Getting ready to order... still have a couple questions

[Sleepingforest]

I think we are misunderstanding each other.

You, if I understand correctly:

• Are planning on using Photoshop to create a comic (essentially).
• You want to multitask (run iTunes and a browser in the background?)
• This is a RAM intensive activity.
• You are worried 16GB is not enough.
• You want a RAMdisk.

Roughly in that order of priorities.

I am confused because:

• If 16GB is not enough for Photoshop alone, how can 32GB be enough for Photoshop, a RAMdisk, and multitasking?
• The RAMdisk essentially doubles your RAM usage: for each image Photoshop wants in the RAM, you have it again for quick access. However:

Installing Photoshop on a solid-state disk (SSD) allows Photoshop to launch fast, probably in less than a second. But that speedier startup is the only time savings you experience. That’s the only time when much data is read from the SSD.

• This implies that the faster speed of a RAMdisk is also pretty much unnecessary.

This implicates that a RAMdisk is inefficient use of resources.


I am sorry if I come across as flip-flopping around. Here are my points exactly:

• 32GB is a good choice since Photoshop says so. That's fine and irrefutable.
• Lowering this amount by using a RAMdisk is bad for your usage overall.
• You have the budget to both max RAM and get an SSD, which is Photoshop's next recommended option.
• NOWHERE does Adobe recommend using a RAMdisk. If a RAMdisk was really so great for Photoshop, why doesn't Adobe recommend it?

 

[LightField]

If 16GB is not enough for Photoshop alone, how can 32GB be enough for Photoshop, a RAMdisk, and multitasking?

This is the mistake I think is being made.. I don't ever recall saying that 16GBs wasn't enough for ME to use Photoshop... If I did it was unintentional and I was referring to my overall usage... not just Photoshop. And when I say multi-tasking I don't mean music etc.. I mean many different programs websites videos etc etc etc.. WHILE manipulating very weighty files in photoshop.

This implies that the faster speed of a RAMdisk is also pretty much unnecessary.
This implicates that a RAMdisk is inefficient use of resources.

This is also wrong in my case... to me being able to access all my information instantly is far more important than boot times....

I would rather wait while everything loads into my RAM than be working and constantly having to wait for things to load. I repeatedly said boot time isn't an issue if you rarely shut your PC down...

This is why I said people may not be able to understand where I am coming from. This project is very very intense... mentally. Maybe even impossible. I need all the help I can get from the equipment to handle this. I am dealing with an immense amount of information... but written information is not like video information.. it will load up my RAM but NOT an SSD.... so I don't need an SSD for this work...

 

[LightField]

One thing I don't understand is why people are so concerned with boot times... yeah if you are starting your PC and it WASN'T getting all the files and programs you need ready and it was STILL slow THEN I could understand people being upset about boot times.. but these are two totally different things.

 

[Sleepingforest]

Okay, wait, what do you mean by "information?" Do you mean text files, or do you mean video and photo files that are going into Photoshop? Clarify exactly what you mean.

For example on multitasking, Steam (for games), iTunes (pretty demanding on resources), Spotify (internet music streaming just to increase load), Google Chrome with 5 tabs, and Firefox with 3 tabs is only 1.9GB of RAM.

I think you misunderstand what programs do with RAM and what pagefiling/scratch disks are. Scratch disks and page files are only used if all your RAM is filled. The programs first try to fill up RAM and then go to disk if this is impossible. All the work of loading, altering, saving, and so on is done in RAM. Once you are done AND ONLY THEN, it is saved (like when you push "save" in Microsoft Word or Photoshop).

Your computer does not normally constantly back up RAM. It only does so when you direct it to by saving. That's why if you don't save a file before turning the computer off, the changes are deleted.

Also, I personally was concerned with boot times because the time consumed waiting for a boot may not ever be matched by time saved in the middle of a project by using a RAMdisk (unless your computer is always on, which is pretty risky with a RAMdisk).

 

[LightField]

I mean several art programs... all my notes, PDFs, comics, images for references.. books, videos that I need to research and document... many websites and web videos... evernote.. Scrivener... Sketchup....

