GM going all electric by 2035

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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
This thread pretty much supports why Tesla will be the most valuable company in the world by 2035 replacing Apple at the top.

Tesla has the complete solution.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
The time of day issues might be peak load shedding. I know most corporations have a maximum instantaneous power draw allowed during peak hours. I'd think chargers would be smart enough to balance that across the whole station, though.

That's what I assumed it was... well... I didn't know a name for it, but at around 12 PM, most of the surrounding businesses would be in full swing and would likely use more power. I think there was a theater in the same area, and they don't normally open until about 11. Although, the issue is mostly that these stations aren't that numerous, so if the navigation puts you at that station, you have to suffer through until you at least get enough juice to make it to the next one... and hope it works too.
 
Reactions: Zorba

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,717
25,054
136
Heh... When was the last time you asked a landlord to upgrade something in an apartment complex, and actually got them to do it? There is a reason that most of the older apartment complexes still have window unit air conditioners and manual garage doors.

By that logic no land lord would ever remodel a unit. But they do it all the time.
 

Denly

Golden Member
May 14, 2011
1,433
229
106
OR it presents an opportunity to create the necessary infra structure and the jobs associated with that effort. Also if tenants want electric cars and that becomes a factor driving where they rent then land lords will address that need.

Still on page 1, if this covered my bad. Yes it will create job but get electrical related cert in order to work in the field take YEARS and $$$$, this pretty much stopped everyone with family and bills to pay from switching.

PS I am fully support EV.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
You do realize there is going to be an infrastructure issue if they were to do that. The fact is that majority of apartment buildings in the US were built before the shift to electric vehicles started, and thus they do not have outlets at their parking. I can see this as a start to disenfranchising people who live in apartment buildings.

Because there are already gas pumps at every apartment space now?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
You guys should read up on the traffic people and city planners about what causes traffic. It really isn't "volume of cars."

Hell, just think about your daily commute, if you have one, and the rage that fills you every time some jackass causes a hiccup for no reason. ...fucking rubberneckers. RUBBERNECKERS! literally half the expressway problems are due to asshats slowing down to look at crap that isn't even in their way. automated cars of no interest in this nonsense. Hell, here in DC on 495, there's a particular section that has an S turn...very light, very easy turns, but everyone loses their collective shit over this idea that they will have to turn their steering wheels for a second, and slow to a crawl. Every time. There is literally no reason for it.
Yeah, automation can vastly improve throughput, but I think it's benefits as a miracle worker in dense urban areas are exaggerated, though. I'm guessing that NYC still wants people to walk from one side of the street to the other, so bam you have stop lights. I also don't think any city is going to want automated cars doing much more than 30 mph in downtown areas on surface streets.

Highway slowdowns and suburban traffic could be massively improved with automation, but rubbernecking and being afraid of curves aren't major drivers of traffic in downtown areas.
 
Reactions: zinfamous

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
This thread pretty much supports why Tesla will be the most valuable company in the world by 2035 replacing Apple at the top.

Tesla has the complete solution.
Recently, I test drove a Model 3 Performance and an Audi RS3 back-to-back. And was admittedly surprised to find that the Tesla was by far the better bang for the buck. With comparable performance (if not the glorious sound). I've been predicting that eventually EVs would be cheaper to own the ICEs for some time now, I just didn't realize that time was already now.
But there was a problem. And it wasn't the range issue. It was that I actually enjoy driving, and Musk's (admittedly genius) plan to keep his smartphones-on-wheels from depreciating like smartphones is to make them income-producing by having them drive themselves. Which is amazingly visionary. Except that beginning with the 2021 models, you can't turn that shit off. So.. I'm likely going to be holding off for an Audi EV, because those Germans know that some people like to drive themselves occasionally.

On topic: GM's 2035 plan is at least 10 years too late. Waiting that long will make them the Kodak of cars, the guys who could have come to market 20 years before everyone else but instead did so 10 years after everyone else.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
I just gotta wonder if HUR DUR $75k truck drivers are willing to buy electric trucks or will get butt-hurt about it?

Either way, I think US auto manufacturers will fail miserably just like they always do with everything having to do with the very basics of the market.


They hinge entirely on high mark-up of gas-guzzling pickup trucks. They fail miserably at simple cars, SUVS, etc... from competitors.
As soon as they finally figure it out the EVs can easily put 1000+ lb-ft to every wheel on instantaneous demand, they'll be buying em like hotcakes and making fun of their friends with their puny unreliable diesels.
 
