German exchange student killed in Montana by home owner.

[MongGrel]

I took a nonstop on Alaska from SEA to MIA about ten years ago, first time in FL, stayed in Ft. Lauderdale. Wished I spent more time in the 'glades and had been able to fish, maybe even take a charter for a half day.

I know people rip on FL a lot, but if you like the boating/fishing lifestyle, it is hard to beat.

Cocaine is real cheap there too.

Yeah been up there a bit actually myself, have a cousin does AI I think for Microsoft and some distant relatives up there that are pretty well off.

Passed through many years ago heading to Vancouver for an Inner Passage cruise years ago, I love it up there in the Summer.

 

[davmat787]

Yeah been up there a bit actually myself, have a cousin does AI I think for Microsoft and some distant relatives up there that are pretty well off.

Passed through many years ago heading to Vancouver for an Inner Passage cruise years ago, I love it up there in the Summer.

Vancouver and the surrounding area is awesome, especially in the summer as you said.

 

[werepossum]

Sorry if I was not clear, at the point I was referring to convicted felons who harmed, even targeted, foreign visitors/guests as they were an easy mark. That deserves a harsher sentence IMO, not only are they guests but incidences against foreigners plays a huge role in PR world wide.

Maybe its my Hungarian blood and their sense of duty when it comes to guests.

With that I can wholeheartedly agree.

I took a nonstop on Alaska from SEA to MIA about ten years ago, first time in FL, stayed in Ft. Lauderdale. Wished I spent more time in the 'glades and had been able to fish, maybe even take a charter for a half day.

I know people rip on FL a lot, but if you like the boating/fishing lifestyle, it is hard to beat.

Cocaine is real cheap there too.

No interest in nose candy, but personally I like G-d's waiting room. I just prefer the mountains, but I would like to get back down there for some fishing.

Then that's what I don't get?

thug enters garage (occupied dwelling), thug gets dead. What's the story?

Oh, I know....mah baby didn do nuffin.

Thug seems a bit strong. Thief, probably.

 

[spidey07]

You enter somebody's property knowing full well you may get dead is a thug.

That's the risk he took and the likely outcome is proper.

 

[davmat787]

No interest in nose candy, but personally I like G-d's waiting room. I just prefer the mountains, but I would like to get back down there for some fishing

Wouldn't even know what to do with it if it was in front of me to be honest. Just a reaction to a documentary, Mexican meth is replacing so much of the Colombian coke market. Part of why their has been large increases in border violence too.

When you say mountains, are you talking about the hills I mean mountains you have in TN or Mountains such as Rainier, Baker, and St. Helens? If you don't need crampons, rope, and an iceaxe to climb it, it ain't no stinkin' mountain.

 

[werepossum]

You enter somebody's property knowing full well you may get dead is a thug.

That's the risk he took and the likely outcome is proper.

He's a Turkish immigrant growing up in Germany - he may well not have known that at all.

 

[davmat787]

He's a Turkish immigrant growing up in Germany - he may well not have known that at all.

So he may have kind of looked sort of Muslim, depending on facial hair right? That changes everything of course. :awe:

 

[werepossum]

So he may have kind of looked sort of Muslim, depending on facial hair right? That changes everything of course. :awe:

Hell, he probably IS a Muslim. (Is this where I'm supposed to say good shoot?)

I can't imagine shooting a thief and then finding out I've killed a teenager. That would be horrible.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Like for instance:

By which you mean leaving your garage door partially open to let out the smoke from your cigarettes and leaving a purse hiding in the corner that no one can see from the street?

No, by which I mean Kaarma, after two break-ins, telling a witness he intended to kill an intruder in his house, then setting up motion detectors and video cameras in his garage, leaving a purse with "tagged" items inside (in order that they could be more easily traced in the event of a theft) in an open garage, then, when the motion detector triggered and it was clear from the video that someone was in the garage, proceeding out into the garage and firing four shotgun rounds at the intruder without calling out or doing anything to ascertain whether he posed a threat.

The Smith case, like this one, involved a homeowner who was appropriately upset after multiple break-ins, and who (less appropriately) created a situation in which it was highly likely a break-in would occur, then shot the intruders without warning, whether or not they posed a threat. I actually think the Smith case is more defensible than Kaarma's in that at least Smith's intruders had to break into the house in order to get killed. Kaarma essentially enticed his victim into his garage under circumstances in which (as was not true in the Smith case), there was a significant chance that the intruder would be innocent of any intent to commit a crime. Here, I see no reason to think that the victim would ever have posed any threat to Kaarma or his girlfriend whatsoever.

Setting aside the merits of Montana law (and personally I have no problem with the law as written), this seems to me like a fairly clear-cut case of intentional homicide, and in my view this is not acceptable behavior in any civilized society. I have no problem with a citizen killing someone in legitimate self defense, but I do have a problem with a citizen baiting a trap that is likely to ensnare not only people who would not otherwise commit a crime, and even people with no criminal intent at all, then killing anyone who stumbles into it. This isn't fucking Yemen. IMO he should be charged with first-degree murder, and the jury can determine whether they believe he acted in self-defense. If the girlfriend knew he intended to do this and facilitated it by lending him her purse, she should be charged with conspiracy to commit murder.

 

[davmat787]

Hell, he probably IS a Muslim. (Is this where I'm supposed to say good shoot?)

