Geneva Conventions just do not apply to the US.. right? More abuse of Iraqi prisoners.. YIPPEE

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
1. That's an arbitrary label which really means nothing. We may not like the way they fight (I'm SURE they don't like our approach either), but they're soldiers and should be treated with the same respect we want OUR soldiers treated with.

What flag do they fight under?
What country are they fighting for?
 

imported_Ant

Member
Sep 2, 2005
82
0
0
There was a story fairly recently of a taxi driver taken prisoner by coalition forces in Afghanistan. He received several beatings and died as a result of his injuries.
There was no suggestion he was linked to the insurgency or Al Qaeda.
Those held responsible for the murder were sentenced to a few months in jail.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
1. That's an arbitrary label which really means nothing. We may not like the way they fight (I'm SURE they don't like our approach either), but they're soldiers and should be treated with the same respect we want OUR soldiers treated with.

What flag do they fight under?
What country are they fighting for?


Why did we release about 85% of the inmates in abu-ghraib if they were guilty.. We at least chose guilty combatants to anal rape and beat and torture.. right?

Supposedly.. the greatest thing about America is the burden of proof that separates us from heathens and murderers.. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
-snip-

I noticed that you skirted my suggestion that you avail yourself of the facts before you continue to express an opinion that is simply and completely wrong. However, I guess the facts don't matter in your case. It's all about what you want to believe is "right." That's really sad EK, and I mean that sincerly.

 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
1. That's an arbitrary label which really means nothing. We may not like the way they fight (I'm SURE they don't like our approach either), but they're soldiers and should be treated with the same respect we want OUR soldiers treated with.

What flag do they fight under?
What country are they fighting for?

Neither of these questions goes to the root of the matter. They're human beings, which is the core foundation of Geneva. Is it morally justifiable to beat a person to death, who hasn't been tried or found guilty of ANYTHING, because he's been assigned a label that you've been propagandized into hating? If the answer to this question is yes, then you should know that it won't stop there.

 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Originally posted by: NoSmirk
I wonder how many of these same abuses happen daily in our own prisons yet nobody seems to care.

WAY too many.

Human Right Watch


The situation in prisons, jails and other penitentiary facilities is probably the most unbeliavable internal disfunction in the USA... 70% of the inmates facing rape, and huge figures for suicides, murders, HIV/AIDS...

Agreed. I almost puked when I first read some of the accounts at this link.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
-snip-

I noticed that you skirted my suggestion that you avail yourself of the facts before you continue to express an opinion that is simply and completely wrong. However, I guess the facts don't matter in your case. It's all about what you want to believe is "right." That's really sad EK, and I mean that sincerly.

I have researched the Geneva Convention.

To many want to cherry pick phrases out of it, without looking at the reasons why such phrases were inserted and what clarificaitons also exist.

The documents were developed over time in response to and understanding of the Western concepts of warfare. The ME concept that is currently happening and the way the Asian threatre operates is different. The "civilized" opponents and acceptable waging of war does not exist by the opponents as definied by the Geneva Convention.

As Strk stated
Except it does leave grounds for them in Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention. (I posted it earlier)

You also need to remember, just because they were arrested, that does not mean they were actually doing anything wrong. A lot of the people being arrested are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And they are absolutely covered.

Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

People who are in the wrong spot at the wrong time should be covered.

The problem currently comes in is that the opponents also have been educated on the convention and how to take advantage of it.

Many will intermindle among innocent civilians and/or acutally lanch attacks from with a civilian crowd hoping that that will protect them from retaliation.

How does such a situation become handled.

Allow that person to be ignored or collect the complete group and find out the guilty party.

If one lets the complete group gofree,then it just allows and encourgages another attack.

the complete setup becomes a catch-22 situation.

Given that, I would prefer to error on the side of our safety. right or wrong, many civilians chose to allow themselves to be used as cover (explicitly of implicitly).

Does a supporter of terror be allowed to walk free while the actuall deliver be held responsible for their actions.

We have a differnet opponent, therfore original military/civilian rules are not workable.

It all boils down to the fact that if the enemy wishes to fight on their rules, then we should not be handicapted by our rules when it will provide a lower risk factor for our people.

And that is a choice that each person/warrior must face when entering into conflict when given the latitude to execute a conflict.

