GM puts Zeta rear wheel drive platform on hold

[mercanucaribe]

So fuel mileage increases mean no RWD car platform, but I don't see them reducing output of full size SUVs. Bob Lutz is full of crap.


If GM offered an alternative besides FWD sedans and giant SUVs, people would buy them.

 

[darkswordsman17]

This has nothing to do with RWD and everything to do with them wanting to stick V8s in everything they can to increase their economies of scale there. While you can't blame them as they do make good V8s (50+ years of solid development goes a long way on that), whereas the "foreign" manufacturers have spend time devoping 4 and 6 cylinder engines, they should not be given extra special car just because their engines aren't competitive.

 

[vailr]

Stanley Meyer "water powered vehicle":
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3333992194168790800
Only exhaust gas is water vapor.

 

[thomsbrain]

hahahahaha... can't build a small car here for a profit?

funny, all the major japanese companies build their small cars in america and sell them for a profit. in fact, they build them here because it is financially advantageous. many are designed here, too. how about "we can't design a good car that people want to buy at a competitive price, so we have to sell them for thousands less, and for some strange reason we can't make any money."

 

[ballmode]

I wanna know how the Japanese and Germans make more HP and similar or better mpg than the american cars.

 

[ajayjuneja]

Originally posted by: ballmode
I wanna know how the Japanese and Germans make more HP and similar or better mpg than the american cars.

Direct Injection
more work on the computer/engine management program
more work on weight reduction
more gears in transmissions

all of those are techniques GM only sometimes decides to use, that the imports tend to use more pervasively.

 

[Captante]

Originally posted by: SVT Cobra

Originally posted by: Captante
I have a very hard time feeling sorry for the American car companies ... the reason they are ultimately so screwed now is decades of poor planning coming home to roost & the continuing fallout is going to have a negative impact on every US citizen.

:disgust:

Sorry you don't like it but that doesn't make it any less true ... I understand American cars are vastly improved in build quality but the damage to the big 3's reputation is already done & by poor planning I'm not just talking about vehicle design but referring to the entire picture.

 

[sandorski]

Lutz is a putz. Not the first time he came with this whine.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: Captante
I have a very hard time feeling sorry for the American car companies ... the reason they are ultimately so screwed now is decades of poor planning coming home to roost & the continuing fallout is going to have a negative impact on every US citizen.

Exactly. Their obsession with SUV's and Trucks for the past 10 years is finally coming back to haunt them. It's almost like they forgot how to build sedans that people want to buy!

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: ajayjuneja

Originally posted by: ballmode
I wanna know how the Japanese and Germans make more HP and similar or better mpg than the american cars.

Direct Injection
more work on the computer/engine management program
more work on weight reduction
more gears in transmissions

all of those are techniques GM only sometimes decides to use, that the imports tend to use more pervasively.

Wow - you guys are clearly clueless. Maybe you should actually take a look at the gas mileage that GM cars get - you obviously have never done it before. They're very competitive in this category.

 

[SampSon]

What are these legacy expenses you are talking about? Stop paying on all the pensions?

Pensions and health care costs. GM has the largest health care bill of any single American based company. None of this is news though, we have all discussed it on here and just about every economic analyst in the country has written a piece on GMs consistant decline. So I'm not going to sit here and type out all the bulletpoints that you and everyone else undoubtedly knows about. GM is in deep doo-doo and their business model focuses on the wrong economic principles. Sure they have a lot of cash and liquidity, but they can burn through that in a few years, easily.

So there is no easy answer, it's a catch-22. GM has to become a smaller more streamlined company or it will fail. So that requires cutting workforce and revamping the entire business model, from current production to legacy pension costs. No one wants to see hard working people get put out of work, nor do we want to see pensioners get cut off from the benefits they were promised. The reality is that GM and the unions made some bad decisions in the highflying markets of the 90s, but something has to give.

You're right the domestic car companies shouldn't have planned making cars that people wanted they should have planned that the government would come in and with the wave of their hand change the type of cars that they can sell.

Tomorrow the government is going to decide that high powered computers are unnecessary and limit all computers to 1 Ghz and there is no need for people to have energy wasting home theaters. All TVs will be limited to a max of 27"

I'll bet those two industries are ready for that.