Reactions: Zorba

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Still on page 1, if this covered my bad. Yes it will create job but get electrical related cert in order to work in the field take YEARS and $$$$, this pretty much stopped everyone with family and bills to pay from switching.

PS I am fully support EV.
That's where the retraining programs Hillary was talking about come in. Pay to retrain oil field workers to run transmission lines.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,849
13,785
146
Recently, I test drove a Model 3 Performance and an Audi RS3 back-to-back. And was admittedly surprised to find that the Tesla was by far the better bang for the buck. With comparable performance (if not the glorious sound). I've been predicting that eventually EVs would be cheaper to own the ICEs for some time now, I just didn't realize that time was already now.
But there was a problem. And it wasn't the range issue. It was that I actually enjoy driving, and Musk's (admittedly genius) plan to keep his smartphones-on-wheels from depreciating like smartphones is to make them income-producing by having them drive themselves. Which is amazingly visionary. Except that beginning with the 2021 models, you can't turn that shit off. So.. I'm likely going to be holding off for an Audi EV, because those Germans know that some people like to drive themselves occasionally.

On topic: GM's 2035 plan is at least 10 years too late. Waiting that long will make them the Kodak of cars, the guys who could have come to market 20 years before everyone else but instead did so 10 years after everyone else.
Since I’m considering selling my BRZ for a Model 3 I’m curious what you mean you can’t “turn it off”. Are you referring to auto pilot?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Yeah, automation can vastly improve throughput, but I think it's benefits as a miracle worker in dense urban areas are exaggerated, though. I'm guessing that NYC still wants people to walk from one side of the street to the other, so bam you have stop lights. I also don't think any city is going to want automated cars doing much more than 30 mph in downtown areas on surface streets.

Highway slowdowns and suburban traffic could be massively improved with automation, but rubbernecking and being afraid of curves aren't major drivers of traffic in downtown areas.

The biggest traffic problem in downtown areas is gridlockers, people who try to make the light and end up getting stuck in the middle of the intersection, blocking cross-traffic when the light changes. A problem AVs can solve pretty easily. The real problem for AVs in urban centers is pedestrians.

While it's not rubberneckers per se who cause suburban highway traffic problems but the fact anytime one driver slows down, the driver behind them has to slow down just a little bit more. And likewise that driver behind them, and so forth until someone has to come to a stop. A density wave. AV's can mitigate this problem, by more precise speed control to reduce density, but they can't solve it entirely.

In the end though, it's demand that creates traffic. That's why building more lanes doesn't work, because the additional lanes end up encouraging more drivers to take that particular road. Getting traffic to flow smoothly through all available paths is the real solution, and AVs will easily best humans at this.
 
Last edited:

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Since I’m considering selling my BRZ for a Model 3 I’m curious what you mean you can’t “turn it off”. Are you referring to auto pilot?
Yes. That, and the regenerative braking can't be turned off either, except in track mode, so the car never coasts. It's far far worse than traction control that can't be turned off.
And as a BRZ owner, still driving a manual, I'm sure you can appreciate. My own daily is a Mk6 Golf R.
 
Reactions: Paratus

Franz316

Senior member
Sep 12, 2000
978
434
136
I have a Kia Niro Hybrid right now and get around 54mpg, I think my next car will be fully electric so I look forward to their continued development! This is a big step for GM and the industry in general.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
The biggest traffic problem in downtown areas is gridlockers, people who try to make the light and end up getting stuck in the middle of the intersection, blocking cross-traffic when the light changes. A problem AVs can solve pretty easily. The real problem for AVs in urban centers is pedestrians.

While it's not rubberneckers per se who cause suburban highway traffic problems but the fact anytime one driver slows down, the driver behind them has to slow down just a little bit more. And likewise that driver behind them, and so forth until someone has to come to a stop. A density wave. AV's can mitigate this problem, by more precise speed control to reduce density, but they can't solve it entirely.

In the end though, it's demand that creates traffic. That's why building more lanes doesn't work, because the additional lanes end up encouraging more drivers to take that particular road. Getting traffic to flow smoothly through all available paths is the real solution, and AVs will easily best humans at this.
Gridlocking is definitely an issue. I don't know that I buy that is the biggest driver of traffic in urban areas. Stopping for pedestrians and then the lag time from accelerating back up to speed, which is also a density wave because people can't start going until the car in front of them starts going. There are also studies that show larger cars accelerate much slower through intersections and have larger gapping, even when the vehicle performs the same as a sedan, people just drive them more cautiously.