 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
When we start acting as ruthless or more ruthless than our opponent, our current reasons for being there are meaningless.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Strk
When we start acting as ruthless or more ruthless than our opponent, our current reasons for being there are meaningless.
True; however, turning theother cheek and getting killed does not accomplish anything.

They are not being won over by kindness.

 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Strk
When we start acting as ruthless or more ruthless than our opponent, our current reasons for being there are meaningless.
True; however, turning theother cheek and getting killed does not accomplish anything.

They are not being won over by kindness.

Getting killed? Who are you talking about? I'm talking about the unarmed prisoners that we're abusing. If someone waves a gun in a street, he can expect several Marines to turn him into swiss cheese, but we're talking about unarmed and mostly innocent civilians.
 

tommywishbone

Platinum Member
May 11, 2005
2,149
0
0
The Geneva convention does not and should not apply. This ain't no war... it's ruthless mass murder and robbery. Does anyone expect gangsters and felons to obey the rules? This type of debauchery occurs when the entire organism is diseased from the top to the bottom. It's only going to get worse.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: tommywishbone
The Geneva convention does not and should not apply. This ain't no war... it's ruthless mass murder and robbery. Does anyone expect gangsters and felons to obey the rules? This type of debauchery occurs when the entire organism is diseased from the top to the bottom. It's only going to get worse.

You're missing the part about a clear majority of the people being arrested and abused are eventually found innocent and let go.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Czar
EagleKeeper,
do you support the current policy of handling suspects?

No

There are people trying to to do a professionals job (interegation) which they have not been trained for.

I feel that the policy/methods has gotten way out of hand by people playing the wink game without accountability. I can understand why it is happening and the fault seems to lie on both sides equally.

The US/Iraqi sides are reacting to situations that are being abused by the opponents.
The opponents are aware of the political problems and divisions in the system; therefore attempt to exploit it.

If nothing is done and the status quo is left in place, the amount of deaths of innocents and our troops will continue to escalate because there is no retrabution against the perps.


 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Czar
EagleKeeper,
do you support the current policy of handling suspects?

No

There are people trying to to do a professionals job (interegation) which they have not been trained for.

I feel that the policy/methods has gotten way out of hand by people playing the wink game without accountability. I can understand why it is happening and the fault seems to lie on both sides equally.

The US/Iraqi sides are reacting to situations that are being abused by the opponents.
The opponents are aware of the political problems and divisions in the system; therefore attempt to exploit it.

If nothing is done and the status quo is left in place, the amount of deaths of innocents and our troops will continue to escalate because there is no retrabution against the perps.
What do you think they should do?

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Czar
EagleKeeper,
do you support the current policy of handling suspects?

No

There are people trying to to do a professionals job (interegation) which they have not been trained for.

I feel that the policy/methods has gotten way out of hand by people playing the wink game without accountability. I can understand why it is happening and the fault seems to lie on both sides equally.

The US/Iraqi sides are reacting to situations that are being abused by the opponents.
The opponents are aware of the political problems and divisions in the system; therefore attempt to exploit it.

If nothing is done and the status quo is left in place, the amount of deaths of innocents and our troops will continue to escalate because there is no retrabution against the perps.
What do you think they should do?

The information needs to be obtained to protect people.
How the information is obtained and how to filter out the innocentents from the guilty is beyond my military/professional training to hypothesize on the methods required.

As Israel has discovered, every time you provide the benefit of the doubt to the opponent they will abuse it against you. Case in point; suicide children & females.

A few bad apples will destroy the barrel.

If the locals are not going to cooperate in identifying those that are causing the trouble, then it is difficult. We can see that the "bad" guys are worried about such a situation; they are targetting civilian authorities and the Iraqi population instead of military targets.
This is a fear tatic - identification of the bad guys is being suppressed for fear of their own lives.

I can understand the locals being afraid of home-grown opponents for fear of retaliation; however, the foriegn trouble makers that are being inserted into the mix should be able to be identified by the locals. Unless the local trouble is sponsoring the foriegners.

It ends up falling onto the locals to be willing to police themselves in order to terminate this problem. By the lacals accepting,tolerating,encouraging the issue; the situation swings from bad to worse.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
There is only one thing that will convince me that this Administration and the military is absolutely sincere about getting to the bottom of the prisoner abuse scandal:

I want to hear a pronouncement that ANYONE who attempts to punish this Army captain for making his report will suffer grave consequences, and then back up such a pronouncement with action.
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Strk
When we start acting as ruthless or more ruthless than our opponent, our current reasons for being there are meaningless.
True; however, turning theother cheek and getting killed does not accomplish anything.

