GM says they will match Japan quality

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: rubenswm

Originally posted by: brtspears2
Whatever happened to personal tastes and personal preferences?

Some people just want an import. Some people want a domestic product. NFS4 keeps defending a Carmy like a fat person and their side of coleslaw.

Actually, all NFS4 is donig is disputing the bullshit information that your assbuddy brought fourth eariler (that american people don't want Japense cars).

All NFS4 is doing is bringing the information forward. I'm failing to see your joke.

All I know is I don't want a Camry or an Accord. Neither did my wife, which is why she drives a Taurus.

All I know is, resale value on a Taurus is so bad that I wouldn't want to be stuck with one after 4-5 years. Personal preference is one thing, but you can't dispute quality or resale value.

 

[rubenswm]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: rubenswm

Originally posted by: brtspears2
Whatever happened to personal tastes and personal preferences?

Some people just want an import. Some people want a domestic product. NFS4 keeps defending a Carmy like a fat person and their side of coleslaw.

Actually, all NFS4 is donig is disputing the bullshit information that your assbuddy brought fourth eariler (that american people don't want Japense cars).

All NFS4 is doing is bringing the information forward. I'm failing to see your joke.

All I know is I don't want a Camry or an Accord. Neither did my wife, which is why she drives a Taurus.

yeah, my first car was an 89 Ford Taurus. Ran pretty well for how old it was.

 

[Ultima]

Maybe if American cars didn't have overboosted steering and pedals I might consider getting one. I don't like how the gas pedal feels stiff and takes away all engine braking, how the brakes come on strong with a little pressure, and how the steering is so overboosted it gives practically no road feel. Sure, I know they build the cars that way so that Joe and Mary can coast down the freeway at 75 while talking on the cell and sipping a latte, but it's not my style of car.
In comparison, my grandma's auto golf has engine braking (the car slows down when you let up on the gas!), the gas pedal has a much more linear response and so does the brake pedel. You actually feel connected to the road with the steering.

 

[SpongeBob]

Maybe if American cars didn't have overboosted steering and pedals I might consider getting one. I don't like how the gas pedal feels stiff and takes away all engine braking, how the brakes come on strong with a little pressure, and how the steering is so overboosted it gives practically no road feel

Gotta love generalizations.

 

[Cfour]

All I know is, resale value on a Taurus is so bad that I wouldn't want to be stuck with one after 4-5 years. Personal preference is one thing, but you can't dispute quality or resale value.

Well man, not everyone buys their cars based upon resale value. As I said before, I don't buy my cars with the intention of selling them. Besides, with their resale being lower, you can pick up a great deal on a used domestic if you can't afford a new.


btw, nobody is "owning" anyone... unless i just fail to see the 'ownage'

Tony

 

[Cfour]

Originally posted by: SpongeBob

Maybe if American cars didn't have overboosted steering and pedals I might consider getting one. I don't like how the gas pedal feels stiff and takes away all engine braking, how the brakes come on strong with a little pressure, and how the steering is so overboosted it gives practically no road feel

Gotta love generalizations.

Roger that

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: rubenswm

Originally posted by: brtspears2
Whatever happened to personal tastes and personal preferences?

Some people just want an import. Some people want a domestic product. NFS4 keeps defending a Carmy like a fat person and their side of coleslaw.

Actually, all NFS4 is donig is disputing the bullshit information that your assbuddy brought fourth eariler (that american people don't want Japense cars).

All NFS4 is doing is bringing the information forward. I'm failing to see your joke.

All I know is I don't want a Camry or an Accord. Neither did my wife, which is why she drives a Taurus.

All I know is, resale value on a Taurus is so bad that I wouldn't want to be stuck with one after 4-5 years. Personal preference is one thing, but you can't dispute quality or resale value.

By the time we sell the car, it's resale value will be negligable. We got it because it had more room and was a better value than the others. What my wife really wanted was a Volvo S40, but that's a whole new price range.

Now my SVT on the other handhas a very good resale value.

 

[Doggiedog]

I and many others here don't doubt that domestic car companies can make fine vehicles. What I really hate is that GM and Ford are purely driven by the almighty buck instead of having a driving passion for making autos.

Look at the Corvette for example. The flagship car of GM, it has fantastic performance but look at the interior. You can probably interchange parts from the interior of the Corvette with a Cavalier or Lumina or Avalanche. Why did GM have to be so damn cheap and not spend a little money to get a unique interior? I don't know about you but if I was in a Corvette, besides the performance factor and the seating position, I'd still feel like I'm sitting in a rental car from AVIS.

