Geforce FX

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Killrose
9800 will be for sale in late April. NV35 "might" be white papered then, but no way available.

I think they said late July for the NV35.

 

[Rogozhin]

I usually try out the competeing card and then sell the one that doesn't hold its value.

I did that with the g4s and radeon 8500

I would do it with the fx except I'm short on cash at the moment.

ROgo

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
More than six months...and counting. Seems to me you seem a little far too biased towards nVidia to notice the reality of the situation, nVidia lost time and they are behind. Taking back the lead will not be easy, nor will merely catching up be a walk in the park.

Yes, they're behind, but surely you don't believe nVidia is at fault for TSMC's inability to fab at 130nm do you? nVidia has already taken steps to remedy the situation though by inking a deal with IBM. This clears any potential hurdles at 90nm if they choose that route with NV40 or NV50, and at the same time, opens up possibilities far beyond TSMC's capabilities such as SOI and low-K fab processes.

Also, what makes you think nVidia is behind? Product R&D is a sunk cost that is planned out years ahead of working silicon samples. nVidia has the capital and the cash to continue aggressively fund R&D, ATi does not. The disappointing realization that R350 is nothing more than a higher yield R300 is only a sign of things to come. Look at ATi's latest press releases and comments to investors. They don't mention R400 at all, but they do mention that they've overspent on R&D; costs that will be cut back until later in the year. Despite strong sales of their R300 cores (1 million seems to be the fashionable figure, though inaccurate), ATi still lost money this past quarter. Granted, they would have been close to breaking even w/out all the legal settlements and charges resulting from plant shutdowns, but I'm sure undercutting their margins with R300 cores on $150 parts didn't help either. Target margins of 38% before investing again in R&D are estimated in CY Q3, as their current margin realization is currently only 30%.

On the other hand, nVidia has already shown working samples of NV35 behind closed doors at CeBit (Anand himself has seen working silicon). Xbit's recent trip to nVidia HQ in Santa Clara had pics of NV35 samples going through Q&A as well as entire trays of NV35 chips. They've already begun simulating NV50, so I think its a bit premature to think nVidia is behind simply b/c they missed a product cycle through no fault of their own (other than their desire to be the industry leader in pushing 130nm). nVidia still holds a considerable market leadership position (33% to ATi's 21%), which will only be bolstered by their low-end DX9 FX parts (5200 - 5600). I personally think those cards aren't worth the silicon they're printed on, but to Joe Average user, they'll fit the bill perfectly.

Chiz

 

[nRollo]

"On the other hand, nVidia has already shown working samples of NV35 behind closed doors at CeBit (Anand himself has seen working silicon). Xbit's recent trip to nVidia HQ in Santa Clara had pics of NV35 samples going through Q&A as well as entire trays of NV35 chips. They've already begun simulating NV50, so I think its a bit premature to think nVidia is behind simply b/c they missed a product cycle through no fault of their own (other than their desire to be the industry leader in pushing 130nm). nVidia still holds a considerable market leadership position (33% to ATi's 21%), which will only be bolstered by their low-end DX9 FX parts (5200 - 5600). I personally think those cards aren't worth the silicon they're printed on, but to Joe Average user, they'll fit the bill perfectly. "

Word.

"Seems to me you seem a little far too biased towards nVidia to notice the reality of the situation"
Err, I use a 9700Pro, that I don't plan on replacing till something that significantly outperforms it comes along?

"The only thing that troubles me about you is you seem disturbingly gleeful dreaming of an NV35 crushing the 9800 Pro as soon as April."
Only an ATI employee WOULDN'T be? I buy whatever is best when I upgrade, I don't have any "Jimmy Joe Baker Pickup Truck" mentality about computer parts. ("Gol'Darn Ford- Fix Or Repair Daily! Heehaw!" isn't too far from " compare it to the tyan card that is the latest revision running 400/400. It will eat that pos fx for breakfast in every bench you throw at it-plus it costs the same as the fx. Hee haw")

 

[Rogozhin]

"Gol'Darn Ford- Fix Or Repair Daily! Heehaw!" isn't too far from " compare it to the tyan card that is the latest revision running 400/400. It will eat that pos fx for breakfast in every bench you throw at it-plus it costs the same as the fx. Hee haw"

Hm, a satirist.

