General VR discussion thread

[Aikouka]

A tiny bit prior to Facebook's acquisition of Oculus, I was toying around with a VR streaming concept. It came to mind after I realized that I had missed a concert that I would have liked to attend, but given that I don't keep up with music much, I didn't even know it was going on. My solution is a bit different from what we have now as I mostly see people offerring offline "VR experiences", but what I've been postulating is the most effective way to implement streaming a VR experience.

The hardest part is the sheer amount of data. Effectively, you've got a 360 degree image, but to provide a true experience, you also want to ensure that the user is able to lift their head and see up or look down. My concept was to actually have the device be sort of "dumb" and simply provide the stitched images. The real magic would occur at the server level where a user would be logged into. The server's job would be to take a portion of the stitched image and provide it to the end user, but there'd also have to be a significant portion of overlap to avoid a user moving their head and having to wait for a buffer or something. The idea was to use adaptive rendering to provide the most quality (bitrate) at the central image, and reduce the quality as the image moves further out. Also, the biggest issue there is scale. As more users are watching, the server needs to be able to handle their image. A GPU-based rendering solution may be more effective, but what would probably be required is an aggregate serving solution. The idea is that the server tracks the user's positions and attempts to combine the jobs for users with similar views. Given that this would be used for things like concerts, plays, etc., most users would stay focused at the center as it is.

I really ought to work on this, but honestly, even though I work in software, a good portion of it is out of my realm of expertise.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Rumors are Vive will be around $1500. I expect this as well, maybe a bit closer to the $1200 range, and maybe due to pressure from Rift down to $1k. I would expect it to cost more since it really potentially does more.

 

[Aikouka]

Rumors are Vive will be around $1500. I expect this as well, maybe a bit closer to the $1200 range, and maybe due to pressure from Rift down to $1k. I would expect it to cost more since it really potentially does more.

Damn, I was considering picking up both, but . I can kinda justify $600 for a fun product, but $1500 is way too much. Since it comes with 2 controllers and 2 Lighthouse spatial devices, I could justify about $800 for it (considering each item to be $50).

 

[ImpulsE69]

Well that is just it..supposedly the pricing out of the items = $1500. Supposedly as well Rift is selling at a loss, while Vive can't really afford to do that. I haven't researched it, just read an article talking about it, but I don't know how reliable the info is.

 

[Kaido]

Ah, I wasn't aware SLI isn't yet supported, my apologies.

A few things to keep in mind is that advancements won't always come from raw power. For example the angle of your vision which is actually able to discern a lot of detail is about the size of your thumbnail at arms length, very tiny. The rest of your vision has increasingly less ability to discern detail. So it's plausible that we'll see specialized panels in future which have varying degrees of quality resolution across them with patches of higher resolution.

No worries! I'm learning a lot about this myself; the VR scene is changing rapidly. Lots of neat stuff coming out, like gaze tracking:

http://www.smivision.com/en/gaze-and-eye-tracking-systems/products/eye-tracking-hmd-upgrade.html

The FOVE headset has this stuff built-in:

http://www.getfove.com/

There was an article the other day on what you're talking about, about spot-focus rendering & peripheral blur. Can't remember what the term is to search for it, but it was talking about replicating your vision properly while also doing less rendering, because your eye actually only focuses on a small amount of space & kind of blurs out the rest. So combine that with gaze-tracking & you can probably render a LOT less visual data while giving a more realistic experience. Or maybe your brain would get confused because it wants to do that instead of having the computer do the task for it. Interested to see how that plays out for sure!

 

[Kaido]

After screwing around with the Google Cardboard-compatible Viewmaster & my iPhone 5S all week, I've decided to go with a Gear VR & a Note 5. Very interested to get started with some Unity projects & also try out a better VR experience (2x the resolution of what I have now, plus 60fps & other goodies).