With all that money GM has, why can't they spend a little bit of it to spruce up and tighten some interiors? Because they don't have the consumer's best interests at their core. They still have that Big Business attitude where they expect people to buy their products just because they are GM. I guess with mindless drones like Shamu as customers I don't blame them but there is a large and growing group of people who are more worldly about things especially for vehicles they are shelling out big bucks for and have to live with for years.

I will give Lutz credit though. I honestly think he is visibly trying harder to change GM for the better. From going to Australia to get the GTO to admitting the shortcomings of GM autos. Time will tell.

In the meantime, I am a bit jealous of Shamu though. Anyone who thinks a Cavalier interior is the match of Porsche interior must have either smoked something real good or has such a low level of expectations for things that any bone thrown to them will make them happy. Unfortunately, I prefer a good steak dinner to a happy meal.

 

[UNCjigga]

Ford has a new car called the 'Pig'--and it flies.

 

[geno]

You can probably interchange parts from the interior of the Corvette with a Cavalier or Lumina or Avalanche. Why did GM have to be so damn cheap and not spend a little money to get a unique interior?

Because - that's how they keep the car so damn cheap - you can't get any other car with that kind of HP and performance for that price. Name me a car in that price range that can handle with the likes of even fine Italian sports cars. You want a gorgeous interior with plush materials? Then that takes it out of the price range they have dominated. Granted, comfortable doesn't always equal expensive, but this is GM. Besides, it's a friggin Vette, you should be in it to drive fast, it's an enthusiasts car. Don't like the interior? Go drive a slow ass BMW. Otherwise enjoy the car for what it is, not for how comfortable your fingers are when you turn the A/C on.

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: geno

You can probably interchange parts from the interior of the Corvette with a Cavalier or Lumina or Avalanche. Why did GM have to be so damn cheap and not spend a little money to get a unique interior?

Because - that's how they keep the car so damn cheap - you can't get any other car with that kind of HP and performance for that price. Name me a car in that price range that can handle with the likes of even fine Italian sports cars. You want a gorgeous interior with plush materials? Then that takes it out of the price range they have dominated. Granted, comfortable doesn't always equal expensive, but this is GM. Besides, it's a friggin Vette, you should be in it to drive fast, it's an enthusiasts car. Don't like the interior? Go drive a slow ass BMW. Otherwise enjoy the car for what it is, not for how comfortable your fingers are when you turn the A/C on.

If BMW can put out a quality product in a $45k+ M3 that can keep up with a Vette and have a nice interior, why can't GM?

 

[rubenswm]

Originally posted by: Cfour

All I know is, resale value on a Taurus is so bad that I wouldn't want to be stuck with one after 4-5 years. Personal preference is one thing, but you can't dispute quality or resale value.

Well man, not everyone buys their cars based upon resale value. As I said before, I don't buy my cars with the intention of selling them. Besides, with their resale being lower, you can pick up a great deal on a used domestic if you can't afford a new.


btw, nobody is "owning" anyone... unless i just fail to see the 'ownage'

Tony

I can see where you're coming from. The resale value of a car is extremely important for a number of reasons. First and foremost if you want to call your car an asset or investment, woudln't you want that asset/investment to hold the most value possible? Just think if you get in an accident and total your car- your insurance company will not care about what condition your car was in or anything, all they will look at is the year and the value and compensate you based on that. I can see where you are coming from but resale is still important. Besides, what if somethings comes out you really like and want to get rid of your old car? it's not really something you always plan out.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

GM interiors are cheap because their cars sell at a cheap price. They have to skimp on something..and well it might as well be the dashboard surface rather than the transmission! Now this post is about how their interior looks and feels, not how solid it is built (because GM does lack on that front and it should be built solid regardless of price level).

But everyone knows that GM is run by bean-counters rather than designers/engineers/car-enthusiasts. That's why Mr. Bob Lutz is gonna change everything!

One that does irritate me is that GM has done so much research on automotive technologies that you would think they would have the best cars in the market. I have glanced through numerious SAE papers and books (written in the 70s-80s) written by them concerning suspension design, handling, engine design, etc.. and they had all these new ideas back then, it boggles the mind why they don't have products reflecting that!

I guess all that is changing with their new model lines coming out. I'm glad they are taking Cadillac in the frontier of automotive design and innovation.

 

[geno]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog


If BMW can put out a quality product in a $45k+ M3 that can keep up with a Vette and have a nice interior, why can't GM?

No matter what MSRP is, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be hard pressed to find a new M3 for $45k - I've heard the stories of the waiting lists.