The 9700 is not even in the same ballpark as a ford. If you are gonna use that anology might as well apply it to the G2, G3 and G4, three generations of "fix or repair daily."

The 9800 is the first refresh of a new tech. And in these benchies without the cat 3.3s it still kicks the crap out of the fx. With the 3.3s and a hypothetical 30% improvement the NV35 is going to have a rough time catching up to that focus sv.

PS

You can get a supercharger on that focus, its called the tyan 9800.

rogo

You must be sophist roppo.

 

[Rogozhin]

Sorry Dionisodorous here is your link..

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDM5LDM=

rogo

Look the name up since you're a clone of those that use that (pseudo) rational.

 

[Rogozhin]

Just saw this new review.

here is a quote from the conclusion.

"While the 9800 series VPU touts many advancements, the biggest addition to the line up is the stronger clock speeds of the card when using it to play the latest and greatest video games of today. Our synthetic pixel shader testing would seem to suggest that the ATI 9800 VPU is also aimed at catering to games that are not yet even on the market. This of course might ease anyone's mind that is looking for a video card solution that is "future proof".

One thing is for sure, ATI's new 9800 series VPU will deliver the most frames per second while also providing image quality that is second to none."

Remember that they are using the 3.2s and the 3.3s should be out within the next two weeks and are supposed to increase performance by 30%.

Rumor has it that ATI is saving the 3.3 drivers for the release of the 9800.

PS

And why hasn't nvidia released any WHQL certified drivers since december?

Just curious. The Sophist Roppo, do you know why?

rogo

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Rogozhin
Just saw this new review.
One thing is for sure, ATI's new 9800 series VPU will deliver the most frames per second while also providing image quality that is second to none."

:yawn; Sort through the rest of the misguided Fanboy comments to learn the truth.

Remember that they are using the 3.2s and the 3.3s should be out within the next two weeks and are supposed to increase performance by 30%.

I think you are confused. The 3.2's are already optimized for the 9800pro, the 30% performance increases are going to benefit the 9700pro (and probably to a lesser extent, the 9500pro and non-pro due to their lower bandwidth).

Rumor has it that ATI is saving the 3.3 drivers for the release of the 9800.

Which is no surprise at all, its called artificial performance management through drivers. They're going to wait until all the 9800/9600pro reviews are done and published before unveiling a magical new driver that yields a 30% improvement to older parts. In the end, the 9800pro appears to be 30% faster at equal clockspeeds, but in reality, its a case of ATi holding back performance to give a perceived improvement to a newer product. In the business world, this type of activity is illegal; its like earnings management. Executives stow away a contract or another source of revenue for a rainy day to make the overall picture look better.

And why hasn't nvidia released any WHQL certified drivers since december?

Is there a need for one? There haven't been any ground-breaking software/game, OS, product releases that would require a new driver. The GF4 is a year old and based largely on the GF3's architecture. The card is simply mature and exhibits none of the problems which require ATi to release monthly patch updates. I'm not complaining though, as each new Catalyst has made my 9700pro less problematic. Once the GF FX series hits the market in full force, there should be a steady stream of patch updates that will provide for bug fixes as well as improve performance (I wouldn't expect any dramatic improvements for older cards like the GF2,3,4 series though).

Just curious. The Sophist Roppo, do you know why?

Just curious. Who's Roppo?

Chiz

:yawn; Sort through the rest of the misguided Fanboy comments to learn the truth.