 

[Kaido]

Wired has a good article from a couple months ago called "Stopped calling Google Cardboard's 360-degree videos "VR"':

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/360-video-isnt-virtual-reality/

Lots of cool camera rigs coming out. The Sphericam 2 from Kickstarter is now on pre-orders ($2,500) for a limited supply of units to ship out March-ish:

http://www.sphericam.com/product/vr-360-camera/

This unit is a 4K 6FPS 360 camera setup (although it's not 3D). Someone on Reddit posted some good rules for shooting video in 360:

https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/40qvoe/if_you_shoot_videos_in_360_and_want_us_to_watch/

Here's another guide on 11 ways to prevent motion sickness in VR:

http://riftinfo.com/oculus-rift-motion-sickness-11-techniques-to-prevent-it

One of my hobbies is filmmaking, and while I have no interest in shooting 3D films, 3D VR is appealing because it's a much more immersive experience. I don't think 3D films are bad, but the only one I've ever liked is Avatar because it was really, truly made for 3D & looked great. And they're also a headache to shoot, haha. I did see one of the Hobbit movies in HFR 3D, which looked super amazing, but I hated how it had the SmoothMotion "soap opera" effect, which really took me out of the movie. The whole time. It was annoying lol.

I'm keeping an eye on 3D VR rigs. Setup & audio especially will be a pain, but I think it'd have a really cool, really immersive effect. I'll have to test it out with my upcoming Gear VR tho, to see if it really pans out in actual use. They have some interesting "budget" camera rigs using stuff like multiple GoPros available already, although the workflow is a pain: (unloading multiple SD cards, stitching the footage, etc.)

http://shop.360heros.com/3DH3PRO14H-360-VIDEO-360-HEROS-3D-360-VIDEO-p/3dpro14h.htm

I'm curious to see what is going to pan out in the future as far as what we commonly accept for 3D VR video. I think 3D video will win out over standard 360 because it pops out well in VR, but shooting 3D 360 is not an easy task, so perhaps a fixed-sized curved screen in 3D that offers a small amount of head movement would work out the best (because I don't want to spin 180 degrees on my couch to see what's behind me for a full 2-hour movie, you know?). Not sure if VR videos will take off at all though, because wearing a headset is kind of isolating & movies are typically more of a couple/crowd experience. I can see really personal stuff like a horror movie where it scares the crap out of you working well for a solo watching experiencing.

 

[Kaido]

For people who want to keep up on VR news & discussion, someone created a multi-reddit here:

https://www.reddit.com/user/godelbrot/m/allvr

Contains the follow sub-reddits:

/r/allVR
/r/GearVR
/r/GoogleCardboard
/r/oculus
/r/OSVR
/r/playstationvr
/r/SteamVR
/r/virtualreality
/r/Vive

 

[Craig234]

For gaming, thinking between something like the Dell ultrawide 34" versus a VR device like the Rift.

 

[Kaido]

For gaming, thinking between something like the Dell ultrawide 34" versus a VR device like the Rift.

For general gaming, I'd just go with the 34". Sit down & play. I'm not sure if the Oculus has to have all games converted, or can run in kind of a 2D, monitor-only mode for unsupported games (i.e. no VR 3D conversion in the code).

 

[flexy]

Well that is just it..supposedly the pricing out of the items = $1500. Supposedly as well Rift is selling at a loss, while Vive can't really afford to do that. I haven't researched it, just read an article talking about it, but I don't know how reliable the info is.

I can't see that. I consider that a rumor spread to make people pre-order the Rift, if they THINK the Vive would be that expensive.

$1500 would be way over what I would pay. I learned that the "magic advantage" of the Vive over the Rift is the camera, which for me is entirely uninteresting since I am not planning to use VR "walking around in my apt", so why would I need a camera? Still, I will wait for Vive/Rift to read up on comparisons. Since the Rift is shipped in May anyway I can well wait to April or whatever.

 

[Kaido]

Oculus exec promises another Virtual Reality headset more affordable than the Oculus Rift:

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/1...dset-more-affordable-than-the-oculus-rift.htm

 

[Kaido]

Ah, Midwayman mentioned the keyword I was looking for in the Oculus pre-order thread - "foveated rendering":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKR8tM28NnQ

The Tobii EyeX Controller is available for $139: (for regular games, not VR, since it needs to see your eyes)

http://www.tobii.com/xperience/

However, they did show off some wearable glasses back in March:

http://uploadvr.com/hands-on-with-t...2015-vr-and-ar-integrations-are-in-the-works/

And then an EyeChip back in October:

http://uploadvr.com/new-tobii-eye-tracking-chip-aimed-vr/

StarVR partnered with Tobii for their 5K 210-FOV headset:

http://uploadvr.com/starvrs-5k-210-degree-fov-vr-hmd-adds-eye-tracking/

StarVR also went a different route & uses a pair of screens in their HMD :

http://www.gizmag.com/starvr-hands-on-review-e3-2015/38071/

I'd imagine the Rift CV2 will integrate this stuff as well. Lots of rapid development over the next couple of years for sure...