The Vette is an enthusiast car, while the M3 is more subdued (in comparison of course), and while the M3 might be able to keep up with a base Vette, the Z06 ruins the competition.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN
GM interiors are cheap because their cars sell at a cheap price. They have to skimp on something..and well it might as well be the dashboard surface rather than the transmission! Now this post is about how their interior looks and feels, not how solid it is built (because GM does lack on that front and it should be built solid regardless of price level).

But everyone knows that GM is run by bean-counters rather than designers/engineers/car-enthusiasts. That's why Mr. Bob Lutz is gonna change everything!

One that does irritate me is that GM has done so much research on automotive technologies that you would think they would have the best cars in the market. I have glanced through numerious SAE papers and books (written in the 70s-80s) written by them concerning suspension design, handling, engine design, etc.. and they had all these new ideas back then, it boggles the mind why they don't have products reflecting that! They have the potential to be one of the best car companies (if not the best) with their massive resources and engineering team. They have made a lot of advancements in the past...I hope they can continue that and make cars to meet the consumer's need..rather than give them what they think they want.

I guess all that is changing with their new model lines coming out. I'm glad they are taking Cadillac in the frontier of automotive design and innovation.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog

Originally posted by: geno

You can probably interchange parts from the interior of the Corvette with a Cavalier or Lumina or Avalanche. Why did GM have to be so damn cheap and not spend a little money to get a unique interior?

Because - that's how they keep the car so damn cheap - you can't get any other car with that kind of HP and performance for that price. Name me a car in that price range that can handle with the likes of even fine Italian sports cars. You want a gorgeous interior with plush materials? Then that takes it out of the price range they have dominated. Granted, comfortable doesn't always equal expensive, but this is GM. Besides, it's a friggin Vette, you should be in it to drive fast, it's an enthusiasts car. Don't like the interior? Go drive a slow ass BMW. Otherwise enjoy the car for what it is, not for how comfortable your fingers are when you turn the A/C on.

If BMW can put out a quality product in a $45k+ M3 that can keep up with a Vette and have a nice interior, why can't GM?

Ditto that, I was just going to say M3. The M3 is hella fast, looks good, can seat 4 people, has a GREAT quality interior, and the interior doesn't feel like you are sitting in a Playschool commercial. Even GM has said that they need to bump up the interior quality on the Corvette to compete:

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=00814961

Hill said Corvette owners in Germany criticized the current Corvette's interior, which uses plastic finishes commonly found in family sedans. Full-sized images of the new car were shown to Corvette owners in Germany.

"While the current Corvette is a huge jump from the car that preceded it, it has frankly not kept up," Hill said. "Others have overtaken it, particularly Audi and Porsche. They have more apparent richness in the interior.

"We are going to leapfrog what we have done, and we're going to have an interior that has more attention to detail, more money devoted to it."

 

[MinorityReport]

GM is world #1 car manufacturer. That is the reason they suck.

Their customer base is already saturated. They could care less if we consumers get an inferior product.

Who are the buyers? Most low / middle class ... the worker force.

GM has been ripping off US consumers since WWII and continues to enjoy this monoploy.

Also check what cars the top GM execs drive. All non GM/US cars. They know what they make ...


I bought a Hummer H2 for $55k last month. I was taking it on a ride through a farmland when the steel underframe came off ...yes completely.

What a shame ....... this 150lb steel underplate was fastened by just 4 bolts and one of those fell or ripped off while driving through soft 3" grass ... just shows what quality control they offer even with with a new product launch.
Also the interior looks like a Louisiana brothel.

Well no more H2. I am getting a G500 Glendenwagen .. it has 3 months waiting list and $20k more but worth it.

 

[Doggiedog]

I need to question why GM has to be cheap with their flagship car. I'm sure rather than limiting their customer base by increasing its price because of a nice interior, it would expand it by making people who normally would consider buying a more expensive car take a look at it.

When I was in the market for a sports car (before I had 2 kids) I would have taken a real good look at the Vette if the interior was a lot nicer. Instead I put money down on the new M3 before I cancelled.

 

[geno]

Also, don't foget that BMW is building the M3 off of an existing car, while the Vette is a ground up process. No matter even what GM says or admits, that interior is one of the reasons that car stays so inexpensive. If they manage to up the quality of the interior, great - just keep that price down.

I need to question why GM has to be cheap with their flagship car.

The vette has a large following and a lot of heritiage, once that car gets too expensive, it falls out of reach of those growing up to want one. There needs to be some continuity of the nameplate.