 

[nRollo]

Rogo:
"The 9700 is not even in the same ballpark as a ford."
That's not really the point though, is it? The point is silly fanboys attach misplaced brand loyalty to companys whose concern for them stretches exactly as far as their wallet. Your "eat that pos fx " comment was hyperbole.

Gee, here's the 9800 Pro bested at all resolutions by FX

1-3fps faster is "eaten"?!

FX wins every res again

Since when does 10% in 3dmark matter?

"Look the name up since you're a clone of those that use that (pseudo) rational."
LOL- I hope you're not just wasting your parent's money on philosophy and lit courses. I remember a comic in the campus paper when I was pursuing my first undergrad degree:
The student graduates with his BA-Philosophy, ends up a fry cook at McDonald's. So he goes back for his MA-Philosophy, ends up a fry cook at McDonald's. So he goes back for his PhD in philosophy, the last frame shows him in a paper hat with a shaggy beard with the caption, "Sad, hateful, bitter- but a darn good fry cook".
The moral?
In the real world, no one really cares who "Dionisodorous" is, so I didn't bother looking it up. LOL- what I wouldn't give to be 20 again, quaffing ale at the union, debating with my cronies, and feeling very self important. Enjoy it while it lasts.
If you're an adult, can people stand you?

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: Rollo
"By the way, NV35 looks to be much closer than anyone expected, as digit-life/xbit claims in their 9800pro review that both should debut at the same time in the second half of April"

LOL- the ATI Faithful who've been having so much fun dissing the FX would be in 3dfx-land all over again if nVidia released the nV35 in April and it stomped the 9800.

Given Nvidia's track record for hitting their release dates, I would be suprised in ANY NV35 products show up on retail shelves before late JUNE.

 

[MadTom]

Originally posted by: AunixM3
"Less noise from ATi."

Do you even KNOW how loud ATi's card is?...Didn't think so.... The Gainward FX is only 6dB louder than the 9700Pro, a difference I'm sure most won't be able to notice.

~Aunix

Only 6dB??? Do you know what 6dB means - it means that something is subjectively 4 times louder; since 3dB is double and on a logarithmic scale 6dB is in reality 4 times louder. Got it?

However, I would be happy with having any of the new cards...

 

[Richdog]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Bunny:
"Oops, guess it takes nVidia 6 months to merely catch up and then an additional 3 or so to take the lead while ATI's invested little in their flag ships considering how similar the R350 is to the R300, they've had all that time and to assume they've done nothing with it but make the R300 a little faster and possible a little more effecicent, lofl."
Big deal. Let's see: ATI has had arguably the "best" card for 6 months out of the last 5 years. Woohoo. They are the past and future KING! No one can ever stand up to their genius!

CHshica:
"Simply put the FX line provides less than expected performance by far, and contrary to what you say here, the only benchmarks it actually does outperform the R9700/R9800 pro cards in is when AA/AF are disabled at resolutions above 1024"
You are overlooking the obvious and putting your own (meaningless) conditions on the equation:
1. A card doesn't have to be significantly faster because it came out 6 months later. All that matters is that it offer roughly comparable performance at the time you buy, which the FX does.

2. FPS players often don't care much about FSAA
3. ATI cards have more driver and hardware compatibility issues, period.

Lonyo:
"In Unreal Tournament, AF makes it soo much better, I get such bad texture blending, I'd rather have AF/AA speed than raw res speed. Now, if only I could afford a 9500PRO. "
Really? Your system isn't HALF powerful enough to play UT2003 at 1280 with AA/FF. I have a P4 2.53/512 PC2700/R9700Pro, and I play UT2003 at 10X7X32, 4X Aniso.
Why? Because I like to win, and it screws me up when UT2003 jerks and stutters using quality AF/AA settings.

Hmm nice friendly post... p*nis

 

[blahblah]

Originally posted by: AunixM3
"Less noise from ATi."

Do you even KNOW how loud ATi's card is?...Didn't think so.... The Gainward FX is only 6dB louder than the 9700Pro, a difference I'm sure most won't be able to notice.

