GM debates how big is too big; Re: 13.5 liter V16

[NFS4]

look at any review of a real porsche (no boxsters or 944s).....bottom line: damn, too bad it costs too much

Says who?? If anything, the Boxster is more in keeping with the original Porsche racing spirit than even the 911. The Boxster was designed to harken back to the 550 Spyder (the one James Dean died in). RWD, mid-engined with a 50/50 weight distribution.

And also remember that the current 911 is built off the Boxster platform...not the other way around. From the dash forward, the 911 (at least the Carrera 2 models) are all Boxster (minus the revised facias for '02). I think some people don't give the Boxster enough credit.

 

[SSP]

look at ny review of any viper....bottom line: great engine, goes fast, interior quality not on par with MOST vehicles, funny lookin

BS! Viper looks f*ing awesome! Now if you say a 911 looks funny, then I'd agree with you.

 

[drogue]

umm, forgive me for pointing out that the 911 is older, and it IS the other way around. the boxster is built on a 911 frame, thats about the only thing it mechanically shares with the 911....why do you think one costs 35-45k, and the other ranges from 80k-180k???

edit: i realize cost isnt a determining factor is the mechnaical heritage area, but the boxster simply doesnt represent porsche,or what they are capable of. i've driven several boxsters, and two S versions at that. they are fun to drive, but the owner's experience is a nightmare. they are truly maintenance headaches, like all the other "poor man's porsches." the idea is fun, but i'd respect porsche more, if they concentrated on their upper end cars like the 911, and the upcoming carrera gt.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: drogue
umm, forgive me for pointing out that the 911 is older, and it IS the other way around. the boxster is built on a 911 frame, thats about the only thing it mechanically shares with the 911....why do you think one costs 35-45k, and the other ranges from 80k-180k???

edit: i realize cost isnt a determining factor is the mechnaical heritage area, but the boxster simply doesnt represent porsche,or what they are capable of. i've driven several boxsters, and two S versions at that. they are fun to drive, but the owner's experience is a nightmare. they are truly maintenance headaches, like all the other "poor man's porsches." the idea is fun, but i'd respect porsche more, if they concentrated on their upper end cars like the 911, and the upcoming carrera gt.

Like I said, the Boxster is designed to represent a modern day 550 Spyder which came out BEFORE the 911 was even in the picture. This was back when the 356 was still around. And the 911 is built around Boxster mechanicals. The Boxster concept was first introduced in '93. The first production model was in '97 I believe. At that time it came with a 2.5 liter flat-6 engine. When the Boxster was fresh, the 911 was still riding around on the 993 chassis and using an air-cooled 3.6 liter flat-6.

The CURRENT 996 didn't come until a year later with a larger 3.4 liter version of that same water cooled flat-6 in the Boxster and the same body work from the dash forward and even the same doors. Why do you think that people complained so much about the 911's styling when it first came out?? B/C it looked exactly like the cheaper Boxster which had already been out for almost two years. Porsche changed this for '02 b/c people complained too much about the 911 looking so much like the "cheaper" Boxster.

And the 996 was based on the Boxster chassis to save money on development of the 911...not the other way around. The Boxster was a vehicled that based at a low $39,995 at introduction.

And the Boxster is STILL the best small roadster around. And here's what was said about the 996 when it was first previewed:

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/previews/1997/November/199711_preview_porshe_911carrera.xml?keywords=porsche%20911

Known internally as the 996, this new 911 will arrive in the U.S. next spring as a 98 model. Other than the Carrera moniker, it carries over little from its illustrious predecessor. In fact, it is much more closely related to the new Boxster, sharing that models headlights, doors, hood, and front fenders.

