Generator home back feeding

[monkeydelmagico]

It is really sad to see how many people are willing to risk someones life to save a few bucks.
My only hope is that it would be one of your own and not the lineman working his ass off to get the power on for everyone else.

I can honestly say I was ignorant and took the advice of someone not qualified to give it. I can guarantee you I will NOT be back feeding until a certified electrician comes and installs the appropriate device(s).

That being said, there doesn't appear to be a wealth of information related to lineman injuries/deaths related to this subject. In fact, all I can find is one anecdotal instance that keeps getting passed around the internet like a bad Sasquatch story. I don't believe it's as big a deal as some folks are making it out to be.

 

[JEDI]

I can honestly say I was ignorant and took the advice of someone not qualified to give it. I can guarantee you I will NOT be back feeding until a certified electrician comes and installs the appropriate device(s).

That being said, there doesn't appear to be a wealth of information related to lineman injuries/deaths related to this subject. In fact, all I can find is one anecdotal instance that keeps getting passed around the internet like a bad Sasquatch story. I don't believe it's as big a deal as some folks are making it out to be.

thought turn off your main breaker = no bad feeding?
when neighbors power/street lights come back on, turn off generator, then turn on main breaker

 

[SNC]

thought turn off your main breaker = no bad feeding?
when neighbors power/street lights come back on, turn off generator, then turn on main breaker

I wonder how forgiving you would be if you called the power company to disconnect the power at your place so you could change the panel only to find out they forgot actually disconnect it before calling you to let you know it was off. Its an honest mistake, not one you would ever make, but hey it's only a some other guys life, right....

 

[monkeydelmagico]

And the mistake is not checking for voltage before doing work. I'm sure linemen are getting blown off poles weekly because they forget to do this....

thought turn off your main breaker = no bad feeding?
when neighbors power/street lights come back on, turn off generator, then turn on main breaker

Turns out this is not really a safe practice. I can see where the potential for human error could cause a safety issue. Better to have the correct device(s) installed by a pro.

 

[SNC]

And the mistake is not checking for voltage before doing work. I'm sure linemen are getting blown off poles weekly because they forget to do this....

That is not so much the issue as it is the guy who just go home after the lineman have started to work and fires up his jenny in a hurry before throwing the main.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

That is not so much the issue as it is the guy who just go home after the lineman have started to work and fires up his jenny in a hurry before throwing the main.

Point taken and my apologies for the sarcasm.

 

[Red Squirrel]

As a side note when working on HV lines I believe it is customary for them to short them out first. If by chance there is stray power that somehow finds it's way to the lines - whether because of a home owner or a fault somewhere else, it will just short and cause an upstream fault.

Not saying you should not be careful though. Proper way is to install the proper switch gear but if you are in a pinch and don't have such a setup it's still good to know how to do it "properly" with what you have.

 

[NL5]

Linemen do take safety measures to ensure that if someone back feeds the lines, they are protected. However, that doesn't mean homeowners should neglect required safety devices either. By backfeeding, you risk sending very high voltage power down a line that is presumed to be dead. You also risk fines, and potential responsibility for someone's death.

Bottom line, it's illegal for a very good reason.

 

[natto fire]

Linemen do take safety measures to ensure that if someone back feeds the lines, they are protected. However, that doesn't mean homeowners should neglect required safety devices either. By backfeeding, you risk sending very high voltage power down a line that is presumed to be dead. You also risk fines, and potential responsibility for someone's death.

Bottom line, it's illegal for a very good reason.

Some of the replies on this thread speak volumes as to why society seems so ego centric these days.

I mean, an automobile has seatbelts and air bags, why should I focus on the road ahead? The person behind me should be ready to stand on their brakes and pray for the person behind them!

I know that is apples to oranges, and i am skewed because I know some linemen and do inside wiring myself, but it is kind of sad to think someone would rather save some money instead of doing things safely.

Not that it surprises me, just too bad that Wal-Mart consumer mentality has infiltrated the skilled trades.

 

[NutBucket]

Figured I would come back to this thread and admit to backfeeding my panel today...after turning off the main breakers and verifying my DMM that nothing was being sent back to the pole.

Bring it

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Raizinman]

As long as you are VERY CAREFUL with what you are doing, I see no harm. I've been doing it for 15 or more years with no ill effects. I even have a clipboard with all the necessary steps so that I don't forget any. I don't recommend that everyone do this and I don't recommend that everyone repair their own car or install their own hot water tank either. If you understand the electrical issues, take precautions, and work with care, I don't see a problem. Again, it is not for everyone, but it does work just fine.

