German soldiers after WWII

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Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
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Eh the Nazi party was pretty outright in their goals and plans. That said I do agree for an avg German they may have joined the party for other reasons. In a single party state. The party becomes a pre-requisite for advancing in life. So of the several million party members it is possible a % of them didnt believe in the faith.

As an example I did contract work for a Polish woman who moved here 20 years ago. She was a teacher in Poland under the communists. She joined the communist party because that was the only way to become a teacher.

That's correct.

People become part of government agenda.

No different than US today.

 

BlitzPuppet

Platinum Member
Feb 4, 2012
2,460
7
81
Did you know that many German POW's did not return home until 5 to 10 years after the war was over.
A couple soldiers who were in the war from the beginning (1939) did not return home until the 1955 or thereabouts.

Can you imagine basically fighting for your life and witnessing TERRIBLE things for at least 15 years!! Wow!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union

Watch this war movie from the German POW point of view. It is a true story by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=As+Far+as+My+Feet+Will+Carry+Me

The Russians and Germans truly hated eachother :/

I would not have wanted to be a POW to either opposite.

With all this talk about Nazism and such earlier in the thread, not every soldier was like this in WWII...most didn't care (just like today in the states). The Waffen-SS and the Heer (German Army) did NOT get along. Think of it like the Army and Marines rivalry that goes on in the states, except much worse.

WWII history is so interesting, I love reading up on the subject since we weren't taught much in school other than "Germans started the war! American won and dropped nukes on Japan! HURRAY!".
 
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Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
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WWII history is so interesting, I love reading up on the subject since we weren't taught much in school other than "German started the war! American won and dropped nukes on Japan! HURRAY!".

I have gotten 20x more broad education of history and WW2 in "propaganda/communist Poland" than I ever did in US.

Not even a contest. History lessons in US consisted of 90% American stuff and 10% of "other worthless stuff".
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
Read Rick Atkinson's Liberation Trilogy. It is an excellent series on the war in Europe. It is very long and sometimes hard reading due to all the unit numbers, people, places, and military terminology, but still does a great job of telling the story of the war.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
207
106
What's all this business about WWII? Do you not mean the Great Patriotic War?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,557
27,861
136
I have gotten 20x more broad education of history and WW2 in "propaganda/communist Poland" than I ever did in US.

Not even a contest. History lessons in US consisted of 90% American stuff and 10% of "other worthless stuff".

That's the way it always is with the side that wins. We won, why delve deeper? In high school history class we learned about the Marshall Plan but not about the Morgenthau Plan that preceeded it.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
I have gotten 20x more broad education of history and WW2 in "propaganda/communist Poland" than I ever did in US.

Not even a contest. History lessons in US consisted of 90% American stuff and 10% of "other worthless stuff".

Which class taught you how to put that chip on your shoulder?
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
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www.markbetz.net
It's been said that WW2 started the day after the signing of the treaty of Versailles, almost every economic burden possible was placed on Germany, they were to pay reparations that crippled their economy and lent to a lack of pride to be German. Hitler was keen on this and used it extensively in his rise to power. Really I don't think the average German who joined the Nazi party had any idea what Hitler had in mind or else the might have opted not to support him. After he became Fuhrer no one dared cross him or the Nazi party, you would be shot for thinking otherwise.

I don't think every German knew exactly how nuts Hitler would prove to be, but there was no attempt to hide the virulent nationalism, and each and every one of them was aware of how he viewed the world and their place in it. You're right about Versailles, which is what I meant by my offhand comment about their lot in the last war. But that doesn't absolve them as a people. They absolved themselves the only way possible: by turning away from that era and moving on to become one of the world's great nations again, but on the basis of freedom and enterprise this time, not militarism.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
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I don't think every German knew exactly how nuts Hitler would prove to be, but there was no attempt to hide the virulent nationalism, and each and every one of them was aware of how he viewed the world and their place in it. You're right about Versailles, which is what I meant by my offhand comment about their lot in the last war. But that doesn't absolve them as a people. They absolved themselves the only way possible: by turning away from that era and moving on to become one of the world's great nations again, but on the basis of freedom and enterprise this time, not militarism.