The additional power comes from a bored-and-stroked version of the four-cam, 24-valve, water-cooled flat-six engine that made its debut last year in the Boxster. Its displacement has increased from 2480 to 3387cc. The valves and the ports are upsized accordingly, and as with the Boxster, the timing of the intake camshafts is regulated by the VarioCam system. In addition, the 911 gets a different intake manifold with a crossover pipe connecting the left and right plenum chambers. A valve in this crossover is closed between 2700 and 5100 rpm and open in the rest of the rev range to enhance breathing. As a result, the big engines 296 hp at 6800 rpm works out to eight percent more power per liter than the Boxster versions 201 hp at 6000 rpm.

Underneath, the 996s front suspension is very similar to the strut arrangement on the Boxsterit uses gas shocks, coil springs, two-piece lower control arms, and an anti-roll bar. In the rear, however, the 996 is fitted with a multilink setup that is different from both the 993s and Boxsters strut designs. At both ends, most of the suspension pieces are fabricated from aluminum to save weight.

Mind you, this experiment took place at a cornering speed that would have occupants of the car hanging from their seat-belts or plastered against a door. Standard equipment on the new model are large, sticky 17-inch tires that feel very grippy. Their traction is fully exploited by larger versions of the Boxsters aluminum one-piece calipers that squeeze large-diameter cross-drilled brake rotors. As on previous 911 variants, these brakes feel powerful, consistent, and immensely reassuring.

For now, there is only a rear-drive Carrera coupe. But cabriolet prototypes are already running around, and Carrera 4s, Targas, and Turbos cant be far behind. Pricing hasnt been announced, but we expect no major increases over the $67,000 sticker of a current Carrera, thanks to the economies realized by sharing so many components with the Boxster.

http://www.motortrend.com/aug01/carrera/1.html

Still, several editors felt the interior style and trimmings were not up to what's expected of a $75,000 car. Perhaps it's that so much of what's inside is shared with the far less expensive Boxster, which hit the market first, somehow making the Carrera look downscale in the process. Porsche reportedly is working on an upgraded dash and cabin, so we must not be the only ones who feel this way.

Fighting for the keys began immediately. No matter how anyone felt about the Carrera's new look, longer wheelbase, or upmarket luxury feature content, there's little griping when it comes to the high level of pure driving enjoyment received in return. We were instantly and particularly smitten with the all-new engine, the architecture of which is, of course, shared with the Boxster. In 3.4L Carrera form, it's good for nearly 300 horsepower.

As the miles began to stack up, the comments came pouring in. "It's the right size for a sports car" notes Senior Road Test Editor Chris Walton. "It has the right amount of power, stellar brakes, impeccable handling, the best/most comfortable OEM seats I've ever sat on." Adds Editor-in-Chief C. Van Tune: "The more I see the new 911, the more I like its looks (except for that Boxster-ish nose and dashboard). And the more I drive the new 911, the more I love its performance, handling, and great engine feel and sound. Second gear is the place to experience the long, strong pull of its ultra-wide powerband-it's good to 74 mph!" Porsche's VarioCam variable valve timing system helps the engine deliver lots of torque, all across the tach. It won't thump your behind like a Corvette, but really pulls well from most any rpm level in most any gear.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Millenium
911 Turbo is not the end of all of cars. Sorry. Really nice care but for that much money I would rather have the Viper. Actually I am content right now with what I have. Not scared of a 911 Turbo at all.

Maybe its not the end of all cars but its the fastest stock volume production car. At least no other has beaten it around the Nürburgring Nordschleife - uuum wait wrong I think the GT2 or 3 was a tad faster... Besides, after a year or two the Porsche might even be the cheaper one if u consider gas costs and taxes for an 8l beast (to fill the 80 litr tank would cost already $160 and this thing is empty again after like 400km if u avoid going to town - then after less than 300 km - so just to visit my parent would run in a some $ 600 but hey I would be fast - on the other hand for that price I fly first class - faster)

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: Millenium
911 Turbo is not the end of all of cars. Sorry. Really nice care but for that much money I would rather have the Viper. Actually I am content right now with what I have. Not scared of a 911 Turbo at all.

