Generational Tensions Within the New York Times

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
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Probably, that's what old people do

Heh, touche.

The divide of generations is rather new and kind of unique to our society and that's really too bad. I learned a lot from my grandfather and if I knew what to ask when he was alive I'm sure I would have benefited. I'm afraid I can't find it to hate my grandparents, those who survived WWI, just barely in the case of my grandfather. He was kind and wise. He made his share of mistakes, saw a lot of things he would have changed if he knew what was going to happen. The older generation had some foolishness but there was a lifetime of living I could not know. These things appear valueless and an inner hatred of others much like racism exists. We all know how "those people" are.

Fortunately, I brought my kids to appreciate a larger perspective. I hope they have a similar relationship with their children.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,330
1,203
126
In 20 years Trump supporters will be looked upon in the same way that Communists were in the 50s.


I wouldn't be surprised if the government decides to completely disenfranchise every person who voted for Trump for the safety of the future of the country.

You sound confident in your ability to be among the ones writing history then.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,532
27,835
136
Trump supporters or anyone not explicitly hating Trump seem to get labeled a white supremacist.
We've run out of rational excuses that people could possibly present for supporting Trump so racism is just one of the plausible explanations left.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,285
8,205
136
Can anyone define what this 'wisdom' is that old people apparently have just by virtue of still being alive?
That's funny. In an instant you will be the old man and then someone will be telling you that you are like all that came before.

Don't have kids.

No, no, just don't have that many of them. Generations only get stroppy when they have numbers on their side.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Can anyone define what this 'wisdom' is that old people apparently have just by virtue of still being alive?


No, no, just don't have that many of them. Generations only get stroppy when they have numbers on their side.

-the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.

-the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge, and good judgment.

-the body of knowledge and principles that develops within a specified society or period.

The running theme there is experience. Its one thing to learn from a book, but to actually execute on that knowledge is very different. I can describe the color blue to you, but if you have never seen it, can you really understand it until you see it?

As I said before, its not that wisdom means you get it right 100% of the time. We need people to try new ways of doing things that may not be obvious given wisdom. We also need people that are experienced to stop us from doing dumb things that don't work. The balance makes us all better off.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Can anyone define what this 'wisdom' is that old people apparently have just by virtue of still being alive?


No, no, just don't have that many of them. Generations only get stroppy when they have numbers on their side.
I liked the version of America where we celebrated our elders and treated them with respect. Then again, the elders for my generation was the Greatest Generation.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,532
27,835
136
Maybe if our elders hadn't become greedy bastards who vote themselves benefits and FYGM when it comes to everyone else they would get more respect.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,710
6,198
126
Can anyone define what this 'wisdom' is that old people apparently have just by virtue of still being alive?

Certainly they are among those lucky enough not to have died via accident through no fault of their own, no credit there, but also among those who had enough smarts not to have killed themselves off via some personal rash behavior. So that suggests to me the answer to your question must take into account what is rash behavior, and that to me leads to the subject of temptation. What drives one person to behaviors that may be personally dangerous, may I define that as foolish behavior, and some people to exhibit behavior commonly called prudent, and this of course leads us to the subject of motivation. And what is motivation but some form of emotional driver or need.

We know that people who experience intense physical or psychological danger which can take the form of deprivation or environmental threat, will need to meet such challenges to survive. The methodologies to do this can be culturally derived or personally derived via trial and error, creatively and intuitively. We could call this need-driven learning and practice. Age doesn't guarantee anybody will do this but for those so engaged via need, knowledge and wisdom will grow with time.

The dangers of adaption to deprivations and threats, as with the process of evolution, is over-specialization and fossilization. The adaptations acquired as a child may not match the adult environment, that is to say the feelings of need may no longer be appropriate, no longer real, and in fact may prove to be counterproductive. When threat responses become autonomic, can we say easily triggered, by threats long past both in time and in actuality, but as if still present, the result is rash behavior. The question then becomes, does an individual recognize the need to deal with that behavior, does a person recognize his own behavior may be his greatest threat. Here a person will need some factual data on the relationship between ego need and humility. And since the ego, once established as a method of dealing with deprivation, rowing your own boat for lack of emotional support from others, will never itself be humble, a sense of humility will have to be acquired externally some how. One can find in all cultures of the world in religion and philosophy, etc, the dangers of the ego and the virtue of humility. One can also, in extreme cased, simply bottom out, reach the state of rejection of the self via following the self to the point of self destruction and saying enough of me, I surrender.