~Aunix

You do realize that our ear perceives a 6db increase as almost twice as loud as before. (In general 7 to 10 db is perceived as doubling sound).

Anyways, the Gainward FX that's being referred to is available in the US for over 600 Euro. That's a lot of money to spend on a video card. (Yes, it does come with sound ware and a sound card, but still)

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: Rollo

CHshica:
"Simply put the FX line provides less than expected performance by far, and contrary to what you say here, the only benchmarks it actually does outperform the R9700/R9800 pro cards in is when AA/AF are disabled at resolutions above 1024"
You are overlooking the obvious and putting your own (meaningless) conditions on the equation:
1. A card doesn't have to be significantly faster because it came out 6 months later. All that matters is that it offer roughly comparable performance at the time you buy, which the FX does.
2. FPS players often don't care much about FSAA
3. ATI cards have more driver and hardware compatibility issues, period.

1. Irrelevant, as I said earlier, it is not even roughly comparable.
2. You are not all FPS players, so do not presume to speak for them all. I am an FPS player, and I personally DO care about FSAA, which invalidates your statement in and of itself.
3. Yes, they have more driver and hardware compatibility issues. What does this have to do with the GeForce FX being lackluster? NOTHING.

Rollo, if you're going to try and argue a point, the LEAST you could do is at least keep on arguing the point that was made, and not some phantom point that was never brought up.

 

[chsh1ca]

EDIT: Removed the redundant answer to the obviously not-knowledgeable person who posted regarding the 6db difference between card's volume...

 

[blahblah]

I guess people always going to associated putting donw FX as putting down NVidia.

Look, for all those pro FX people out there, let us just consider some fundementals. Like not say GF FX is bad or good, but simply compare it to the competition 9700 Pro on the following criteria.

1. Price
2. Performance
3. Heat/Noise
4. Driver Stability

Whatever else you want to put in here.

After all that, if you can honest tell me that you will

1. Buy this card today over the 9700 Pro
2. Recommand it to your friend over the 9700 Pro

Then by all means, praise this card.

If not, then recognize the fact that this card simply does not measure up to the competition. It would have been good 6 month ago, but today, with the price and heat/noise issues, I simply can not understand how anyone would in their right mind buy this. (Unless you are buying it because it has a NVidia logo)

Even Rollo, who is pretty pro FX has stated that he would not upgrade from his 9700 Pro. (If I misunderstood you, please correct me)

Yes, there is a perception of driver problem with ATI, and they are making great stride. Honestly, I use both NVidia & ATI cards and have never had problem myself.

I can only say that if have not tried ATI product before, try it now. Don't just take someone's word for problems. It could be driver or it could be user errors.

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
The GeForce FX line performs on par with a 6 month old card, for a lot more money. IMHO the slight gain in FPS over the R9800 pro in non-AA/AF modes at 1600x1200 is worthless when you consider that you're comparing ~135 FPS to ~120FPS. At those speeds, the difference is irrelevant.


The NV30 was delayed over 6 months yes?

Yep.

Well, from what I have seen (meaning the dozens of different benchmarks from just as many web sites) these cards, the ATI 9700 pro/9800 pro and GFFX 5800/Ultra are all Super Fast pieces of hardware. No doubt. If I owned both the top end cards from each company, I would constantly be swapping them back and forth in my rig just for fun.

Quite possibly. You have different goals obviously from someone like me, who actually values image quality, especially in this day and age where it's becoming possible to have excellent image quality while still at high speeds and decent resolution.

If I gave a GFFX 5800 Ultra to any devote ATI 9800 pro owner, they would say it was a piece of trash to my face, but would probably bust a rib to get it home and into their machine for a test drive.

Probably not actually, simply because they already have a card that is superior in AA/AF situations. It's not like the R9800 pro is crappy when it comes to non-AA/AF either.

