Gender non-conforming teen sues South Carolina DMV

[werepossum]

Yea, I'm going to call bullshit on "I'd be adult about it and bear the burden." Also, no one has said anything about flamboyant drag this entire thread. That was a lot of words just to dodge the question.

What you don't seem to understand is gender dysphoria is real and people die over it. Just choosing to present yourself the way other people want isn't always an option if a person wants to keep on living with themselves. Why should transgender people ruin their lives spiraling into impossible depressions and possibly commit suicide over trying to make you comfortable?

Absolutely no one dies OF gender dysphoria, only indirectly due to depression brought on by their continued inability to force the world to behave as they wish. Nonetheless, I do agree with your conclusion. If you believe yourself to be a transgendered person, your goal should be to be the best damn transgendered person you can be. You owe the world politeness and honesty, but no more conformity than necessary to get along with it, and in the end you cannot control others' reactions so there's no point in obsessing over them. People will accept you or they won't, just like all the rest of us. We all have our cross-eyed bears and living life to please others leaves no life of one's own.

Forcing a square peg into a round hole is no fun for the peg and usually damages peg and hole alike. Just say no.

 

[boomerang]

Yea, I'm going to call bullshit on "I'd be adult about it and bear the burden." Also, no one has said anything about flamboyant drag this entire thread. That was a lot of words just to dodge the question.

What you don't seem to understand is gender dysphoria is real and people die over it. Just choosing to present yourself the way other people want isn't always an option if a person wants to keep on living with themselves. Why should transgender people ruin their lives spiraling into impossible depressions and possibly commit suicide over trying to make you comfortable?

Dodge the question? You just didn't like the answer and I'll bet there is no answer you would have liked. We're evidently all supposed to fawn over you because you're "different" and that makes you feel you deserve to have special rights - I guess. Best of luck with that and I'm totally serious when I say that. More power to you.

Your feeling that you need to make me feel comfortable is a burden you have imposed upon yourself. Its one you'll have to sort through entirely on your own. Nowhere in this thread have I condemned your lifestyle. Why would I? It has zero affect on me. But when it starts affecting my lifestyle either monetarily or through erosion of my rights the gloves will come off. Until then, you will have to bear the burden of your proclivities without projecting them on me. Of course you can if you wish, but I will just laugh them off. We all have problems. I'm not interested in taking ownership of yours.

 

[nehalem256]

Yea, I'm going to call bullshit on "I'd be adult about it and bear the burden." Also, no one has said anything about flamboyant drag this entire thread. That was a lot of words just to dodge the question.

What you don't seem to understand is gender dysphoria is real and people die over it. Just choosing to present yourself the way other people want isn't always an option if a person wants to keep on living with themselves. Why should transgender people ruin their lives spiraling into impossible depressions and possibly commit suicide over trying to make you comfortable?

That statement is contradicted by

If there is no manner of dress that is unacceptable for a given gender how could one be gender non-conforming?:sneaky:

We're working our way there. You can help

So on the one hand gender is a social construct.

And on the other hand people apparently are born with a gender that doesn't match their sex.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Happened to see this in my daily news site browsing, kind of related:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/02/opini...ck-transgender-navy-seal/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

 

[smackababy]

Happened to see this in my daily news site browsing, kind of related:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/02/opini...ck-transgender-navy-seal/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

Article argues we need less Conan, so I completely disagree. Conan is and will forever be one of the best mythological stories ever told. Robert Howard was a genius. I don't care what your message if, if you're against Conan the Cimmerian, you're against me!

 

[nehalem256]

Happened to see this in my daily news site browsing, kind of related:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/02/opini...ck-transgender-navy-seal/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

I'm so tired of labels, and it seems that EVERYTHING in life and society reinforces those labels

Am I the only one who sees the contradiction of a transgendered person complaining about labels?

If you didn't think labels were important than you wouldn't have taken a female name.

 

[SMOGZINN]

When I was a teenager I got a speeding ticket. I did not know any better, I went to pay the ticket in shorts and shoes. No pants, no shirt,,, nothing but 1984 style short shorts and a pair of reebok tennie shoes.

The judge called me up to the bench, threatened to have me thrown in jail for contempt of court if I ever appeared in his court like that again. I was then told to leave and come back only when I was fully dressed.

So your argument is that a judge once yelled at you and you conformed so everyone should be forced to conform?

As for the opening post, a drivers license is not a right. So yes again, I feel the state has the right to tell you how to dress for your drivers license picture. If you want a drivers license, these are the rules.

A State recognized ID is a right, and that is what we are really talking about.

 

[LightPattern]

All must bend to the will of the alphabet people.