They seem to rule the EU economy with a iron fist.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,622
2,189
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Eh the Nazi party was pretty outright in their goals and plans.
Yes.

But, in 1939 there hadn't been a Nazi party - WWII yet. Mentality was different.

Nations and their rulers viewed war as we do sports today. As long as you declared war correctly, you had the divine right to go and steal someone's land; what really shocked Europe in 1939 was not the hate for the jews(which had problems just about everywhere else before), but the blitzkrieg, or waging war without going through a formal declaration of war. It was considered .. uncivilized.

The eugenic theories which Hitler loved so much were common in scientific circles. Most of these actually came from the US, if you want to know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics

In the first years of the war, most of the atrocities were kept hidden from the german Army, as this was an old, traditional, honorable army who would have strongly disapproved of Hitler's methods and would have surely rioted if they had known about the treatment of polish and jewish POVs.
Later on, the cat was out of the bag, but again, mentality failed to make them see how slaughtering jews was "bad", and they went along with it.

The SS - the troops who committed the most and vilest atrocities - were under direct control of Hitler, and the Army hated them. Of course the army as well committed "atrocities" but so do all armies, you have to see it in perspective.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
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Completely different.
Which political party in the U.S. must one join to become a teacher?

When it comes to private sector, none.

But if you want to work in the public sector, you do have to join Teachers union no?

And although a teacher doesn't have to join any political party, remember, politicians do drive what teachers do and teach........and they are trained/educated in our great colleges (which push even more "government" crap/ways).

It really depends on the perspective of how you look at things. Sure in US it's not "100% on the surface" or "in your face".

But if you doubt that it isn't there, you are simply blind.

As with anything, there is whole lot of masks and covers one has to undo to find out the reality in this great country.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
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Which class taught you how to put that chip on your shoulder?

I'm just telling you I've been part of 2 completely opposite education systems and have seen more propaganda here in US than I did in the "bad bad bad communist country".

What does that tell you?
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
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That's the way it always is with the side that wins.

And then there is above.

Side that wins? I'm pretty sure US was NOT the only side that won. Russia won......England won......Canada won........it wasn't JUST US effort.

Yet, I have not been taught much of that in US, but knew it well from my country of origin.

Cause let's not forget that WOMEN/CHILDREN and citizens of this country were as big of the winners as military was as well. Without them, supplies would've been dried up/nothing would happen.

No one seems to talk about any of that......or American citizens that lost their freedom cause they happened to have a family member from Japan......then went off to fight in Europe for "their country" and were one of the best units our Army had!

I'm pretty sure our government doesn't want to teach Americans how they stripped them of their rights at their convenience....

 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
207
106
I'm just telling you I've been part of 2 completely opposite education systems and have seen more propaganda here in US than I did in the "bad bad bad communist country".

What does that tell you?

That you internalized more elements of the communist propaganda because you were exposed to it from a young age. Or is that not the answer you wanted? There are often several different reasonable conclusions that can be drawn from a question, given how vague and subjective most questions are.
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
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And then there is above.

Side that wins? I'm pretty sure US was NOT the only side that won. Russia won......England won......Canada won........it wasn't JUST US effort.

Yet, I have not been taught much of that in US, but knew it well from my country of origin.

Cause let's not forget that WOMEN/CHILDREN and citizens of this country were as big of the winners as military was as well. Without them, supplies would've been dried up/nothing would happen.

No one seems to talk about any of that......or American citizens that lost their freedom cause they happened to have a family member from Japan......then went off to fight in Europe for "their country" and were one of the best units our Army had!

I'm pretty sure our government doesn't want to teach Americans how they stripped them of their rights at their convenience....


Really? I learned about almost all of those things in school. Sounds like you just went to a shitty school and applied your experience to an entire nation.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
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Really? I learned about almost all of those things in school. Sounds like you just went to a shitty school and applied your experience to an entire nation.