And I think if I gave a 9800 pro to a GFFX 5800 Ultra owner, I think the very same thing would happen. I know I would in either direction. If you say that you wouldn't, it would be a lie.

Actually, no, it wouldn't. If I owned an R9800 Pro and someone GAVE me a GeForce FX5800 Ultra, I'd just put it in one of my other machines (or give/sell it to one of my gaming buddies).

I know that I am talking to a lot of walls here, but those with open minds know what's up.

Lol, yep, you tagged me right on, I'm a closed minded ATI freak...
That's why my last three cards were (in order) a GeForce 3 Ti200, an ATI Radeon 64MB VIVO, and a Voodoo 3 3000 AGP.
Bought the Geforce for linux support, bought the Radeon for the VIVO, and the V3 because it was pretty damned cheap and it rocked Quakeworld.

Why is it that someone simply disagrees that a card is 'better' than another card due to various factors (like, say, actual fact) and they get labeled as closed minded?

You talk of closed-mindedness, but have you ever actually read those benchmarks you claim to have? They all say the same thing: if you need some improvement without AA/AF, the GeForce FX5800 Ultra is currently best. If you need some improvment with AA/AF, the Radeon 9800 Pro is best.

Is my reasoning that 135 over 120 FPS is irrelevant somehow off? If so, please enlighten me as to why.

 

[Rogozhin]

Roppo.

Why do you use Ad Hominem when i was replying to your statement, not made in jest, of a ford being analagous to a radeon 9800?

I did not revert to questioning the validity of your statements by calling you names and making truculent hypothetical propostions about how inane your life is.

If anyone is spouting off diatribes that make them look like a fanboy it is certainly you..


Rogo

 

[Rogozhin]

Rollo

I will also argue the point that the majority of the people buying these high end cards are going to use at least 2xAA and 2x AF.

When you look at the rest of that article where AA and AF are enabled the fx looses badly. There is a poll over at nvnews.net regarding the usage of AA and AF. I believe it was something like %60 of the readers over there use a combination of AA and AF, and this doesn't take into acount the ratio of people using highend cards when compared to the percentages.


If you really do have a 9700 do you play games without using AA and AF? I highly doubt it.


Rogo

 

[sash1]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: AunixM3
"Less noise from ATi."

Do you even KNOW how loud ATi's card is?...Didn't think so.... The Gainward FX is only 6dB louder than the 9700Pro, a difference I'm sure most won't be able to notice.

~Aunix

Where is the Gainward card? Is it available yet and/or are there reviews that confirm this? Gainward = win

it's on their site. Should be released soon

~Aunix

 

[sash1]

Originally posted by: chsh1ca
EDIT: Removed the redundant answer to the obviously not-knowledgeable person who posted regarding the 6db difference between card's volume...

Stop trying to act smart--because from your earlier posts it is extremely evident you have no clue what you are talking about.

Prolly some l4m3r who works for best buy and thinks he knows something about computers.

~Aunix

 

[nRollo]

"Prolly some l4m3r who works for best buy and thinks he knows something about computers"
LOL

 

[nRollo]

"Hmm nice friendly post... p*nis "
LOL- I coud say the same..

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

More than six months...and counting. Seems to me you seem a little far too biased towards nVidia to notice the reality of the situation, nVidia lost time and they are behind.

Biased? thats funny. I am writing this post from my other rig which has an ATI Radeon 9500 pro. Biased? I think not.
I will admit though that I like Nvidia products better than ATI. I can say that because I own both. I guess.

Keys

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: AunixM3

Originally posted by: chsh1ca
EDIT: Removed the redundant answer to the obviously not-knowledgeable person who posted regarding the 6db difference between card's volume...

Stop trying to act smart--because from your earlier posts it is extremely evident you have no clue what you are talking about.

Prolly some l4m3r who works for best buy and thinks he knows something about computers.

~Aunix

lol that is like the pot calling the fire black.