"alphabet people"
Could mean either group (DMV, TSA vs LGBTQFIA+)... and your statement could apply to either as well.

 

[LightPattern]

If there is no manner of dress that is unacceptable for a given gender how could one be gender non-conforming?:sneaky:

Youth are great at finding ways to be nonconforming.
Once the mainstream culture stops caring about gender identity, they'll find another way to declare their identity as being different from the masses around them.

I understand the drive they feel... but I don't see widespread increased happiness by the further graying of lines.

 

[Whiskey16]

1. The DMV office should just follow policy. Individual offices shouldn't have the discretion to deviate from it.

Yes, is there a written policy for the perception of gender identity and may it be enforced? If such a policy exists, is that legal?

2. I think the policy needs a more rigorous and/or scientific basis than "Well, if that's what (s)he usually looks like". IMO, the latter is very casual and we have only the word of the person. Also, a line need be drawn somewhere. How far do we go with the 'usual look' thing? If you claim to typically wear a burqa should we allow an photo ID in one?

Strawman and a disingenuous argument.

Was the kid's face unsatisfactorily obscured or not? Zero evidence of such, therefore your second point has no basis for content.

The apparent issue is only of the challenged gender identity by the bureau of the gender choice by presented by the individual.

 

[werepossum]

Dodge the question? You just didn't like the answer and I'll bet there is no answer you would have liked. We're evidently all supposed to fawn over you because you're "different" and that makes you feel you deserve to have special rights - I guess. Best of luck with that and I'm totally serious when I say that. More power to you.

Your feeling that you need to make me feel comfortable is a burden you have imposed upon yourself. Its one you'll have to sort through entirely on your own. Nowhere in this thread have I condemned your lifestyle. Why would I? It has zero affect on me. But when it starts affecting my lifestyle either monetarily or through erosion of my rights the gloves will come off. Until then, you will have to bear the burden of your proclivities without projecting them on me. Of course you can if you wish, but I will just laugh them off. We all have problems. I'm not interested in taking ownership of yours.

Philosophically I agree with pretty much all that. But it's worth pointing out that in this particular case, enforcing the rules disadvantages both parties, the kid (who cannot get an ID that reflects the way he will be dressed) and the state (who wants ID to be recognizable as the person carrying it) without affecting you or I either way.

Personally I say let the kid have his ID picture in drag, but print "WARNING: PENIS INCLUDED" in big red letters. That way the bartender can warn a brother if the kid ever looks better than a guy in drag.

Am I the only one who sees the contradiction of a transgendered person complaining about labels?

If you didn't think labels were important than you wouldn't have taken a female name.

lol Good point.

"alphabet people"
Could mean either group (DMV, TSA vs LGBTQFIA+)... and your statement could apply to either as well.

Hmm, another good point. I gotta get me some initials and a label.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Dodge the question? You just didn't like the answer and I'll bet there is no answer you would have liked. We're evidently all supposed to fawn over you because you're "different" and that makes you feel you deserve to have special rights - I guess. Best of luck with that and I'm totally serious when I say that. More power to you.

Your feeling that you need to make me feel comfortable is a burden you have imposed upon yourself. Its one you'll have to sort through entirely on your own. Nowhere in this thread have I condemned your lifestyle. Why would I? It has zero affect on me. But when it starts affecting my lifestyle either monetarily or through erosion of my rights the gloves will come off. Until then, you will have to bear the burden of your proclivities without projecting them on me. Of course you can if you wish, but I will just laugh them off. We all have problems. I'm not interested in taking ownership of yours.

You know damned well after being physically harassed "bearing" the burden is not what you'd do, but go ahead and make a fool of yourself insisting it is. Condemning someone for trying to live like the rest of us IS condemning my lifestyle.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Dodge the question? You just didn't like the answer and I'll bet there is no answer you would have liked. We're evidently all supposed to fawn over you because you're "different" and that makes you feel you deserve to have special rights - I guess. Best of luck with that and I'm totally serious when I say that. More power to you.

Your feeling that you need to make me feel comfortable is a burden you have imposed upon yourself. Its one you'll have to sort through entirely on your own. Nowhere in this thread have I condemned your lifestyle. Why would I? It has zero affect on me. But when it starts affecting my lifestyle either monetarily or through erosion of my rights the gloves will come off. Until then, you will have to bear the burden of your proclivities without projecting them on me. Of course you can if you wish, but I will just laugh them off. We all have problems. I'm not interested in taking ownership of yours.