I would say then that wisdom is the product of need that leads to self understanding, that to know yourself is to know not only others but everything that matters. Wisdom is just another of the many names of God, or if you prefer, oceanic love.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Maybe if our elders hadn't become greedy bastards who vote themselves benefits and FYGM when it comes to everyone else they would get more respect.

You mean like how young people got pretty excited about getting loans to go to school. Tell me, was it money that came from the young or old?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Can anyone define what this 'wisdom' is that old people apparently have just by virtue of still being alive?

Yeah, that's not hard. First thing is that a lot of fools are old as well as young, but if you aren't one and have lived through and considered events you have the advantage of knowing just how you and others fucked up and what not to do again. Want to know what the horror of war is? It's not on CNN, it's in the eyes of someone worthy of respect that's seen just what it is. What hate, real hate, looks like. Poverty that is third world real, not the lack of broadband.

They have an informed perspective that only time brings. You can take advantage of that or not.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,337
15,133
136
Yeah, that's not hard. First thing is that a lot of fools are old as well as young, but if you aren't one and have lived through and considered events you have the advantage of knowing just how you and others fucked up and what not to do again. Want to know what the horror of war is? It's not on CNN, it's in the eyes of someone worthy of respect that's seen just what it is. What hate, real hate, looks like. Poverty that is third world real, not the lack of broadband.

They have an informed perspective that only time brings. You can take advantage of that or not.

Is that wisdom or complacency? If you go through life thinking, well things aren't as bad as when we were drafted and fought wars that would make you question humanity and when poverty now a days looks like a stay at a holiday inn as opposed to a cardboard box, you've got perspective sure, not much else. If younger generations are fighting for no drones and broadband for all and your response is; that's not war or real poverty, then what wisdom are you imparting? None. You are simply a relic of the past and more than likely an obstacle to human progress that is happening now.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,710
6,198
126
Is that wisdom or complacency? If you go through life thinking, well things aren't as bad as when we were drafted and fought wars that would make you question humanity and when poverty now a days looks like a stay at a holiday inn as opposed to a cardboard box, you've got perspective sure, not much else. If younger generations are fighting for no drones and broadband for all and your response is; that's not war or real poverty, then what wisdom are you imparting? None. You are simply a relic of the past and more than likely an obstacle to human progress that is happening now.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that human progress is to be preferred to obstructing it? If so I've got some news for your dumb ass, even though as young, self important, and childishly naive as you are, you won't get it.

So is progress really better than stagnation?
 
Last edited:

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,285
8,205
136
I can certainly see that in theory 'life experience' ought to be valuable, but I just don't see a great deal of evidence for this wisdom in practice when I look around. Perhaps when conditions are changing rapidly that experience is of much less value than in other eras? And perhaps sometimes differences in the circumstances between different age groups, and within them, makes the 'experience vs freshness' dichotomy relatively less significant?

Here, the old voted hugely disproportionately for Brexit, for example. I'm not at all convinced that was particularly 'wise', rather than being mainly an act of bloody-minded and resentful grumpiness, from people with a set of interests (determined in good part by their being far more likely to own property and have a good pension) that differ from younger people concerned more about employment prospects. Of course that one also depended on class and geography.

Also, many people I've known of my parents' generation (including my parents) grew up in such dramatically different contexts that their experience turned out not to have much relevance to me and my generation. In recent centuries circumstances have tended to change very rapidly.

Not sure, really. It's probably not a question that makes much sense in the abstract.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,337
15,133
136
Are you seriously trying to tell us that human progress is to be preferred to obstructing it? If so I've got some news for your dumb ass, even though as young, self important, and childishly naive as you are, you won't get it.

So is progress really better than stagnation?