The government isn't telling them what type of cars they can manufacture and sell. They are telling them that if they don't meet fuel economy standards they will be penalized monetarily. It's not as if these standards only apply to GM, they apply to all car manufacturers. Now if GM is making the cars people "want", why are their sales dropping off a cliff? Why are they not completely dominating the retail consumer market by huge margins? The answer is because people must not want GM's vehicles that bad, right?

Now, as I said earlier in this thread, if a consumer knows what they want then they are going to pay to get it. These CAFE standards arn't going to magically change the tastes of the American consumer, suggesting that they will overnight is kind of silly. A prime example is the exponential increase in the costs of gas, yet Americans still buy plenty of trucks and SUVs.
Lutz is doing nothing but whining, spewing rhetoric, and trying to blame everyone but the company he chairs. As if we shouldn't expect this from the guy who brought us the Dodge Viper, Plymouth Prowler, was involved with the Cunningham supercar project, pushed hard to bring the Monaro (GTO) to the states, and was involved with the Cadillac sixteen. Mabey he should talk to his brother about economics, it might help him help GM.

As for your apples to oranges statement about computers, HT systems, TV sizes and other random consmuer goods, do you really want to go there? It really doesn't make sense, unless you're trying to make some comparison between government energy policies and communism. The government isn't saying you can't make or have these products, they are just saying that we should probably attempt to curb our excessive use of fossil fuels or pay a higher cost/penalty. I can see the argument on both sides of that issue. Though you can't really compare oil/gas to tvs and computers.

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: SampSon
Though you can't really compare oil/gas to tvs and computers.

I'm agreeing with CAFE in general, but tv and computers use power. Isn't most of hte power in the US being produced with oil/coal? Cutting down on TV and computers will cut down on the amount of oil/coal produced.

I like how CAFE did it. You can build all the gas guzzlers you want, but you better make enough money off of them to offset the fines.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: SampSon
Though you can't really compare oil/gas to tvs and computers.

I'm agreeing with CAFE in general, but tv and computers use power. Isn't most of hte power in the US being produced with oil/coal? Cutting down on TV and computers will cut down on the amount of oil/coal produced.

I like how CAFE did it. You can build all the gas guzzlers you want, but you better make enough money off of them to offset the fines.

coal is ~51% of the US produced power.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: ajayjuneja

Originally posted by: ballmode
I wanna know how the Japanese and Germans make more HP and similar or better mpg than the american cars.

Direct Injection
more work on the computer/engine management program
more work on weight reduction
more gears in transmissions

all of those are techniques GM only sometimes decides to use, that the imports tend to use more pervasively.

Wow - you guys are clearly clueless. Maybe you should actually take a look at the gas mileage that GM cars get - you obviously have never done it before. They're very competitive in this category.

That would be asking too way much. Why research when Consumer Reports decides what we believe?

Seriously though, the only category I see the big 3 lagging in are compacts. Their 4 cylinder engines just aren't efficient enough. Plus they need one good high mileage hybrid like the Volt.

 

[senseamp]

Write to your lawmakers and tell them to stop grandstanding and destroying American automakers by forcing them to make products that consumers don't want and not make products that consumers want.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: SampSon

What are these legacy expenses you are talking about? Stop paying on all the pensions?

Pensions and health care costs. GM has the largest health care bill of any single American based company. None of this is news though, we have all discussed it on here and just about every economic analyst in the country has written a piece on GMs consistant decline. So I'm not going to sit here and type out all the bulletpoints that you and everyone else undoubtedly knows about. GM is in deep doo-doo and their business model focuses on the wrong economic principles. Sure they have a lot of cash and liquidity, but they can burn through that in a few years, easily.

So there is no easy answer, it's a catch-22. GM has to become a smaller more streamlined company or it will fail. So that requires cutting workforce and revamping the entire business model, from current production to legacy pension costs. No one wants to see hard working people get put out of work, nor do we want to see pensioners get cut off from the benefits they were promised. The reality is that GM and the unions made some bad decisions in the highflying markets of the 90s, but something has to give.

You're right the domestic car companies shouldn't have planned making cars that people wanted they should have planned that the government would come in and with the wave of their hand change the type of cars that they can sell.

Tomorrow the government is going to decide that high powered computers are unnecessary and limit all computers to 1 Ghz and there is no need for people to have energy wasting home theaters. All TVs will be limited to a max of 27"

I'll bet those two industries are ready for that.