 

[NutBucket]

I used a second killer cord to connect two circuits and power the other pole of the panel too. Yes, I made sure all the two pole circuits were turned off.

And Thursday the tankless sprung a leak so we swapped it out. Only 8 years? WTF.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[SNC]

Figured I would come back to this thread and admit to backfeeding my panel today...after turning off the main breakers and verifying my DMM that nothing was being sent back to the pole.

Bring it

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

My only hope is that if someone gets hurt or killed it's you or someone you love, and not the lineman busting his ass to provide for his family.

 

[natto fire]

My only hope is that if someone gets hurt or killed it's you or someone you love, and not the lineman busting his ass to provide for his family.

Not defending the practice of hack backfeeding, but the lineman should be using grounding jumpers while working on transmission lines. The ones that I have talked to always do.

 

[Red Squirrel]

It's not really rocket science to do it properly either. Well, "properly". Not something you should do, but it's still something you want to do as properly as it can be done, if you're stuck and have to do it. Ideally you should have an interlock/transfer switch etc.

Also I think what would probably actually happen if you did backfeed, your generator would be trying to power all the houses that are part of the outage, and it would not be big enough, so it's breaker would trip, or it would blow. The instantaneous power jolt before the breaker trips would probably be enough to harm someone working on a line though.

 

[NutBucket]

I was thinking that too. Actually I don't think the generator would blow. Either it's breaker would trip or the breaker of the circuit you're backfeeding would trip.

 

[Raizinman]

Also I think what would probably actually happen if you did backfeed, your generator would be trying to power all the houses that are part of the outage, and it would not be big enough, so it's breaker would trip, or it would blow. The instantaneous power jolt before the breaker trips would probably be enough to harm someone working on a line though.

You've obviously never backfed. You use the individual breakers to control what areas in the house you want to control. Using a simple inductive amp gauge can easily tell you the draw on your generator so that you don't overload it. I invested in a 3500 watt generator with a 4,000 peak. For the very few power outages we have, this was sufficient. I switch between kitchen, basement (furnace), and other areas of the house as needed so that I don't overload the generator.

The bigger problem is the sine wave. Most generators (except the expensive ones) do not output a true 60 hertz for which electronic heat pumps and some furnances also require, along with refrigerators, freezers, etc. Once you blow a circuit board add a few hundred dollars for repairs. There are power conditioners that you can use to clean up the power, but you would be better just getting a better generator.

 

[Red Squirrel]

You've obviously never backfed. You use the individual breakers to control what areas in the house you want to control. Using a simple inductive amp gauge can easily tell you the draw on your generator so that you don't overload it. I invested in a 3500 watt generator with a 4,000 peak. For the very few power outages we have, this was sufficient. I switch between kitchen, basement (furnace), and other areas of the house as needed so that I don't overload the generator.

The bigger problem is the sine wave. Most generators (except the expensive ones) do not output a true 60 hertz for which electronic heat pumps and some furnances also require, along with refrigerators, freezers, etc. Once you blow a circuit board add a few hundred dollars for repairs. There are power conditioners that you can use to clean up the power, but you would be better just getting a better generator.

That's if it's being done properly. I meant if it was being done improperly - ex: you forget to turn off the main. If you were to backfeed but not turn off the main you'd be backfeeding back to the transformer, it would step up to 7,200v and then go to all the other transformers and step down. Perhaps go further, depends where the break is. Whoever is working on the HV line could potentially be harmed, but what I was saying is that chances are your generator would trip because all that would be too big of a load.

If you do it properly where you're only feeding your house, then yeah you will be fine. Just need to be aware of the load. Idealy you turn off all the breakers and only turn on the ones you need and you turn the main off.

And no I've never backfed, I have 4 hours of battery backup and it's been good so far, but I do want to look into a transfer switch and outside outlet at some point. That, or solar, a 5kw system with decent size battery bank would probably be enough to keep the essentials running.

 

[NL5]

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-Outdoor-Generator-Inter-Lock-Kit-HOMRBGK2C/203030954

 

[PowerEngineer]

Not defending the practice of hack backfeeding, but the lineman should be using grounding jumpers while working on transmission lines. The ones that I have talked to always do.

Yes, this is mostly true.

On actual transmission lines (>57 kV), linemen will put grounding jumpers on both (or all) sides of their work site as their safety is dependent on the grounds being located between them and the energizing source. So if they are working an insulator string midway along a transmission line, they should put grounds on both sides so that inadvertent energization from either end of the line will be intercepted by a ground before it gets to them.

