GFCI Outlet

[Mide]

So you have power to the GFI but no neutral. Now you need to figure out where the neutral came lose. It should be a dedicated circuit, and if it is the lose neutral should be in the sub panel.

Is there a way to find out which specific neutral goes to my questionable circuit? There is a long neutral bar with many connections going to it. Maybe I should cut the power to the whole house and start tightening?

 

[Greenman]

Is there a way to find out which specific neutral goes to my questionable circuit? There is a long neutral bar with many connections going to it. Maybe I should cut the power to the whole house and start tightening?

That's the easy way. I've seen plenty of neutrals that were never tightened down on the buss.

 

[feralkid]

That's the easy way. I've seen plenty of neutrals that were never tightened down on the bus.

True this.

 

[DrPizza]

Trace the black wire in your panel to where it comes in - that's where the white wire you have to check is.

Based on 3 GFCIs daisy chained together, I'm guessing the electrician wasn't that competent, else you have some really weird code there. But it also leaves the possibility that the first GFCI in the circuit is actually the second outlet in the circuit, and some nearby outlet is the first. I.e., if there's a closet or something that needed power, perhaps a lazy electrician figured, "it's only a 40 watt light that's going to be added to the circuit, what the hell."

Since you were competent enough to check the hot, ground, and neutral in the 3 outlets in the bathroom, before calling in the electrician, you might want to do the same in nearby outlets on walls or lights in closets that are close to the bathroom.

 

[Mide]

Interesting idea DrPizza. Yeah I already tried to tighten all wires going into the neutral bar and that didn't change anything. I tested all light switches and outlets and everything works but some light switches are connected to dual overhead bulbs. Sometimes these bulbs go out and I think I have a few that are indeed not working so I'll see if they stay off with a new bulb.

 

[Greenman]

Interesting idea DrPizza. Yeah I already tried to tighten all wires going into the neutral bar and that didn't change anything. I tested all light switches and outlets and everything works but some light switches are connected to dual overhead bulbs. Sometimes these bulbs go out and I think I have a few that are indeed not working so I'll see if they stay off with a new bulb.

Has to be in a junction box somewhere between the GFIC and the panel. It should be a home run, but apparently it wasn't done that way.

 

[Mide]

Has to be in a junction box somewhere between the GFIC and the panel. It should be a home run, but apparently it wasn't done that way.

Yeah I would think so too. I did end up checking to make sure every single light/outlet worked with the GFCI breaker turned off so there weren't any fishy results there. Yeah out of ideas. I'll definitely report on eventual results after I get an electrician out here.

 

[DrPizza]

Here's a thought for quicker results: with all the other breakers turned on, turn the breaker that's supposed to take care of those bathroom outlets to off. Double-check where you had 120v to make sure you've got the right breaker. Then simply check all the outlets and lights in the house. If you find an outlet that's not working, or a light that's not working, you've found one on the same circuit (provided they were working with the breaker on.)

 

[Mide]

Here's a thought for quicker results: with all the other breakers turned on, turn the breaker that's supposed to take care of those bathroom outlets to off. Double-check where you had 120v to make sure you've got the right breaker. Then simply check all the outlets and lights in the house. If you find an outlet that's not working, or a light that's not working, you've found one on the same circuit (provided they were working with the breaker on.)

Yup indeed I did this exact same test. When the breaker is "on", the multimeter shows up as 120V with the Hot and Ground line on the outlet. Next I go and turn the breaker "off" and the multimeter shows as 0V for everything. So I am playing with the correct breaker.

Now with the breaker off, I have wandered around the house checking all other light switches and power outlets. I can't find anything that doesn't work :-(

 

[DrPizza]

Junction box in the attic directly above the bathroom wall?

 

[Mide]

Junction box in the attic directly above the bathroom wall?

Humm yes the attic I only glanced around a bit since there is only a very small space I can move around in. The rest is covered up in white insulation and I don't think I can walk around everywhere up there. But yeah if the wires go from the circuit breaker to a junction box and then to the outlet, then the junction box could be the problem if one does exist.

 

[bryanl]

I would try that GFCI tester. Could be a bad ground.

GFCIs work even with a bad ground wire. In fact they're required to do so and are the only way to legally have 3 prong outlets that are ungrounded. Also the built-in test does not depend on an external ground connection and merely connects a 15K resistor between line and the GFCI's internal ground.