Maybe its not the end of all cars but its the fastest stock volume production car. At least no other has beaten it around the Nürburgring Nordschleife - uuum wait wrong I think the GT2 or 3 was a tad faster... Besides, after a year or two the Porsche might even be the cheaper one if u consider gas costs and taxes for an 8l beast (to fill the 80 litr tank would cost already $160 and this thing is empty again after like 400km if u avoid going to town - then after less than 300 km - so just to visit my parent would run in a some $ 600 but hey I would be fast - on the other hand for that price I fly first class - faster)

What is even more interesting is that Porsche is building a Turbo Cabriolet I'd still rather have a 360 Spider though...

 

[CraigRT]

Kinda like the 8 liter viper, which cant even beat a 3.6 liter 911 turbo...

DON'T EVEN go there...

Viper = heavier
Viper = rear wheel drive
Viper = NA aspiration

all cons, compared to the Porsche. if you twin turbo'd an 8L V10 (Hennessey Venom 800 comes to mind) you are looking at an all out Porsche smackdown. besides... what do you mean the Viper cant beat a 911 turbo? it has equal acceleration (RWD vs AWD - unfair) but still remains even, and has a higher top speed.. Henessey Venom 800 twin turbo has 833 HP and 902 ft lbs of torque.. so just forget you mocked the Viper... it's a mean-ass car.

 

[drogue]

ok, so if henessey modified a porsche like they did a viper......i'm pretty sure the "henessey 911" would smoke a venom 800tt. as it is....the RUF 911 Gt2 is a much nicer car than the bloated viper/venom

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: drogue
ok, so if henessey modified a porsche like they did a viper......i'm pretty sure the "henessey 911" would smoke a venom 800tt. as it is....the RUF 911 Gt2 is a much nicer car than the bloated viper/venom

What makes a Viper bloated??? If anything, it's stripped. Until recently, it didn't even have ABS. The '03 Viper SRT-10 is a no-frills sports car, while the 911 Turbo is backed up by enough gizmos and electronics to drive a pimple faced clerk at Circuit City crazy.

For you to downplay the Viper simply b/c it takes a different approach than the 911 Turbo is downright foolish. I think that the 500 HP and 500 lb-ft of torque in a package that weighs 3350 lbs speaks for itself. The Viper is a hard-nosed performance machine. The 911 Turbo is a civilized super car with a bit of novocaine injected in. Minus the 911 GT2, the 996 Turbo isn't as awe inspiring as the old 993 Turbo or 993 Turbo S.

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: drogue
ok, so if henessey modified a porsche like they did a viper......i'm pretty sure the "henessey 911" would smoke a venom 800tt. as it is....the RUF 911 Gt2 is a much nicer car than the bloated viper/venom

What makes a Viper bloated??? If anything, it's stripped. Until recently, it didn't even have ABS. The '03 Viper SRT-10 is a no-frills sports car, while the 911 Turbo is backed up by enough gizmos and electronics to drive a pimple faced clerk at Circuit City crazy.

For you to downplay the Viper simply b/c it takes a different approach than the 911 Turbo is downright foolish. I think that the 500 HP and 500 lb-ft of torque in a package that weighs 3350 lbs speaks for itself. The Viper is a hard-nosed performance machine. The 911 Turbo is a civilized super car with a bit of novocaine injected in. Minus the 911 GT2, the 996 Turbo isn't as awe inspiring as the old 993 Turbo or 993 Turbo S.

Well put.

This is almost like an import vs. domestic arguement all over again... /me sighs

 

[CocaCola5]

The Viper would costs 150-200K if it were built well(with a proper V10 and all). I think Dodge should have gone all the way, the earlier Vipers were the best of the bunch but they had a sh!tty interior and the engine still growled like a Ram truck.

 

[bigben]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: drogue
ok, so if henessey modified a porsche like they did a viper......i'm pretty sure the "henessey 911" would smoke a venom 800tt. as it is....the RUF 911 Gt2 is a much nicer car than the bloated viper/venom

What makes a Viper bloated??? If anything, it's stripped. Until recently, it didn't even have ABS. The '03 Viper SRT-10 is a no-frills sports car, while the 911 Turbo is backed up by enough gizmos and electronics to drive a pimple faced clerk at Circuit City crazy.