Lifestyle? Proclivity? Erosion of *your* rights? Good grief but you're an exceedingly ignorant person.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Absolutely no one dies OF gender dysphoria, only indirectly due to depression brought on by their continued inability to force the world to behave as they wish. Nonetheless, I do agree with your conclusion. If you believe yourself to be a transgendered person, your goal should be to be the best damn transgendered person you can be. You owe the world politeness and honesty, but no more conformity than necessary to get along with it, and in the end you cannot control others' reactions so there's no point in obsessing over them. People will accept you or they won't, just like all the rest of us. We all have our cross-eyed bears and living life to please others leaves no life of one's own.

Forcing a square peg into a round hole is no fun for the peg and usually damages peg and hole alike. Just say no.

They don't die of depression they die by their choice of suicide, or by taking a hypermmasculine role in denial and dying in a dangerous situation (percent wise 2x more trans women join the military than the general population. It's all kind of splitting hairs though when the most effective way to treat it is almost always to transition to some extent. If more people were treated properly in their youth (counseling early, potentially delaying puberty if warented/transitioning) the incedence of gender dysphoria would be much lower.

 

[werepossum]

They don't die of depression they die by their choice of suicide, or by taking a hypermmasculine role in denial and dying in a dangerous situation (percent wise 2x more trans women join the military than the general population. It's all kind of splitting hairs though when the most effective way to treat it is almost always to transition to some extent. If more people were treated properly in their youth (counseling early, potentially delaying puberty if warented/transitioning) the incedence of gender dysphoria would be much lower.

But kids are almost universally fucked up - it's an inherent part of starting with nothing and having to learn everything, especially in our over-sexed society. If you start "transitioning" too early you'll also get some kids who are just confused and make them even more confused, especially if as so often seems to be the case those controlling this "transitioning" are advocates of it. Counseling more and earlier I can agree with, although those in counseling often have ingrained preferences pro or con that may make the counseling counter productive.

And I have to ask - does "trans women" mean men who want to be women or women who want to be men? I'm guessing the former as our society accepts masculine women much more than feminine men, but I don't really know.

 

[Fern]

Yes, is there a written policy for the perception of gender identity and may it be enforced? If such a policy exists, is that legal?

This story popped up quite a while ago. The suit itself might be new, but I believe the DMV 'experience' was previously reported. IIRC, the DMV official claimed to be following policy by refusing the photo with make up etc.

And whether it's legal or not is not a decision for DMV managers. It's for courts.

Strawman and a disingenuous argument.

Nope. People here seem to think the DL is an ID for such casual things like buying alcoholic beverages etc. While true, the US has moved to make DL's a more 'formal' ID. I.e., an unofficial yet official US identity card for purposes such as immigration etc. For those not aware a few ago Congress passed a law (or laws} mandating criteria for states in issuing DL's. I.e., the US govt wants uniformity.

If we're going to have national standards this issue should, IMO, be addressed at the federal level.

Was the kid's face unsatisfactorily obscured or not? Zero evidence of such, therefore your second point has no basis for content.

IDK. It seems to be me fed govt is adopting technology (e.g., software for facial recognition purpose) for ID purposes. This is why I said experts/science should be involved in this decision. IDK enough about tech, or even what tech they are using, to judge.

The apparent issue is only of the challenged gender identity by the bureau of the gender choice by presented by the individual.

I'm not sure what you trying to say. I've never heard of any "bureau of the gender choice". But as we've seen constantly anytime one person feels they have a right for their 'special status' others will leverage off that for their own court cases. E.g., 'if he has a right to alter or conceal his identity for an ID why don't I?' It's the standard 'slippery slope' deal.

Fern

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

But kids are almost universally fucked up - it's an inherent part of starting with nothing and having to learn everything, especially in our over-sexed society. If you start "transitioning" too early you'll also get some kids who are just confused and make them even more confused, especially if as so often seems to be the case those controlling this "transitioning" are advocates of it. Counseling more and earlier I can agree with, although those in counseling often have ingrained preferences pro or con that may make the counseling counter productive.

And I have to ask - does "trans women" mean men who want to be women or women who want to be men? I'm guessing the former as our society accepts masculine women much more than feminine men, but I don't really know.

Transwoman = male to female and the opposite is true for transmen.

That's why treatment of adolescencts revolves around counseling and then delaying puberty if things look more certain. It's very rare people transition extremely young precisely because some people that young turn out to not be trans or not really need / want to transition.

Edit by transition I meant permanent changes. I'm not that well read on people treated early but I don't thin it's uncommon to have them live as their gender if it seems warranted.

 

[werepossum]

This story popped up quite a while ago. The suit itself might be new, but I believe the DMV 'experience' was previously reported. IIRC, the DMV official claimed to be following policy by refusing the photo with make up etc.