Uh yeah!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,710
6,198
126
Great. I agree 100%. But what you, in the typical unselfexamined way of people of all ages is that while you have the correct objective, you have no idea what distinguished or delineates real progress from what is truly retrograde. You, like all bigots, make the blind assumption that you already have those facts down pat. And your blindness to that fact, with the accompanying certainty such ignorance naturally confers, is why you are the real danger to real progress. You have never acquired the maturity of the kind of self examination that would lead you to realize this. This is what makes you fanatically arrogant and dismissive of others viewpoints. This is why you are fool enough to confuse a wise man with an old may screaming at a cloud. All I did was point out that you are a fool as big as any conservative who can't face negative facts about himself. You are a liberal know it all.

And don't forget, as you chortle over the stupidity of conservatives you only magnify and strengthen the kind of contempt that will cause pain if you happened to begin somehow to see those very same characteristics in yourself.

That's why humility and respect for others is a positive thing. It's as much for your sake as for them.

Always a pleasure to try to help you get this. M
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Is that wisdom or complacency? If you go through life thinking, well things aren't as bad as when we were drafted and fought wars that would make you question humanity and when poverty now a days looks like a stay at a holiday inn as opposed to a cardboard box, you've got perspective sure, not much else. If younger generations are fighting for no drones and broadband for all and your response is; that's not war or real poverty, then what wisdom are you imparting? None. You are simply a relic of the past and more than likely an obstacle to human progress that is happening now.

My goodness your hubris extraordinary. You think wisdom is about events, things. Dying is a universal timeless thing. Suffering is. The Human Condition and how we relate, our empathy or lack of it is also something every generation deal with. How people respond, their thoughts, their lives and experience have value.

Let me impart something my father taught me so you may promptly discard it as the nonsense of the old generation. Paraphrasing "Never feel obliged to participate in the foolishness of others. You'll make enough of your own mistakes without adding those of others." You foolishly think that all can be offered is "that's not like it was in the old days sunny, I had to walk uphill both ways". No, it is recorded history, literature, the good and evil of mankind as lived by another not old men yelling at clouds.

I'll waste the wisdom passed on to me by a man who was born at the end of the 19th century, surely a bumpkin compared to the enlighted now. That man, my grandfather and my grandmother whom we visited every summer lived in the poor south. They grew their own vegetables and chickens, had their own cows at one point I was just a pup, before the worst of the race riots and civil rights was a thing in process. This white man, and worse, a Christian (worse some I know) was a better man than most I have known in my life. He wasn't rich. He didn't have a doctorate. He lost most of his lungs to a gas attack in WWI, but did odd jobs to supplement my grandmother's school pension.

In this Arkansas town the poverty of blacks was extraordinary. Look up the depression and the worse of housing conditions and that's how things were. My parents didn't care if I went the quarter mile down the street and play with the kids black or not. They were OK people and I was too young to understand otherwise.

One day my grandmother picked a big bag of beans, blackeyed peas, okra and squash and gave it to my grandfather. He asked me to- and you may feel superior if you wish- he asked me to take that bag to the nigers down the road and give it to the mother. I thought nothing of it, I was a little kid. I wasn't "smart" enough to be righteous and look down upon him for using "that" word. I did it and I played until it was time for me to go home for dinner. I did this every couple of days for a few summers. Well after leaving that "awful racist" grandfather as the ignorant might believe I was back in Philly. My next door neighbor was a good Democrat. JFK pictures all over the place with flags and all. Perfect liberal patriot of the day. I had just come back and heard how terrible it must be to have to spend the summer with all those racists. Well a few things happened over next few years. First I asked my grandfather why he did what he did with the food. I had already realizes that he wasn't insulting or racist with his "niger" it was the only term he knew. It was just a descriptor for him like black or whatever now. His answer as to why he had me take the food instead of him doing it was this. He knew the man had no work. There was no safety net. The wife washed clothes for money. He had me do it because in his own words "He's a man and he has his pride. He can't do better than he's doing and it won't hurt him if a child brings food to his wife". He had respect and consideration. The good upright northerner? She had a fit when the first black family moved on the street. I learned a number of things from that generation, for good and ill. How to treat people and think about the larger world and so much more.

Those stories that Tolkien told of the swamps and bodies of men and elves? That wasn't imagination so much as history, that of his and others, dead bodies lying in the mud floating and rotting, horrors which were real, made into a fiction, but so much living and dying went into that and you can learn nothing because of drones or whatever. All that came before you. All you learned in school, all is the collected knowledge, wisdom and foolishness of those who came before you.