AV will massively help with traffic problems, but it will not make the existing infrastructure have infinite capacity and I believe those benefits will likely drop way off in tight urban areas with pedestrians, drop-off/pick ups, and intersections.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,849
13,785
146
Yes. That, and the regenerative braking can't be turned off either, except in track mode, so the car never coasts. It's far far worse than traction control that can't be turned off.
And as a BRZ owner, still driving a manual, I'm sure you can appreciate. My own daily is a Mk6 Golf R.

I love driving the BRZ. Handles like a go-cart. The buttons to disable traction control and stability control are right beside the shifter. I will definitely miss the driving experience.

However I bought it used and had to replace the clutch and later get the transmission rebuilt (to many launches by the previous owner). It then had a recall where subaru had to rebuild the engine. So it unfortunately hasn’t been very reliable. Plus I have two teenagers who need to drive and only one car less than 6 years old. So I’ve gotten to a place where I probably need a new car that’s under warranty again.

I want to get a BEV for obvious environmental reason and the engineer in me loves the tech and even the regenerative breaking (our school solar racing team was doing that back in the 90’s), but the driver in me will probably be disappointed.
 

Denly

Golden Member
May 14, 2011
1,433
229
106
Yes. That, and the regenerative braking can't be turned off either, except in track mode, so the car never coasts. It's far far worse than traction control that can't be turned off.
And as a BRZ owner, still driving a manual, I'm sure you can appreciate. My own daily is a Mk6 Golf R.

Manual is about the only thing that keep me from driving a EV or plug-in.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
But there was a problem. And it wasn't the range issue. It was that I actually enjoy driving, and Musk's (admittedly genius) plan to keep his smartphones-on-wheels from depreciating like smartphones is to make them income-producing by having them drive themselves. Which is amazingly visionary. Except that beginning with the 2021 models, you can't turn that shit off. So.. I'm likely going to be holding off for an Audi EV, because those Germans know that some people like to drive themselves occasionally.

Honestly, I wish I hadn't gotten Enhanced AutoPilot on my Model 3, because it means you cannot turn off traffic-assist on your cruise control. I just prefer going the same speed, which I find a bit harder to do in the "glass-like" feel of driving a Tesla. Tesla's Navigate on AutoPilot does offer the option to automatically pass people (it requires you to be navigating to some destination), but ugh.. it's not that great. It just takes too long to make a decision to finally pass, and after it has passed, it takes far too long to move back over. (Note that mine is on the speediest of passing settings: Mad Max.)

But I think the worst aspect of owning a Tesla is having to deal with the whims of Tesla... and also how cheap the car feels sometimes. With all the rattles, squeaks, and poor sound isolation, I feel like I paid a BMW price for Versa quality. My friend who owns a Model X recently bought a Ford Fusion to alleviate the range anxiety, and he told me that if he had to keep just one, he'd keep the Fusion. Probably not the most ringing endorsement.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,885
34,850
136
But I think the worst aspect of owning a Tesla is having to deal with the whims of Tesla... and also how cheap the car feels sometimes. With all the rattles, squeaks, and poor sound isolation, I feel like I paid a BMW price for Versa quality. My friend who owns a Model X recently bought a Ford Fusion to alleviate the range anxiety, and he told me that if he had to keep just one, he'd keep the Fusion. Probably not the most ringing endorsement.

A big reason we're getting a Tesla is the supercharging network. The Mach E is tempting but the CCS fast charge network sucks still although it is slowly improving. We're a two car house and husband will be getting the Model 3 while I keep my i3. If BMW sold a 330e with a 50-60 mile electric range I'd probably be in that but alas.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,821
29,574
146
The biggest traffic problem in downtown areas is gridlockers, people who try to make the light and end up getting stuck in the middle of the intersection, blocking cross-traffic when the light changes. A problem AVs can solve pretty easily. The real problem for AVs in urban centers is pedestrians.

While it's not rubberneckers per se who cause suburban highway traffic problems but the fact anytime one driver slows down, the driver behind them has to slow down just a little bit more. And likewise that driver behind them, and so forth until someone has to come to a stop. A density wave. AV's can mitigate this problem, by more precise speed control to reduce density, but they can't solve it entirely.