For you to downplay the Viper simply b/c it takes a different approach than the 911 Turbo is downright foolish. I think that the 500 HP and 500 lb-ft of torque in a package that weighs 3350 lbs speaks for itself. The Viper is a hard-nosed performance machine. The 911 Turbo is a civilized super car with a bit of novocaine injected in. Minus the 911 GT2, the 996 Turbo isn't as awe inspiring as the old 993 Turbo or 993 Turbo S.

Although the Turbo Cabs should be quite something.......head tearing speeds on a beautiful summer day. That is pure automobile excitement

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: bigben

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: drogue
ok, so if henessey modified a porsche like they did a viper......i'm pretty sure the "henessey 911" would smoke a venom 800tt. as it is....the RUF 911 Gt2 is a much nicer car than the bloated viper/venom

What makes a Viper bloated??? If anything, it's stripped. Until recently, it didn't even have ABS. The '03 Viper SRT-10 is a no-frills sports car, while the 911 Turbo is backed up by enough gizmos and electronics to drive a pimple faced clerk at Circuit City crazy.

For you to downplay the Viper simply b/c it takes a different approach than the 911 Turbo is downright foolish. I think that the 500 HP and 500 lb-ft of torque in a package that weighs 3350 lbs speaks for itself. The Viper is a hard-nosed performance machine. The 911 Turbo is a civilized super car with a bit of novocaine injected in. Minus the 911 GT2, the 996 Turbo isn't as awe inspiring as the old 993 Turbo or 993 Turbo S.

Although the Turbo Cabs should be quite something.......head tearing speeds on a beautiful summer day. That is pure automobile excitement

That's what the 360 Modena and BMW Z8 are for. I think those vehicles look better as drop tops. For some reason, a Turbo Cab just seems in my mind like it will look hideous.

 

[Magicthyse]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
doesn't hennesey viper just blow the doors off 911 turbo?
I don't get it 13.5 is 2 northstar v8's? so each northstar is 6.75 liters?
I thought they were about 5 liters.
Anyways, this seems like an overkill and probably handling will be horrible with all that weight in the front.

Perhaps they can put one in the front and one in the back

 

[drogue]

nfs4, is there anything anyone can say that you wont criticize? no wonder you have so many posts, you spend all your time babbling about how you are th eonly person with the right answers

when i say the viper is bloated, i mean spatially. the car is HUGE...which oh by the way, is the same reason i dont like the 360 modenas. perhaps its not as tall as an SUV, but the length and width are ridiculously out of proportion with its height. the bulging fender wells are another design characteristic that make it look bloated. i prefer cars that appear to be in proportion....porsche designs such cars or the ferrari 550 maranello, while it may be long, its not as wide, and the hood doesnt look like it needs to take some pepto bismol.

let me restate that for you: I DONT LIKE THE WAY THE VIPER LOOKS - I THINK IT LOOKS RETARDED

i mentioned nothing in here about mechanics. although, you know you're right. i am biased against muscle cars. muscle cars are about brute force, i dont give a crap about brute power. there is a very good saying you should keep in mind here: power is powerless when not used powerfully. in cars you can take this to mean a couple things: a) driver must be able to drive the car, b) power is useless if you can control it, or c) drive the living hell outta your car. i prefer b, i prefer finesse, style, elegance, and grace over brute power. so there...i've said it...i'm biased against muscle cars - i think they blow nuts and are made for people that need the power to overcome inabilities in driving.