 

[Kaido]

Got my Gear VR in tonight. Using it with a Note 5. Initial thoughts:

1. Good design, lightweight, headstrap works.

2. Focus wheel is not super accurate, but then again, neither is the screen. It works for $99, wish it had more precision, but as you can still see pixels, you can only ask for so much. Very curious to see how the CV1 stacks up.

3. Touch controls seem moronic at first, but you get used to it really quickly. It's very well-designed...look at the menu item you want & simply touch the pad on the right side of the headset to select it. Touch & back are a little tricky, but that will only take a little time & muscle-memory.

4. I went with the Note 5 because I wanted a larger FOV. The S6 is supposed to be more pixel-dense due to the smaller size with the same resolution, but I figured I'd give the wider FOV a try. Glad I did, looks awesome!

5. Pixels are evident. Not so much pixels as much as the RGB dots like an old tube TV...if you ever looked at one up close, it was like vertical tubes of red, green, and blue. That's what it looks like. The overall effect reminds me of early home theater projectors with severe screen door effect. The SDE also causes the rainbow effect in certain scenes, like when I move my head around when looking up at the stars.

6. I can see how 90 FPS would be better. 60 in the Gear VR is a huge jump over what I presume is 30 on the Viewmaster (or something...just definitely not nearly as good, although still worth getting for $20!). The ghosting is really more like older projects with the rainbow & SDE thing going on.

7. Video quality is just okay. I am planning on renting one 2D movie and one 3D movie to try out from the Oculus Store. Again, if you can handle watching a movie on what looks like an old projector coupled with an old tube TV, then it's fine. Definitely not crystal-clear HD, but pretty decent for a cheap headset. I'd compare it to watching something on Youtube...you know you're not getting the best quality, but it's something to watch, you know?

8. The Oculus theater is amazeballs. The empty movie theater is very photorealistic (maybe an actual 360 photo?). Sitting on the moon watching a movie clip was hilarious.

9. The 360 photos are a huge step up from the Viewmaster. Just amazing. Anything where you're in a tunnel or hallway feels the most realistic.

Apparently my Note 5 can't handle holding a charge overnight (it was dead when I picked it up for the first time today, gotta look into that), so it's charging right now, but I'm looking forward to playing some games & watching some movies. I have a Bluetooth controller coming tomorrow for it. I can see why people would complain about lack of content because as cool as it is, it's a platform that thrives on new content because once you've had a VR experience in one thing, you want more, and eventually I'll burn through what is available currently. Definitely going to have some fun with this until the Oculus comes out, and definitely will be pre-ordering the Vive so I can do a hands-on comparison vs. the CV1. Awesome!

 

[BarkingGhostar]

I wish consumers would be educated, but like buying televisions of X resolution and sitting Y distance, they'll never see what they are paying for--except on their credit card bill. So, instead of eyeballs being too far from the sweet spot, VR is illustrating the opposite with having them too close and seeing the pixels.

Imagine paying +$500 on a new phone to see pixels. LOL If that happened with TVs there would be riots in the street.

 

[Kaido]

I wish consumers would be educated, but like buying televisions of X resolution and sitting Y distance, they'll never see what they are paying for--except on their credit card bill. So, instead of eyeballs being too far from the sweet spot, VR is illustrating the opposite with having them too close and seeing the pixels.

Imagine paying +$500 on a new phone to see pixels. LOL If that happened with TVs there would be riots in the street.

An important thing to keep in mind is that we are at the early-adopter stage of VR. It's not "wow, this is amazing quality" right now, it's "wow, it's amazing that we can do this!" 8K with 120FOV will come eventually, but there's a lot of things to work out in the meantime...things like more accurate positional tracking so you don't get nausea, and 90FPS, menu interfaces, where the actual usefulness of VR will be, etc. It's like the early days of flat-screen TV's...they looked absolutely terrible! But they were cool because they were flat, and then came big & flat. My friend's 36" Sony WEGA tube weighed over 250 pounds & was enormous, so that was a huge advantage over what existed at the time.