OP, I would reset every circuit breaker, just in case all the GFCIs glitched from a surge. Also some earlier arc fault circuit breakers made by Siemens were recalled for being prone to false tripping.

 

[Greenman]

GFCIs work even with a bad ground wire. In fact they're required to do so and are the only way to legally have 3 prong outlets that are ungrounded. Also the built-in test does not depend on an external ground connection and merely connects a 15K resistor between line and the GFCI's internal ground.

OP, I would reset every circuit breaker, just in case all the GFCIs glitched from a surge. Also some earlier arc fault circuit breakers made by Siemens were recalled for being prone to false tripping.

He's eliminated that possibility.
The GFIC in question has 120V to the outlet, but no neutral.
It appears to be a dedicated circuit.
The neutral is properly connected at the sub panel.
That means the neutral is disconnected somewhere between the sub panel and the outlet.
Home is 2008 construction, so the GFIC in question should be on a dedicated circuit (it's in a bathroom).

 

[DrPizza]

OP, pounded any nails into the wall (hang a picture or something) in the couple of days before you noticed the problem?

 

[Mide]

Solved by Mr. electrician. So it turns out that in my washer/dryer closet (the type that is double-stacked in a small closet), I can only see a 240V plug, but way underneath it on the same wall, there is a regular 120V outlet and that was the culprit. The contractor used that outlet as the "first" in the chain. The only way for me to have gotten to it was to have moved the washer/dryer fully out so I could see the full wall. Man what a hassle but now it's solved.

 

[feralkid]

I'm happy for you.

I can't believe it was wired that way.

Wait...yes I can.

 

[DrPizza]

I'm getting ready to do the wiring in my new bathroom; just checked the Mike Holt site today to refresh myself on any code I'd need to be careful about (e.g., the "box" 8 feet above and 3 feet from the edge of the tub, for certain types of lights, etc.) Nothing I was planning on doing was remotely close to a code violation; and as usual, I'm exceeding code. (One lighting circuit which may include the ceiling fan, and one other circuit are required. Hell, my wife always has 2 blow dryers plugged in while she's using the hair dryer... 2 circuits, imho.

Anyway, there was a picture very clearly labeled "Violation" There was one outlet on the circuit that wasn't in the bathroom.

 

[Mide]

Yeah fail indeed. The electrician said he had seen this type of setup before so he kinda had a feeling of where to look. He shook his head saying that the contractor who built the house kinda sucked. lol. Well thank you everyone for assisting. In the end it was as predicted...not the first outlet in the chain and that outlet was totally not in normal reach.

 

[boomerang]

Thanks for letting everyone know how it worked out. Too many times we're all left hanging.

 

[DrPizza]

Thanks for letting everyone know how it worked out. Too many times we're all left hanging.

:thumbsup:
It's nice that sometimes the replies are a learning opportunity for everyone.

 

[natto fire]

Yeah fail indeed. The electrician said he had seen this type of setup before so he kinda had a feeling of where to look. He shook his head saying that the contractor who built the house kinda sucked. lol. Well thank you everyone for assisting. In the end it was as predicted...not the first outlet in the chain and that outlet was totally not in normal reach.

Glad you got it all figured out. I have been wiring lots of places lately where the builder is psychotic about cutting costs and we have had to take shortcuts to meet the design specs and still come in at bid price. That said, I always try to wire places up to make some sense, and allow for future additions, even if it is a crappy tract home.

I am just an apprentice, but so many times I have been inclined to overbuild things, and immediately got shot down because it is not in the budget to have an extra circuit. My point is that you can vilify the EC all you want, but more than likely they had a GC busting their balls .

It is the classic you get what you pay for, and now that wages for burger flippers are approaching tradesmen, I wouldn't hold my breath for these practices to change any time soon.

 

[Mide]

My point is that you can vilify the EC all you want, but more than likely they had a GC busting their balls.

Agreed to a certain extent. The house was built towards the end of the bubble so yeah there were indeed cost cutting going on, but I forgot to mention that they didn't even bother to twist 2 wires together before connecting them into a wire nut. This was found on all 4 outlets tested; that's not cost cutting, it's pure laziness.