let me repeat: this is my f'ing opinion, i'm tired of being flamed for my OPINION - ironic that i'm being flamed for my opinion, by nfs4.....real nice sig you got there

edit: spelling

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: drogue
nfs4, is there anything anyone can say that you wont criticize? no wonder you have so many posts, you spend all your time babbling about how you are th eonly person with the right answers

when i say the viper is bloated, i mean spatially. the car is HUGE...which oh by the way, is the same reason i dont like the 360 modenas. perhaps its not as tall as an SUV, but the length and width are ridiculously out of proportion with its height. the bulging fender wells are another design characteristic that make it look bloated. i prefer cars that appear to be in proportion....porsche designs such cars or the ferrari 550 maranello, while it may be long, its not as wide, and the hood doesnt look like it needs to take some pepto bismol.

let me restate that for you: I DONT LIKE THE WAY THE VIPER LOOKS - I THINK IT LOOKS RETARDED

i mentioned nothing in here about mechanics. although, you know you're right. i am biased against muscle cars. muscle cars are about brute force, i dont give a crap about brute power. there is a very good saying you should keep in mind here: power is powerless when not used powerfully. in cars you can take this to mean a couple things: a) driver must be able to drive the car, b) power is useless if you can control it, or c) drive the living hell outta your car. i prefer b, i prefer finesse, style, elegance, and grace over brute power. so there...i've said it...i'm biased against muscle cars - i think they blow nuts and are made for people that need the power to overcome inabilities in driving.

let me repeat: this is my f'ing opinion, i'm tired of being flamed for my OPINION - ironic that i'm being flamed for my opinion, by nfs4.....real nice sig you got there

edit: spelling

You can make your opinion all you want and no one will give a poo. So you like Porsche over Viper - no big deal. I just don't understand what this "grace and finesse" is that the Porsche apparently has but the Viper lacks. All I can figure that it means is handling. If this is true, then you really need to do more reading because a Viper GTS ACR hangs right with a Porsche 911 Turbo on road coarses, slalom, skidpad, etc.

So explain - what is this "grace and finesse"?

And how is the Viper's 500hp brute force but the Porsche's 415hp isn't? Doesn't make much sense to me...

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: drogue

now then: we should all know by now that some cars mentioned here simply arent sports cars: mustangs, camaros, and firebirds aren't sportscars.....they are cheap little cars with big, loud, poorly designed engines made for ppl that want to look cool. and for that matter, all three of 'em are ugly

the cheapest true sports car i can think of is perhaps a celica gt-s, mr2, 300zx/350z, rx7/rx8, s2000, then to boxsters, 'vettes, boxster s, viper, 911s, and on up if you want to be really nice, a prelude type sh doesnt suck either.

what i'm trying to get at is that refinement has everything to do with be a sports car...its not just about 0-60s (which,oh by the way, are meaningless...look at 0-100 and 0-150 for real measurements) 1/4 mi or slalom times. performance is one aspect, but it has to be able to handle well too, and the driver needs to actually be able to drive it.

WOW. You really have no idea what a sports car is.

A Celica and Prelude are "sports" cars but the F-Bodies aren't? Look at the stats. An F-Body will rape either of those cars in any category. But I guess they still don't count because they have "brute force" power and aren't "refined"

Why not drop the charade, eh? We can all see the kind of person that you are. You're someone who loves foreign cars and thinks that anything American is old-tech junk. You're blind to any facts that don't go in your favorThis is all well and dandy, but don't try to spread the ignorance.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: drogue
nfs4, is there anything anyone can say that you wont criticize? no wonder you have so many posts, you spend all your time babbling about how you are th eonly person with the right answers

when i say the viper is bloated, i mean spatially. the car is HUGE...which oh by the way, is the same reason i dont like the 360 modenas. perhaps its not as tall as an SUV, but the length and width are ridiculously out of proportion with its height. the bulging fender wells are another design characteristic that make it look bloated. i prefer cars that appear to be in proportion....porsche designs such cars or the ferrari 550 maranello, while it may be long, its not as wide, and the hood doesnt look like it needs to take some pepto bismol.