The government isn't telling them what type of cars they can manufacture and sell. They are telling them that if they don't meet fuel economy standards they will be penalized monetarily. It's not as if these standards only apply to GM, they apply to all car manufacturers. Now if GM is making the cars people "want", why are their sales dropping off a cliff? Why are they not completely dominating the retail consumer market by huge margins? The answer is because people must not want GM's vehicles that bad, right?

Now, as I said earlier in this thread, if a consumer knows what they want then they are going to pay to get it. These CAFE standards arn't going to magically change the tastes of the American consumer, suggesting that they will overnight is kind of silly. A prime example is the exponential increase in the costs of gas, yet Americans still buy plenty of trucks and SUVs.
Lutz is doing nothing but whining, spewing rhetoric, and trying to blame everyone but the company he chairs. As if we shouldn't expect this from the guy who brought us the Dodge Viper, Plymouth Prowler, was involved with the Cunningham supercar project, pushed hard to bring the Monaro (GTO) to the states, and was involved with the Cadillac sixteen. Mabey he should talk to his brother about economics, it might help him help GM.

As for your apples to oranges statement about computers, HT systems, TV sizes and other random consmuer goods, do you really want to go there? It really doesn't make sense, unless you're trying to make some comparison between government energy policies and communism. The government isn't saying you can't make or have these products, they are just saying that we should probably attempt to curb our excessive use of fossil fuels or pay a higher cost/penalty. I can see the argument on both sides of that issue. Though you can't really compare oil/gas to tvs and computers.

I'll be receiving about half my pension from GM. I understand that something has to give, but I would hope that it's not only me that's doing all the giving.

The domestics have focused their attention on trucks and SUVs because they were good at it and they made the most money. Making money is what it is all about. Now the government has decided that we need to stop using fossil fuels at the rate we presently do, but cannot stomach the notion of a fuel tax that would discourage gas guzzlers. So, it did the easy thing and waved its hand and said make cars that use less fuel. Easily said, not so easily done. A tax would probably cost the tax payer as much as the increased cost of cars are going to be without the draconian CAFE mandates. People would naturally gravitate to smaller cars with alternative power-plants (diesel, hybrid, etc.), but would give the domestic automakers the time to realign their product portfolio.

With the domestics just starting to turn the corner and possibly regain market share this could spell the end of the domestic auto industry. So, Lutz is whining. I'd whine too if someone was going to drive another nail in coffin of the manufacturing base of this country and the enemy is our own government.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

They better not can the GTO :|

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124


They better not can the GTO :|

I hate to break this to you but... the GTO/Monaro ended production in 2006. There was also no official plans to reintroduce another GTO.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124


They better not can the GTO :|

I hate to break this to you but... the GTO/Monaro ended production in 2006. There was also no official plans to reintroduce another GTO.

Umm no.

 

[mcvickj]

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124


They better not can the GTO :|

I hate to break this to you but... the GTO/Monaro ended production in 2006. There was also no official plans to reintroduce another GTO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_GTO#2009

"Production of the GTO ended on July 7, 2006, as the manufacturer, Holden, ceased production of the associated Commodore models in preparation for their new VE Commodore platform. At this time there is no 2-door coupe variant of the new Commodore. A new GTO, based on the Zeta platform, shared with the VE Commodore and the 2009 Camaro, is expected in 2009 and may change its name to the classic Firebird."

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: SVT Cobra

Originally posted by: AdamK47

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124


They better not can the GTO :|

I hate to break this to you but... the GTO/Monaro ended production in 2006. There was also no official plans to reintroduce another GTO.

Umm no.

Show me.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Babbles
It seems as if he is saying that it is more difficult to make RWD mileage friendly; why would RWD be more difficult than FWD? I thought RWD was more efficient than the CV joints in a FWD vehicle and as such should have a better gas mileage.

Mass. Specifically rotating mass. The elimination of a RWD vehicle's driveshaft is a big reason for increased economy in a FWD setup.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
So fuel mileage increases mean no RWD car platform, but I don't see them reducing output of full size SUVs. Bob Lutz is full of crap.

SUV's don't count towards CAFE numbers.

ZV

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Good move on GM's part... cancel a platform that probably wouldn't have sold all that well anyway, and then blame it on the environmentalists!

Take THAT, Al Gore!

Whaaa? The Zeta Platform would have done rediculously well.

 

[Ktulu]

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120407

As long as the G8 and Camaro aren't affected, I'm not too concerned.