Nope. People here seem to think the DL is an ID for such casual things like buying alcoholic beverages etc. While true, the US has moved to make DL's a more 'formal' ID. I.e., an unofficial yet official US identity card for purposes such as immigration etc. For those not aware a few ago Congress passed a law (or laws} mandating criteria for states in issuing DL's. I.e., the US govt wants uniformity.

If we're going to have national standards this issue should, IMO, be addressed at the federal level.

IDK. It seems to be me fed govt is adopting technology (e.g., software for facial recognition purpose) for ID purposes. This is why I said experts/science should be involved in this decision. IDK enough about tech, or even what tech they are using, to judge.

I'm not sure what you trying to say. I've never heard of any "bureau of the gender choice". But as we've seen constantly anytime one person feels they have a right for their 'special status' others will leverage off that for their own court cases. E.g., 'if he has a right to alter or conceal his identity for an ID why don't I?' It's the standard 'slippery slope' deal.

Fern

Seems to me that if we invite in experts for this kid, we also extend a standing invitation for them to come in on us. For instance, should they be allowed to require me to shave my beard on the grounds that if I ever did shave my beard their facial recognition software wouldn't work? (I subscribe to the Abraham Lincoln theory that the more of my face is covered, the better I look.)

Transwoman = male to female and the opposite is true for transmen.

That's why treatment of adolescencts revolves around counseling and then delaying puberty if things look more certain. It's very rare people transition extremely young precisely because some people that young turn out to not be trans or not really need / want to transition.

Edit by transition I meant permanent changes. I'm not that well read on people treated early but I don't thin it's uncommon to have them live as their gender if it seems warranted.

Thanks for the info. I was assuming by transition you meant more or less permanent measures, from hormone therapy up to surgery.

 

[Whiskey16]

I'm not sure what you trying to say. I've never heard of any "bureau of the gender choice".

Excuse me, I was referring to the bureau responsible for issuing the licence have enforced their perspective upon the individual and employ an ultimatum to conform with that bureau's bias for gender appearances.

But as we've seen constantly anytime one person feels they have a right for their 'special status' others will leverage off that for their own court cases.

What special status? No relative supremacy found here, Fern. You are fabricating.

This Teenager Wasn’t Born a Girl — and What He Was Forced to Do by the DMV Has His Mom Filing a Lawsuit - 2 Sept 2014


“It was wrong to be taken aside and told how I look doesn’t fit with traditional gender roles and how I look is not even good enough to take a driver’s license picture taken,” Chase said. “And unfortunately, a lot of people like me have to go through this.”

“The government should not be in the business of telling men and women how we are supposed to look as men and women,” Michael Silverman, executive director of TLDEF, told the Daily News.
But South Carolina DMV spokesperson Beth Parks said Anderson staff were just following policy.

She told WYFF that in August 2009, DMV policy was updated to say,

“At no time will an applicant be photographed when it appears that he or she is purposely altering his or her appearance so that the photo would misrepresent his or her identity.”

This appears to be case of a department DENYING equality of appearance and of DENYING rights of access to permits of identity under the preconceived notion of this individual's gender.

The presentation of make-up and woman's clothing is a freedom of choice of the right to gender identity. No alteration of appearance except in the biased and bigoted view of the bureau in question.

E.g., 'if he has a right to alter or conceal his identity for an ID why don't I?' It's the standard 'slippery slope' deal.

You are continuing an argumentation based upon a strawman and non-presented scenario.

Fern, I repeat:

Was the kid's face unsatisfactorily obscured or not? Zero evidence of such, therefore your second point has no basis for content.

The apparent issue is only of the challenged gender identity by the bureau of the gender choice by presented by the individual.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

If someone spent the majority of their time in black face, as that was their regular appearance, I think a lot of people would be fine with his ID displaying just how much of an idiot that person actually was.

Note: You can't even say it without judging the person

Go figure.

 

[Vapid Cabal]

Is driving a privilege or a right?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Is driving a privilege or a right?

Is being able to get the official government documentation that is necessary to do so a privilege or a right?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Is being able to get the official government documentation that is necessary to do so a privilege or a right?

It would be a privilege good sir, but thanks for asking to confirm

 

[Victorian Gray]

It would be a privilege good sir, but thanks for asking to confirm

Yeah, was just looking up some info on this and I even get the logic behind it. Never had a license myself so not knowledgeable about the whole process.

Something new every day really is a thing.

 

[Texashiker]

Never had a license myself so not knowledgeable about the whole process.

Jesus H. Christ, a few days ago you claim to be 63 years old, never owned a home, and now you claim to have never had a drivers license?

I'm 63 and I promise, I'm not living with mom and dad.