 

[Sleepingforest]

Okay, that kind of usage calls for having lots of RAM (so it doesn't have to reload), not a RAMdisk. Having a RAMdisk is redundant for many of those things, simply because your computer must (due to the way it works) keep the image/video/whatever in RAM and on the disk.

That means putting the files on RAMdisk means it's in your RAM twice--your computer simply doesn't realize it because you've called part of it a drive.

Why don't you simply have your computer open all these files at once when you boot it by default? With a large amount of RAM (which I admit, and have admitted for the last page or so to be necessary), they will simply remain open for you to use.

The same effect, without having to deal with RAMdisks.

 

[LightField]

I think you misunderstand what programs do with RAM and what pagefiling/scratch disks are. Scratch disks and page files are only used if all your RAM is filled. The programs first try to fill up RAM and then go to disk if this is impossible. All the work of loading, altering, saving, and so on is done in RAM. Once you are done AND ONLY THEN, it is saved (like when you push "save" in Microsoft Word or Photoshop).

Your computer does not normally constantly back up RAM. It only does so when you direct it to by saving. That's why if you don't save a file before turning the computer off, the changes are deleted

What makes you think I don't understand this?

 

[LightField]

Why don't you simply have your computer open all these files at once when you boot it by default? With a large amount of RAM (which I admit, and have admitted for the last page or so to be necessary), they will simply remain open for you to use.

The same effect, without having to deal with RAMdisks.

I asked that earlier... I asked if there was some way to load these things into memory automatically at startup....

I did a search for this and the only thing I found to do this was a RAMDisk...

Also, I said I could change the allocation in RAM for PS vs research depending on how much RAM I needed for different processes.. I would have had to do the same kind of thing with a SSD too...


Also, what if the RAMdisk info was read only... would it still be loaded twice into RAM?

 

[Sleepingforest]

That's untrue. You can, for example, have programs start by default with your computer. Then you can set settings for each program to have certain files pop up by default, or type out a .BAT file to make it happen for you via command line, and have the .BAT file run by default.

If the RAMdisk info was read only, I believe it would still exist twice in the RAM.

I don't want to discourage you. I'm just trying to help you find ways to accomplish what you want without a RAMdisk (which is wasteful, because as I said, you'd have everything in the RAM twice then).

 

[LightField]

The RAMdisk isn't wasteful to me though because I value the speed and convenience it provides in my situation.

How could I search for the info you are talking about to load the files I need? Would I have to make something to load every piece I need? That could be a real pain... with a RAMdisk I think you just throw everything in the drive.

 

[Sleepingforest]

Err... maybe you posted before I edited? You can, just once, create a .BAT file which tells Windows to open up specific programs and files. Then have that .BAT file open automatically when Windows boots (or just double click on it).

 

[LightField]

So just do a search for .BAT file? Is this how they are commonly used?

 

[Sleepingforest]

These two links should get you started:

• Opening a specific file with .BAT
  
  http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080531133217AAzypZl
• Automatically opening a .BAT on startup

 

[LightField]

I am not sure if this is going to work for my needs, Sleepingforest. With the batch file wouldn't everything open onto your desktop? Or can you load things into RAM so they are all ready to be opened without actually being opened?

 

[mfenn]

I mean several art programs... all my notes, PDFs, comics, images for references.. books, videos that I need to research and document... many websites and web videos... evernote.. Scrivener... Sketchup....

A RAMdisk is a terrible idea for these. You WILL lose or corrupt your data the first time you encounter a power outage or BSOD if you have all your stuff in a RAMdisk.

I think what people are missing about using the RAMdisk for data is that the software I am using loads the data into the RAMdisk drive automatically... and it backs it up automatically.
.

OK, so you back everything up automatically. What do you back it up to? A hard disk. You then have two options:

1. Asynchronously (every so often) back up the data. This means that in a failure situation you lose everything that has changed since the last backup. Or worse, the failure occurs during mid backup and you corrupt all your data.

2. Synchronously back up your data. This means that the RAMdisk is no faster than your hard disk.

You're fundamentally putting yourself into a no-win situation by keeping vital data on a RAMdisk.

