior Member
May 15, 2003
6
0
0
Well, opinions, expectations vary - looks like some are very happy with radeon while others are severely disappointed - this could be due to different chips, who knows? model no.'s aren't enough fellas, go open up the computer and look at the chip, and compare. if you say it SUCKS, identify that sorry chip. likewise for the opposite.

Also, poor picture quality can be broken down into many different problems:

artifacts, contrast, shadowing, hue, etc.

my chip: chrontel ch7007. tvtool actually rated this chip as good picture quality w/ fine color shades. I would disagree - I think anybody (many people have commented on this when watching dvds on my tv out) would say that the picture sharpness is decent, but the color as well as light/dark contrast, especially in dark scenes, is very poor, thus very noticeable, distracting artifacts remain on the screen. I'm not nit-picking here - Nobody could sit through and not get distracted by these problems.

With RealMagic Hollywood Plus, the picture almost seems to be *almost* DVD player quality. I say 'almost' because now I'm paranoid about picture quality. I get much better contrast, better 'dark scene' color, almost unnoticeable artifacts...If you have 10 bucks and a spare PCI slot, you might want to look into it. Much cheaper than getting another 2 video cards and comparing philips/conexant chips and deciding for yourself. I don't want to use tv-tool as a resource, but if they say that my chrontel ch7007 is better quality than the philips, I think hollywood plus would be better than any chip out there.

Also, if you have problems with sharpness, you might want to look at the contrast control on your own tv, or perhaps use an S-video cable. Otherwise, since NTSC is 800X600, the culprit must be that chip on your video card.
 

kauffmbe

Member
Jun 18, 2001
97
0
0
Actually, not to nitpick, but NTSC is actually about 480 lines maximum vertical (480i). Anything more than that is actually downscaled by the chip in the video card. I do use the s-video out and the TV is properly calibrated. The sharpness more than anything is what bothers me.
 

BuddyHolly

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2000
1,078
0
0
Wow, this got hot again all the sudden. Well, since the last post I have gotten my hands on a few cards so I have a little base to compare.
The first up is my TNT2 that I was complaining about in the first place. It has gotten better, but it still is not great. It looks ok, but is not very sharp and the colors are washed out. The text is very bad no matter what I try.

GeForce 3 with a Conexant Bt869krf chip- I could not get the damn thing to work correctly. No idea why, but it did the hippy hippy shake like a card does when it is set beyond the monitors resolution. I was running it at the same resolution and refresh rate as the TNT and it still did not work. I had it for a limited time, so I did not have the time to work with it.

Radeon 9700pro- Best of the bunch, but that should be expected. Playback was very good, colors much better. The text was very sharp and readable. It did not have a dedicated TV chip that I could find.

Geforce 4 4200- to be continued...I will edit this one, but I am borrowing my old GF 4 back to see what I think of the TV out.

Now every one please bug the hell out Anand and his fine crew so they will do an indepth article on this. I really wish there was a good source other than all the hearsay.
The person above is a good example. They talked about the the ATI 8500. I have heard every thing in the world about this card. One person says it is great. One says it is the worst thing in the world. One more will say that it won't work at all. For each of these views you will find ten people with the same views, which seems a bit hard to believe.
Keep this at the top of the video forum and maybe the gods of computers will bless us with a review...
Thanks for the input...

Oh, by the way, I survived the Mt Mitchell Bicycle ride...102 miles in the cold rain. And snow, and sleet at the top...not something I would recommend...
 

milesfides

Junior Member
May 15, 2003
6
0
0
kauff,

you're right about the ntsc resolution for non-hdtvs, i was getting confused with the monitor/tv res. but for sharpness, you might also want to check out your software dvd player - some do better jobs than others, deinterlacing, comb filters, also check out the force bob options as well, they might help. your tv might also be the culprit, in the deinterlacing. anyways, hometheaterhifi did a good review on the software dvd players out there, so you might want to try different ones.
 
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