They are not being won over by kindness.

Where are you getting your news? We haven't been "turning the other cheek", even before 9/11. If you think abusing helpless prisoners is gleaning anything useful, you're even more out of touch than I had thought. Torture is about just that, torture. People in authority have justified the use of torture and abuse for thousands if years; when the only reason for it is the sadistic, sexual charge it gives its practitioner. As far as Geneva, your "research" is pathetically self-serving and has the smell of a quick google search. It was designed to cover uniformed military personnel as well as civil prisoners during an armed conflict, regardless of what that ignorant, frat-boy b@stard in the Whitehouse says.

Stop worshipping airplanes and looking for authority figures to latch onto. The world, and what's been done in your name is a LOT more complex than that.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Interesting article on how this administration deemed it legal for various types of abuses (and other things).


Scholar says Bush has used obscure doctrine to extend power 95 times
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/CanExecutive_Branch_Decide_0923.html
The Bush administration has been using an extreme version of an obscure doctrine called the Unitary Executive Theory to justify executive actions that far exceed past presidents' power, RAW STORY has learned.

The doctrine assumes, in its extreme form, nearly absolute deference to the Executive branch from Congress and the Judiciary.

According to Dr. Christopher Kelley, a professor in the Department of Political Sciences at Miami University, as of April 2005, President Bush had used the doctrine 95 times when signing legislation into law, issuing an executive order, or responding to a congressional resolution.

The President announced in these signings that he would construe provisions in a manner consistent with his ?constitutional authority to supervise the unitary executive branch.? While the President clearly has the authority to supervise the executive branch, it is unclear how far he might construe this authority under the unitary executive theory.

The Administration?s actions under this doctrine have become so extreme that even conservatives on the Supreme Court who are sympathetic to the unitary executive theory have felt compelled to reject them. Last year the Court >ruled that the President does not have absolute authority to detain enemy combatants without due process.

In fact, according to Calabresi and Yoo, ?a veritable all-star list of constitutional scholars? has rejected judicial supremacy, considering it inconsistent with the idea of checks and balances among the three branches of the federal government.

The President announced in these signings that he would construe provisions in a manner consistent with his "constitutional authority to supervise the unitary executive branch." While the President clearly has the authority to supervise the executive branch, it is unclear how far he might construe this authority under the unitary executive theory.

The Administration?s actions under this doctrine have become so prevalent that even conservatives on the Supreme Court who are sympathetic to the unitary executive theory have felt compelled to reject them. Last year, for example, the Court ruled that the President does not have absolute authority to detain enemy combatants without due process.

Unitarian vs. Non-Unitarian theoreticians

The unitary executive doctrine, in its mildest form, claims only that the President has the power to appoint, control, and remove executive officers, as well as the duty to interpret the law as it applies to his office.

The doctrine is being used by the Bush Administration, however, to claim the authority to decide what is and what is not the law in areas that some legal experts view as suspect. Michael A. Froomkin, professor at University of Miami Law School, told RAW STORY that some of Bush?s applications of the doctrine are ?highly dubious.?

Under the Constitution, the president?s role is to ?take care that the laws be faithfully executed.? Congress has the power to make the laws and the judiciary interprets the law.

For over 200 years, the United States Supreme Court has been viewed as the final arbiter of what is and what is not the law. ?It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is,? declared Chief Justice John Marshall in 1803. ?This is the very essence of judicial duty.?

But unitary executive theoreticians claim that judicial supremacy over interpretation of the laws is not and never has been exclusive. Professors Steven J. Calabresi and Christopher S. Yoo have noted that ?the suggestion that the Supreme Court may not have the last word on matters of constitutional interpretation seems at first to be quite jarring to modern lawyers? but Marshall?s famous opinion ?never claimed that interpretation of the law was the exclusive province of the courts.?

Froomkin, who has debated this issue on the law review circuit, is a non-Unitarian who acknowledged to RAW STORY that the president has not only the power -- but the duty -- to interpret the Constitution in certain instances, as when he vetoes a bill.

?The President has a duty not to undermine his own office,? he says.

According to Froomkin, a problem arises when the president views himself as completely above the law or is so secretive that no checks and balances can work. The greatest danger is when Congress doesn?t adequately assert itself, he asserts.