Regarding the pixels specifically, the Note 5 is far better than my iPhone 5S, but it's still not where I'd like it to be. It's fine for 360 movies, 360 videos, and games, but I tried watching Arrow on Netflix last night and had a hard time because it was difficult to focus on any of the details due to the RGB pixelization. It's different than normal computer pixelization like on Youtube because it's a clear picture, but it's hard to focus on the details. Best I can explain it is that it's like watching a DVD-resolution movie through a crystal screen door. You can see the potential, but it's not quite there yet. It was nice laying down in bed with a lightweight headset on, no cords dangling, and watching a movie on a big screen though. So right now I would compare it more to like the quality of a portable DVD player vs. a giant UHD LED TV. Makes me curious as to how the Oculus CV1 will look...

I did have one friend who was completely unphased by the marvel of the technology. Her immediate reaction was "this is dumb, why would I want to have to turn around all the time to look at a photo or video?" and she makes a valid point. Aside from being in a motion simulator for stuff, I wouldn't want to spin all around either all the time, outside of maybe an omni-treadmill, so I'm curious to see if, long-term, VR is gimmicky or is actually useful. My main reason for pre-ordering the Oculus is to use it with my VirZoom exercise bike; I'm hoping that it will make exercise more fun by providing an immersive, distracting experience. I'll find out in May!

 

[Craig234]

"My friend's 36" Sony WEGA tube weighed over 250 pounds & was enormous, so that was a huge advantage over what existed at the time."

I actually bought the biggest CRT TV made, the Sony 40" that weighed 300 pounds. But I had second thoughts and got a refund, whew.

 

[Kaido]

I actually bought the biggest CRT TV made, the Sony 40" that weighed 300 pounds. But I had second thoughts and got a refund, whew.

Holy crap! How did you even get that thing in your house I actually helped my friend move his TV a couple years ago & popped a vessel in my eye from the weight...I had a dead pixel in one of my eyes for weeks lol.

That IS one of the nice things about the Gear VR...big screen, lightweight cordless headset. I don't know if the Oculus will ever take off for 2-hour movies because you have to be corded into a PC, and the Gear VR v2.0 will probably outshine the CV1 when the Note6/7/etc. comes out with higher resolutions, so we'll see a lot of progress over the next couple of years. I'd imagine within 5 years, we will have lightweight, cordless, battery-powered 8K headsets with 120FOV & VR HMD's will be as common as Playstations & Xboxes. It's just going to take a little while to get there!

 

[Kaido]

For VR to be truly immersive, it needs convincing sound to match:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/22/vr-needs-3d-audio/

Great article on 3D audio. Also some info on Leap & VR:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/22/leap-motion-is-perfecting-natural-hand-gestures-for-vr/

 

[Craig234]

Holy crap! How did you even get that thing in your house

It was gonna be a hell of a delivery.

But I got a refund before it was delivered.

(It's crazy but I got as nice projector instead thinking of gaming on a big screen and never even used that before I got an LCD TV instead. It's still sitting there.)

 

[Kaido]

(It's crazy but I got as nice projector instead thinking of gaming on a big screen and never even used that before I got an LCD TV instead. It's still sitting there.)

I'm a big fan of projectors. Once you go big, it's hard to go back. I'm also picky about picture quality. Right now I have a 60" Mitsubishi DLP in the living room, which is a rear-projection system, and it looks way better than all of the LED panels out right now. I'm in the process of putting a 75" screen for one of my projectors in my bedroom right now, which is pretty small for a projector, but after checking out my buddy's 70" Vizio, I didn't like the picture quality at all & opted for a projector instead (conveniently half the price of the TV!), especially since I could control the ambient light in the room. Next best thing to springing for an OLED

 

[Kaido]

Elite: Dangerous announced that they are now focusing on the HTC Vive & SteamVR over the Oculus Rift:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/elite-dangerous-htc-vive-focus/

 

[Kaido]

I just started playing Adventure Time on the Gear VR with my iPega controller and it is AWESOME! Super-fun 3D platformer: ($5)

http://www.turbo-button.com/games/adventuretime

imo it's the perfect introduction to VR gaming. If you love simple games like Mario, you will really get a kick out of this.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Elite: Dangerous announced that they are now focusing on the HTC Vive & SteamVR over the Oculus Rift:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/elite-dangerous-htc-vive-focus/

That's not what they said, they said they are adding HTC Vive and SteamVR to the list to work on, as Oculus Rift work is more or less done until the 'final' versions come out and needs tweaks. They aren't stopping support for Rift (and have said as much after those articles claiming they were came out).

 

[KentState]

Silly question, but is it worth investing in a dedicated home theater room or could potentially the family watch a movie with headsets? I know we would still want the audio benefits of a HT room, but even these new 3D headphones look promising.