let me restate that for you: I DONT LIKE THE WAY THE VIPER LOOKS - I THINK IT LOOKS RETARDED

i mentioned nothing in here about mechanics. although, you know you're right. i am biased against muscle cars. muscle cars are about brute force, i dont give a crap about brute power. there is a very good saying you should keep in mind here: power is powerless when not used powerfully. in cars you can take this to mean a couple things: a) driver must be able to drive the car, b) power is useless if you can control it, or c) drive the living hell outta your car. i prefer b, i prefer finesse, style, elegance, and grace over brute power. so there...i've said it...i'm biased against muscle cars - i think they blow nuts and are made for people that need the power to overcome inabilities in driving.

let me repeat: this is my f'ing opinion, i'm tired of being flamed for my OPINION - ironic that i'm being flamed for my opinion, by nfs4.....real nice sig you got there

edit: spelling

There's a difference between actually having an opinion on a car and not actually giving a vehicle credit for what it was made to do. The Viper GTS / RT-10 / SRT-10 were never made to be a machine with the finess of the 911...not many American vehicles are known for finesse.

I personally think that the Vipers have pretty cheesy interiors and the new SRT-10 isn't as good looking as the old GTS coupe...BUT, that still does not diminish the awesome performance of the car and the target audience that Dodge has for the car.

 

[silverpig]

to fill the 80 litr tank would cost already $160

Where the heck are you that you're paying $2/litre???

Here, gas prices for premium (94 octane) are about 85 cents/litre cdn...

 

[CocaCola5]

If it was up to me I would give the Viper a eight liter ram-air V8.

 

[TuffGuy]

Some specs: Viper GTS vs 911 Turbo

 

[Alphacowboy]

Originally posted by: drogue
when i say the viper is bloated, i mean spatially. the car is HUGE...

OK.... ('02 Viper vrs '02 911)
Exterior Dimensions & Weight
Curb Weight V=3479/NA P=3395/3495 --- Not much different eh?
Wheelbase (Fr/Rr) V=96.2 P=92.5 --- oooo 4.3" that soooo much longer... lol
Length V=176.7 P=174.6 --- again, 2.1" thats sooo much bigger isnt it!
Width V=75.7 P=72 --- if you knew anything about cars and handling you would know that width is better!
Height V=47 P=51 --- look at that, its SHORTER than the 911! As you can see, the viper is not all that much bigger, and I think the '03 model is even a little smaller!

Engine Specs.... Type V=8.0L V10 P=3.6L H6
Displacement (cc/ci) V=7990/488 P=3600/220 --- wow, big difference... Id love to see this poor 6cly without the turbo!
Valves V=20 P=24
Horsepower V=450@5200 P=415@6000 --- who said the viper is weak?
Torque V=490@3700 P=415@2700 --- this number is more important than most people think!
Fuel System V=SEFI P=SEFI --- no difference
Fuel Economy (City/Hwy) V=21 P=15/22 --- Hmmm... 8L V10 getting the same as a 3.6L H6... and who says the V10 is a Gas hog? LOL to think if Dodge only used 6 Cylinders!

Nothing compares to Detroit Iron... I do like imports, but nothing beats the looks and styling of a domestic... I think the late 70's through the late '80's killed the looks of the domestic vehicles... but thank God they are back on track... well in ways... with exceptions to GM, they are really making some fugly looking $hit! Avalanche, Aztec, new 03 chevy pickups... need I go on! But really, what compares to a '68 Shelby GT500, or a '70 Charger, or '69 chevell, '70 Cuda.... the list goes on, those where the $hit, if only they would put those back into the minds of the car designers... sorry but they are the TRUE sports cars if you ask me... USA designed and started auto mobiles... we know what the heck we are doing. Oh, and who ever included the ricer imports from somewhere other than Europe.. sit down and shut the hell up, a prelude is NOT a sports car... my god, everytime I see a Ricer Import with A wing I want to run that punk over with My Truck! what the hell does a wing do on a FRONT WHEEL DRIVE car anyway?!

 

[BL0RT]

Originally posted by: Rallispec
is that large an engine really necessary?

yes cause it makes my pee pee bigger.