I can't imagine shooting a thief and then finding out I've killed a teenager. That would be horrible.

I think the occurrence of shooting 21 and younger is directly proportional to how close you live to a college campus multiplied by the total number of students.

 

[CitizenKain]

Then that's what I don't get?

thug enters garage (occupied dwelling), thug gets dead. What's the story?

Oh, I know....mah baby didn do nuffin.

Because for the most part, people are in Montana are better then the kind of people who have the batshit insane Castle Doctrine laws. Those people are abject cowards who hide behind a gun instead of acting like an adult. I know this is complex thinking for someone like you, do you know an adult who can explain things for you?

 

[OCGuy]

Because for the most part, people are in Montana are better then the kind of people who have the batshit insane Castle Doctrine laws. Those people are abject cowards who hide behind a gun instead of acting like an adult. I know this is complex thinking for someone like you, do you know an adult who can explain things for you?

Montana absolutely has Castle in effect, and the accused's attorney already said they will be using as their defense.

 

[werepossum]

I think the occurrence of shooting 21 and younger is directly proportional to how close you live to a college campus multiplied by the total number of students.

No doubt.

 

[nehalem256]

I can't imagine shooting a thief and then finding out I've killed a teenager. That would be horrible.

I would imagine if you shot a thief there is a very high probability he is a teenager. And if not he is likely to be in his 20s.

Not too many 70 year old burglars.

 

[werepossum]

I think the occurrence of shooting 21 and younger is directly proportional to how close you live to a college campus multiplied by the total number of students.

I would imagine if you shot a thief there is a very high probability he is a teenager. And if not he is likely to be in his 20s.

Not too many 70 year old burglars.

That's a good point, but it would still suck. Although a lot of the burglars arrested locally are in their thirties and older.

Although maybe that's just because they don't run as fast.

 

[CitizenKain]

Montana absolutely has Castle in effect, and the accused's attorney already said they will be using as their defense.

I didn't clarify extremely well, the state does have them, but they don't seem as hilariously open ended to gunning down strangers as much as spidey wishes.

Montana has a castle law with a “stand-your-ground” clause. Under the law, the use of deadly force is permissible to prevent felonies from being committed in one’s home or to protect against assault within one’s home.

The statute reads:

45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.

(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:

(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or

(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.

None of those are "spray yoru shotgun into your garage with a raging erection." Unlike say, Texas.

 

[Daverino]

I didn't clarify extremely well, the state does have them, but they don't seem as hilariously open ended to gunning down strangers as much as spidey wishes.



None of those are "spray yoru shotgun into your garage with a raging erection." Unlike say, Texas.

Looks like Montana's law is pretty clear cut. No threat, no shoot. Throw in the fact that the shooter was apparently high and upset about getting his weed stolen and it looks like you have another trigger-happy loser on our hands.

 

[shira]

Updates:
Sounds like good shoot to me.

It's very interesting how you uncritically accept the attorney's after-the-fact version of events, that unsurprisingly just happens to portray the accused as having completely benign intentions. And you completely ignore the statements made by the accused and his wife during their interview by police. As reported earlier:

and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police. They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said. When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.

But now that we have the defense attorney's version of the events, that obviously must be the truth. Why even bother going to trial?

 

[Svnla]

Did the guy enter the garage? Don't want to get shot? Don't enter people's garage/house/shed/<fill in the blank>.

I drove past many nice neighborhoods recently and many of the houses had their garages wide openned (with a lot of stuffs inside and no one was around) because of spring cleaninng and yard work. I kept on driving and did not enter those places = I did not get shot. Shocking eh?

 

[feralkid]

Kaarma's a bitch.







Well, certainly will be as soon as he's in prison.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Did the guy enter the garage? Don't want to get shot? Don't enter people's garage/house/shed/<fill in the blank>.

I drove past many nice neighborhoods recently and many of the houses had their garages wide openned (with a lot of stuffs inside and no one was around) because of spring cleaninng and yard work. I kept on driving and did not enter those places = I did not get shot. Shocking eh?

Before my youngest took off on his American tour, I showed him this board and made sure he seen that things are very different down there. He never thought that so many people were waiting to shoot him at any given chance, for things that just wouldn't occur to him.
I insisted he leave his hoodie home for example
He made it back just fine, had a great time, made lot's of American friends.

 

[TerryMathews]

Before my youngest took off on his American tour, I showed him this board and made sure he seen that things are very different down there. He never thought that so many people were waiting to shoot him at any given chance, for things that just wouldn't occur to him.
I insisted he leave his hoodie home for example
He made it back just fine, had a great time, made lot's of American friends.

Lol Canada.

 

[BUnit1701]

There's no evidence such a thing happens.

You're calling for something approaching Holocaust levels of mass death within your own country. That's monstrous.

Not our problem you hold a deep reverence for the right to life of sick psycopathic murderers and such. The rest of us believe in symbolic retribution, those who commit horrible unspeakable acts are no longer entitled to existence.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Lol Canada.

Hell, I've been to the states a thousand times and still had no idea either
My family has been living in Texas like forever and they still have to come across people like some on this board

 

[TerryMathews]

Hell, I've been to the states a thousand times and still had no idea either
My family has been living in Texas like forever and they still have to come across people like some on this board

But yet you just know your paranoid is well-founded?