In the end though, it's demand that creates traffic. That's why building more lanes doesn't work, because the additional lanes end up encouraging more drivers to take that particular road. Getting traffic to flow smoothly through all available paths is the real solution, and AVs will easily best humans at this.

pedestrian issues can be solved with overhead/underground crosses. It's not like that is difficult to deal with, and yes, reducing driving lanes is also *a good idea* if you are going to limit urban road traffic to AVs. automatons that actually obey order and communicate in real time regarding all ongoing situations would eliminate the need for all that asphalt--you can convert those lanes to bus/tram lanes and bicycle traffic.

and as Zorba says, yeah, restricting speeds to 30mph is likely, and also completely reasonable. It's not like that isn't already the default speed in these areas, anyway, because you can't realistically drive much faster than that in dense areas. and, these cars would almost certainly be faster from point to point at 30mph in an all-AV system compared to the current system where humans are allowed to drive up to 45mph in certain areas--you aren't dealing with humans constantly intentionally causing gridlock at every fricking intersection.

a lot of traffic lights and intersection stops could be eliminated if you start routing pedestrians over and under the robot cars.

Another thing I wanted to mention: when considering the current infrastructure for vehicular traffic and what we currently think is the gold standard for improvement: more cars means we need more lanes! the end! --you have to understand that this strategy is completely designed around humans driving cars. We have decades and decades of data that has fed this paradigm, and it isn't exactly wrong. But when imagining a completely different paradigm, where human behavior is removed from the equation, you have to completely alter your thinking. Essentially everything that has been established through the last century of human mobility is essentially irrelevant in this new system. Those standard arguments simply do not apply when you remove the most toxic variable from the system. It's difficult, but you literally have to tell your brain to stfu and tackle this problem from a completely foreign angle.
 
Last edited:
Dec 10, 2005
24,457
7,393
136
pedestrian issues can be solved with overhead/underground crosses.
You mean, by inconveniencing the most vulnerable road users, who are often already horribly underserved by our car-centric communities, so as to not inconvenience personal autos.
 
Reactions: Zorba

nOOky

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2004
2,900
1,919
136
You guys should read up on the traffic people and city planners about what causes traffic. It really isn't "volume of cars."

Hell, just think about your daily commute, if you have one, and the rage that fills you every time some jackass causes a hiccup for no reason. ...fucking rubberneckers. RUBBERNECKERS! literally half the expressway problems are due to asshats slowing down to look at crap that isn't even in their way. automated cars of no interest in this nonsense. Hell, here in DC on 495, there's a particular section that has an S turn...very light, very easy turns, but everyone loses their collective shit over this idea that they will have to turn their steering wheels for a second, and slow to a crawl. Every time. There is literally no reason for it.

As a bicyclist, you should hear the horror when a vehicle has to slow down a bit to pass you, or wait a few seconds so they don't hit you. I mean the driver of that truck has to FUCKING GET TO WORK and some moron on a bike is impeding their ability.
 
Reactions: zinfamous

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
Gridlocking is definitely an issue. I don't know that I buy that is the biggest driver of traffic in urban areas. Stopping for pedestrians and then the lag time from accelerating back up to speed, which is also a density wave because people can't start going until the car in front of them starts going. There are also studies that show larger cars accelerate much slower through intersections and have larger gapping, even when the vehicle performs the same as a sedan, people just drive them more cautiously.

AV will massively help with traffic problems, but it will not make the existing infrastructure have infinite capacity and I believe those benefits will likely drop way off in tight urban areas with pedestrians, drop-off/pick ups, and intersections.
Honestly, I just think urban areas need to prohibit large private vehicles. Have a max weight of 500 lbs for private vehicles, and move towards vehicles like ebikes (including things like enclosed trikes). If you get rid of these 4000 lb vehicles running down the road carrying one person, you could fit a lot more vehicles with no additional infrastructure, vastly increase safety, particularly for cyclists and pedestrians, cut way down on energy, etc.
 
Reactions: Zorba

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
A big reason we're getting a Tesla is the supercharging network. The Mach E is tempting but the CCS fast charge network sucks still although it is slowly improving. We're a two car house and husband will be getting the Model 3 while I keep my i3. If BMW sold a 330e with a 50-60 mile electric range I'd probably be in that but alas.

Tesla definitely has an advantage with their cars. It seems like every time I see a new EV announced, I get a little excited... until I see the range and battery size. For example, the new Mustang Mach-E's highest range model has a battery pack (98.8 kWh) around the size of the Model S (100 kWh) to match the (long range, 75 kWh) Model 3's range. It is worthwhile noting that Tesla doesn't set reserves on their battery packs, but other companies do. The Mach-E mentioned earlier actually only gives you access to 88 kWh.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,821
29,574
146
You mean, by inconveniencing the most vulnerable road users, who are often already horribly underserved by our car-centric communities, so as to not inconvenience personal autos.

...I'm not sure how pedestrian overpasses/underpasses inconveniences pedestrians, or are Minneapolis residents all obnoxiously inconvenienced by having to deal with this awful system just to walk through their city during the winter?

Do mean people with disabilities?
 
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