The Miami professor noted that Congress did not react to the legality of the Guantanamo detentions. Nor did they respond when the CIA used an unmanned plane fitted with a five-foot-long Hellfire missile to kill a senior al Qaeda leader as he was riding in a car in the Yemeni desert, also killing a naturalized U.S. citizen.

Congress has never questioned the order to assassinate these individuals, even though the CIA has been banned from conducting or participating in assassinations since 1976.

The major difference between Unitarians and non-Unitarians, according to Froomkin, is that Unitarians believe the President can do what he likes and non-Unitarians believe there are boundaries and limits to executive power.

The Geneva Convention

Froomkin also sees the selective nonapplication of the Geneva Conventions to certain designated enemy combatants and the military tribunals as legally dubious.

The Administration?s claim that it has the authority to decide what is or is not the law is most manifest in its decision not to apply the Geneva Conventions to certain persons. A 2003 memo on torture written by Department of Defense lawyers stated that ?criminal statutes are not read as infringing on the president?s ultimate authority? as commander-in-chief, and prohibitions on torture ?must be construed as inapplicable to interrogations.?

?Congress may no more regulate the president?s ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield,? said the memo.

White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales wrote in 2002 that the Geneva Conventions were ?obsolete? and ?quaint? and argued that Bush had the constitutional authority to determine that Geneva did not apply to al Qaeda or the Taliban.

Several mainstream legal scholars have declared that the President?s claim of unlimited executive power turns the Constitution on its head. University of Texas law professor Douglas Laycock told the L.A. Times that ?It is just wrong to say the president can do whatever he wants, even if it is against the law.?

Charles Gittings, founder of the Project to Enforce the Geneva Conventions, asserts that the President?s decision not to apply Geneva, or to apply it selectively, is a grave breach of the Convention and thus a violation of the War Crimes Act of 1996.

?The President has no Constitutional authority to commit crimes,? he said.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Geneva Convention only covers military actions between countries and only when the opposing parties are both wearing a uniform that identifies them as combatants. Anything else is merely a civil matter. I did not agree with this supposed war, but we dont bother to declare war anymore so everything done in Iraq is technically illegal.
 

486

Banned
Sep 28, 2005
21
0
0
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: NoSmirk
I wonder how many of these same abuses happen daily in our own prisons yet nobody seems to care.

Of course, that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand (unless you literally think two wrongs make a right), and, even if true, will not have the collateral effect of endangering American GIs, unlike the prisoner abuse that's the subject of this article.

So remind us again, who were you before you were banned?

Endangering American GIs...Oh, please. It is so pathetic. Are they soldiers or what? Army is not a bunch of professors. If you get captured, you will be tortured. Fair and square.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
So, you don't mind our soldiers being tortured? I do...big time. And so do Sens. Biden and McCain.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
91
Originally posted by: 486

Endangering American GIs...Oh, please. It is so pathetic. Are they soldiers or what? Army is not a bunch of professors. If you get captured, you will be tortured. Fair and square.

Spoken by, I am quite sure, a person who's never served and doesn't care about those who do.
 

486

Banned
Sep 28, 2005
21
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
So, you don't mind our soldiers being tortured? I do...big time. And so do Sens. Biden and McCain.

Haha, this is rich...
I did not see neither Biden nor McCain quiting Republican Party over Rumsfeld torture doctrine. So, it just words, words, words...Grand posture for CNN viewers.

If a man's IQ is so low that he joined US Army, then I am not surprised that he commits torture of POWs and I won't be losing my sleep if he get tortured himself.

Actually, american soldiers tortured by arabs is good news for America, as it will boost the morale, increase patritism, and US can use it in mass media propaganda to increase army recruitment, as most americans would be disguisted, angered and willing to avenge "the fallen heros". It will finally shut down the discent among democrats. Also, US can present to the whole world those tortures and show "what beasts we are fighting against".
 

486

Banned
Sep 28, 2005
21
0
0
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: 486

Endangering American GIs...Oh, please. It is so pathetic. Are they soldiers or what? Army is not a bunch of professors. If you get captured, you will be tortured. Fair and square.

Spoken by, I am quite sure, a person who's never served and doesn't care about those who do.

I am a free man, I do not owe anything to anyone. If anyone is willing to endure hardhships or even die for my desire to drive bigger SUV, I salute and laugh.

 
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