 

[Sleepingforest]

Why wouldn't you want them all opened? It's organized by Windows anyway, so it isn't particularly hard to find the thing you need if you keep them minimized.

If you have enough RAM, those windows can be accessed instantly. It's everything you want, except instead of having a directory on a RAMdisk, you just have all the windows open by default.

 

[mfenn]

What makes you think I don't understand this?

This:

Also, what if the RAMdisk info was read only... would it still be loaded twice into RAM?

The fact that you're even asking this question means that you only have a tenuous grasp on how memory is used in the computer. This is not meant as an insult, it is a simple statement of fact.

 

[LightField]

You're fundamentally putting yourself into a no-win situation by keeping vital data on a RAMdisk.

I'm not understanding this though because Photoshop does the same thing. You save to HDD with Photoshop from RAM as well...

It periodically saves just like the RAMDisk software....

If I lost a little data it wouldn't be the end of the world. I could re-do that work just like with Photoshop.

 

[LightField]

This:



The fact that you're even asking this question means that you only have a tenuous grasp on how memory is used in the computer. This is not meant as an insult, it is a simple statement of fact.

I may not be expressing what I am imagining properly as well.... I am not sure of the proper terminology.

I don't take it as an insult.. I sure don't claim to be that knowledgeable... But one thing I am knowledgeable about is my project and what would benefit me...

 

[Sleepingforest]

Lightfield. Focus a bit. What is wrong exactly with having all the windows you need minimized by default as Windows boots? Because that'll give you instant access without dealing with a RAMdisk.

 

[LightField]

Why wouldn't you want them all opened? It's organized by Windows anyway, so it isn't particularly hard to find the thing you need if you keep them minimized.

If you have enough RAM, those windows can be accessed instantly. It's everything you want, except instead of having a directory on a RAMdisk, you just have all the windows open by default.

Because it's an immense amount of info - files/documents. The way I imagine it is that I would have too many open documents to make sense of. With the RAMdisk the files are organized... and immediately ready to open as if they were opened already.

Unless there is another way to do this..

 

[mfenn]

I'm not understanding this though because Photoshop does the same thing. You save to HDD with Photoshop from RAM as well...

It periodically saves just like the RAMDisk software....

If I lost a little data it wouldn't be the end of the world. I could re-do that work just like with Photoshop.

Photoshop (or any other program) has a deeper understanding of the files that it is saving than a RAMdisk software does. It can properly save files to a temporary location and then copy them over to the correct name to ensure than an interrupted write does not cause corruption.

A RAMdisk software does not know about this. It is simply copying bytes back and forth. Photoshop will THINK that the file has been properly written, when in fact it hasn't. The RAMdisk software is then going to blindly copy that data onto disk.

If it gets interrupted in the middle, poof! Not only is your data corrupt, but the whole filesystem that you put on the RAMdisk could be corrupt.

The point is not that you would lose a little work. The point is that you would corrupt your copy of the file and lose all your work. All of your:

I mean several art programs... all my notes, PDFs, comics, images for references.. books, videos that I need to research and document... many websites and web videos... evernote.. Scrivener... Sketchup....

that you're keeping on the RAMdisk.

 

[LightField]

mfenn, I read that the dataram software was for accessing databases... how is a database different?

 

[Sleepingforest]

Because it's an immense amount of info - files/documents. The way I imagine it is that I would have a too many open documents to make sense of. With the RAMdisk the files are organized... and immediately ready to open as if they were opened already.

Unless there is another way to do this..

How would having the files sorted by program be any worse than having them in a file directory? For example, Windows 7 has my Mozilla windows "stacked" under one icon on the taskbar. When I want to use one, a titled thumbnail pops up.

It makes sense for professionals who do this kind of multi-windowed multitasking for a living.

 

[mfenn]

mfenn, I read that the dataram software was for accessing databases... how is a database different?

Where did you read this? Link? Note, Dataram marketing materials don't count, I want to see real use cases.

A database is about the worst use case for a RAMdisk because even the smallest inconsistency in one of its data files can cause the entire database to be unusable.