I'm pretty sure we all know (at this point) that most of America has crappy schools/school systems.

So perhaps you went to very few of the good ones?

I'm happy for you
 

BlitzPuppet

Platinum Member
Feb 4, 2012
2,460
7
81
Anyone who is interested:

Read up on a few German fighting men, completely non political and shows how crazily well trained and/or skilled these guys were against the opposition.

Werner Mölders
Erich Hartmann (highest scoring fighter ace of all time)
Hans-Ulrich Rudel

The interesting thing that relates to this thread is how Mölders honors were reversed in 2005 due to arguments on whether he was generally "supportive" of national socialism or not.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Interesting feedback on WWII, thanks. There is an entire forum devoted to rep/dem mudslinging so I would hate for this thread to devolve into that..
 

WT

Diamond Member
Sep 21, 2000
4,818
59
91
Just a note, but Nazis were a political party, most soldiers were just rank and file grunts with no Nazi affiliation. They were conscripted to fight for their country. No different than US soldiers going to Vietnam.

They were sons, brothers and soldiers who ended up on the wrong side of politics out of no volition of their own.

Not to say the SS and Nazis weren't total shitbags, they were. But the average soldier wasn't a Nazi.

+1. Well said :thumbsup:
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,776
31
81
The answer at Reddit is spot on. Why discuss further?

First, there was Denazification. This itself took two tracks. First, for a small minority it meant trial, imprisonment, and/or death. But then the policy of Containment took off from the Potsdam Conference so containing the new enemy became most important. So second, this meant that many ex-Nazis found themselves in the conservative Adenauer administration. People were needed to run a country and options were limited.

Germany moved on, rebuilt itself (mostly by women), dealt with an East-West divide and pretty rapidly by the 50s with Marshall Fund support, had an economic miracle recovery brewing.

There was indeed a bit of haste to heal, rebuild, and move on, fight the Soviets, and in that short duration there was no time for collective memory. This did not happen until the children and grandchildren of the WWII generation started asking questions, particularly during the peace movements of the late 60s. But substantial education reform did not occur until the late 70s when the TV miniseries Holocaust debuted. This became the catalyst for public debate and reform.

Today in Germany you do see monuments to WWI and in the former Eastern states you see many more monuments dedicated to the Communist victory over Fascism. But that's it. The biggest and most significant monuments to WWII come in the form of restored 'Memorial' concentration camps that remain witness to the atrocities. Examples include Dachau near Munich and Buchenwald near Weimer and even Sachsenhausen near Berlin. Many many other monuments representing collecting memory and reflection exist in the form of 'trip stones' and even the three memorials in Berlin that flank the Brandenburg Gate: Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, Memorial to the Murdered Sinti and Roma, and the Memorial to the Murdered Homosexuals.

When approached appropriately with maturity, all Germans I know are willing to discuss the topic, not only personally but also as a German. The subject is taught through-and-through in all secondary grades. A visit to a camp memorial site is often required. It is also illegal in Germany to denounce the Holocaust as well as display any Nazi symbols. With the exception of the youngest Germans (under 25 or 30), there indeed remains a collective national guilt and this perhaps is most emphasized by a certain collective pacifist nature as well as a refusal of most national overtones. Most Germans don't raise or show their flag and don't sing their national anthem...unless it's associated with a soccer game of sorts. Germans source their national pride in other things...like education...producing skilled workers...making nice things...winning soccer games.

For some of you, this may be an interesting read: How Germans are Learning to Like Themselves.
 
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monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
They absolved themselves the only way possible: by turning away from that era and moving on to become one of the world's great nations again, but on the basis of freedom and enterprise this time, not militarism.

+1 well said

As for Hannah Reitsch's "I am not ashamed to say I believed in National Socialism. I still wear the Iron Cross with diamonds Hitler gave me." she can stuff it where the sun don't shine
 
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