Some of those people who lived and participated in a vast and real world are alive and accessible and you assign them to the iceberg. What a fools waste of a time-limited resource, a way to learn about the nature of humanity seen through the eyes of others. A living library of Alexandria and you burn it. That's what every generation offers, but people not worthy to pick up the mantle must attack them. Lesser sons of greater sires, some of those.

Hopefully, some will learn while others scorn. It's too bad that the latter will inflict their ignorance on their future generation.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,337
15,133
136
Great. I agree 100%. But what you, in the typical unselfexamined way of people of all ages is that while you have the correct objective, you have no idea what distinguished or delineates real progress from what is truly retrograde. You, like all bigots, make the blind assumption that you already have those facts down pat. And your blindness to that fact, with the accompanying certainty such ignorance naturally confers, is why you are the real danger to real progress. You have never acquired the maturity of the kind of self examination that would lead you to realize this. This is what makes you fanatically arrogant and dismissive of others viewpoints. This is why you are fool enough to confuse a wise man with an old may screaming at a cloud. All I did was point out that you are a fool as big as any conservative who can't face negative facts about himself. You are a liberal know it all.

And don't forget, as you chortle over the stupidity of conservatives you only magnify and strengthen the kind of contempt that will cause pain if you happened to begin somehow to see those very same characteristics in yourself.

That's why humility and respect for others is a positive thing. It's as much for your sake as for them.

Always a pleasure to try to help you get this. M

I love it when you think you know me. I can't blame you though, you only know what you see from posts on this forum.

I still like you though, even if you occasionally yell at clouds...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,710
6,198
126
I love it when you think you know me. I can't blame you though, you only know what you see from posts on this forum.

I still like you though, even if you occasionally yell at clouds...
Did you read in my post were I said you never acquired the maturity of the kind of self reflection that would allow you to understand? That IS me telling you that the reason you don’t know that I know you better than you know yourself is because you don’t know what I know, that I know you better than you know yourself because I know me and that knowing me allows me to know you because an aspect of self knowledge that goes hand and hand with it is the awareness that we, and not just you and I, but all of us are all the same. This isn’t me yelling at clouds, it me trying to clear up things that cloud your vision.

I distinct remember years and years ago when I first realized the meaning of experience listening to a group of younger adults than I was discussing a matter it was clear to me they had no real understanding of. I knew right there what my father meant when he told me many times you can’t put an old head on young shoulders. You would not want people like them running the newspaper industry. They would be completely unaware they don’t know much. Sorry if I seem to run you through the grindstones, but it’s how you make fine flour. The tea of wisdom can’t be poured into a full cup.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
Hayabusa, thank you for that beautiful post. You have written some very insightful things here over time.

Moonbeam, you are correct in your assertion that self hate is almost a universal phenomenon. Question is, even if you do recognize it consciously, how do you deal with it, or manage it?
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Sounds like the younger staff members would be happier writing for Weekend Update on SNL.

Newspapers are not meant to be woke. They are not meant to mirror confirmation bias.

Great journalists understand this, and the important role of a free press, which is why the NY Times is a reputable source of news.

It sounds like these younger staffers want to turn the NY Times into a safe space.


Yep, and if it caved the Grey Lady loses the most valuable asset it has which is a reputation a leading paper of record. Once it goes that’s extrodinarily hard to win back.

I don’t understand what journalism schools are teaching the youth, it seems like the standards are being ignored so that everyone can feel "woke", but the goal should be an impartial reporting of the news and leave the opinions to the op-ed. A good reported does that, reports.

It’s refreshing to read the last part though that the editor isn’t caving.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
I've been an ardent reader of NY Times longer than the age of many people these days. What you said above - it is neither fully true nor completely false. It depends on how news is defined. Suffice to say, I have come to realize, that if NY Times is your main source of news, you would never get a feel of what is actually going on in our societies. Instead of that, in subtle and intelligent ways, they would mold your thinking / views to what they consider acceptable and proper. It is not a source which will make you ask questions - what is what great writing is all about.


That’s what the New Yorker is for, not the Times.
 
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