What we are talking about here, however, are distribution lines (often 13 kV) which are essentially radial feeds from distribution substations. Because energization should only be coming from the substation side of the distribution line, only one ground on that side may be deployed. If so, then an unexpected energization from the opposite direction (e.g. from a downstream customer residence) could catch them by surprise. An argument can be made here that lineman should always deploy multiple grounds even on distribution lines (especially given the increasing numbers of emergency generators and small solar/wind generators), but even so it's surprising common for lineman to take short cuts to speed up repairs (especially during storms) at the expense of their own safety.

As suggested earlier, your backup generator will almost certainly trip if your are backfeeding to your neighbors loads. The dangerous situation is when you are backfeeding to just an open-ended span of a distribution line. Your generator can bring that up to full line voltage through the distribution transformer without overloading.

Yes, if you do everything exactly right every time then you will not backfeed the distribution line and not endanger anyone. It is equally true that you may not hurt anyone if you very carefully drive a car with bad brakes and/or burned out lights. But in both cases, you are deciding to put other peoples' safety at a greater risk (when you eventually screw up) that what society at large thinks is justified. Yes, we all think we are smarter than the idiots that made those mistakes that injured those people -- but are we really?

My two cents...

 

[Raizinman]

The reason you don't see line men being killed or even hurt due to generator back feeding is because it CANNOT happen.

For example:
I have a 3500 watt generator which is about 30 amps. I'll back feed and power my:
Refrigerator = 500 watts
Freezer = 500 watts
Furnace/heat pump = 1000 watts
Lights, computer/monitor, TV, misc. = 1000 watts

Lets say for example that I turned ON my main breaker during back feeding. What would happen? Within about a few milliseconds, the circuit breaker on my generator would pop and all generator produced electricity would stop. Let's go one step further and say the circuit breaker on my generator malfunctioned and did not pop. My little 3500 watt generator, (which already is powering 3000 of its watts for my home would then try to power the rest of the neighborhood. Within a few milliseconds, it would overload and stop. The load going backwards outside my home would be so large (all my neighbors homes trying to draw electricity) would pop my circuit break very quickly. So even if I forgot to turn off my main breaker, the only problem that would happen is my generator breaker would pop.

My search on the Internet found ZERO stories about any line men who were killed or even hurt due to generator back feeding. Although I did find lots of mis-information.

In order for a lineman to be hurt, you are making the assumption that all the houses around me have turned off their main circuit breaker and there are no other loads to draw from my generator.

 

[SNC]

The reason you don't see line men being killed or even hurt due to generator back feeding is because it CANNOT happen.

For example:
I have a 3500 watt generator which is about 30 amps. I'll back feed and power my:
Refrigerator = 500 watts
Freezer = 500 watts
Furnace/heat pump = 1000 watts
Lights, computer/monitor, TV, misc. = 1000 watts

Lets say for example that I turned ON my main breaker during back feeding. What would happen? Within about a few milliseconds, the circuit breaker on my generator would pop and all generator produced electricity would stop. Let's go one step further and say the circuit breaker on my generator malfunctioned and did not pop. My little 3500 watt generator, (which already is powering 3000 of its watts for my home would then try to power the rest of the neighborhood. Within a few milliseconds, it would overload and stop. The load going backwards outside my home would be so large (all my neighbors homes trying to draw electricity) would pop my circuit break very quickly. So even if I forgot to turn off my main breaker, the only problem that would happen is my generator breaker would pop.

My search on the Internet found ZERO stories about any line men who were killed or even hurt due to generator back feeding. Although I did find lots of mis-information.

In order for a lineman to be hurt, you are making the assumption that all the houses around me have turned off their main circuit breaker and there are no other loads to draw from my generator.

Like in your reply?

 

[Raizinman]

Like in your reply?

It's only mis-information if you prove it wrong.

 

[SNC]

It's only mis-information if you prove it wrong.

If your Fridge and freezer are each pulling 500w 24 hours a day you really need to replace them. most modern ones are in the 100 watt range when actively cooling. Its really amazing how much you don't know you don't know. But with a mindset like

It's only mis-information if you prove it wrong.

what difference does it make.

 

[Raizinman]

I didn't say 500w 24 hours a day. The start capacitor circuit on refrigerators, freezers, central air units, etc. draw a much higher wattage than running wattage. Your generator must have a surge ability to be able to start these devices. Didn't you know that?