 

[psteng19]

Originally posted by: geno

Originally posted by: Doggiedog


If BMW can put out a quality product in a $45k+ M3 that can keep up with a Vette and have a nice interior, why can't GM?

No matter what MSRP is, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be hard pressed to find a new M3 for $45k - I've heard the stories of the waiting lists.

The Vette is an enthusiast car, while the M3 is more subdued (in comparison of course), and while the M3 might be able to keep up with a base Vette, the Z06 ruins the competition.

You asked for a comparable car for the money and he named one.
Don't back out on your words now and throw in variables like dealer mark up.

If you want to talk about the Corvette ruining the M3 in terms or performance, then you can talk about how the M3 destroys the Corvette in interior build and quality too.

Originally posted by: geno

The vette has a large following and a lot of heritiage, once that car gets too expensive, it falls out of reach of those growing up to want one. There needs to be some continuity of the nameplate.

Yes, but the original question was, why can't you have both performance and a quality interior at the same time at a "reasonable" price, like the M3 (if you consider $50k reasonable for a luxury sports coupe).

And this forum needs a block list for racist pricks, aka Sh!tanu.

 

[MinorityReport]

Vette stock is very non classy in terms of interior and finish.

But do not get disheartened.

This man Lingenfelter .. he is the Guru of vettes. True American genius

Lingenfelter Vettes .. they cost $100k and up ... but if you are a real Corvette fan and money is no concern, buy Lingenfelter's vettes.

upto 800 HP,Bosch Twin Turbos, huge intercoolers and 12" wide rear tires ... Lingenfelter has class and yet manages to outperform everything else in the market ... thats real ingenity from him.

C&D had the article on his machines last week. 5 stars to him !!!

All said and done, American cars are brute force specialists.
The true American beast has to be the Viper. Funny its chief designer is a Japanese but Diamler Chrysler has improved it a lot for 2002 ... this is your best alternative to Viagra !

 

[geno]

Oh, just found out that the M3's base model doesn't even include a CD player?!!? Now wonder they keep the base price so low, it's a stripper! I'd like to see someone get an M3 off of the showroom floor for anywhere near the price of a base Vette...

 

[Cfour]

I can see where you're coming from. The resale value of a car is extremely important for a number of reasons. First and foremost if you want to call your car an asset or investment, woudln't you want that asset/investment to hold the most value possible? Just think if you get in an accident and total your car- your insurance company will not care about what condition your car was in or anything, all they will look at is the year and the value and compensate you based on that. I can see where you are coming from but resale is still important. Besides, what if somethings comes out you really like and want to get rid of your old car? it's not really something you always plan out.

Well if you total a vehicle, you get the KBB of it which is more than enough to buy that same type of car back again since nothing sells for KBB value. However, I also do not buy my cars thinking about a bunch of what if scenarios.

Tony

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: geno
Also, don't foget that BMW is building the M3 off of an existing car, while the Vette is a ground up process. No matter even what GM says or admits, that interior is one of the reasons that car stays so inexpensive. If they manage to up the quality of the interior, great - just keep that price down.

I need to question why GM has to be cheap with their flagship car.

The vette has a large following and a lot of heritiage, once that car gets too expensive, it falls out of reach of those growing up to want one. There needs to be some continuity of the nameplate.

I am not proposing pricing the Vette out of its current price range. If someone is going to spend $45-50K on a car, I don't think a few thousand to improve a car is going to scare those people off. With the current generation of young adults drooling over M3s, S4s, Boxster/911s, AMGs, etc, I think Corvette may be losing mindshare to them despite its many merits. And we all know what happened to Cadillac when they lost mindshare, mainly old people clinging to distant memories of Cadillac glory are buying their cars now(jury is still out on the CTS).

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog

Originally posted by: geno
Also, don't foget that BMW is building the M3 off of an existing car, while the Vette is a ground up process. No matter even what GM says or admits, that interior is one of the reasons that car stays so inexpensive. If they manage to up the quality of the interior, great - just keep that price down.

I need to question why GM has to be cheap with their flagship car.

The vette has a large following and a lot of heritiage, once that car gets too expensive, it falls out of reach of those growing up to want one. There needs to be some continuity of the nameplate.

I am not proposing pricing the Vette out of its current price range. If someone is going to spend $45-50K on a car, I don't think a few thousand to improve a car is going to scare those people off. With the current generation of young adults drooling over M3s, S4s, Boxster/911s, AMGs, etc, I think Corvette may be losing mindshare to them despite its many merits. And we all know what happened to Cadillac when they lost mindshare, mainly old people clinging to distant memories of Cadillac glory are buying their cars now(jury is still out on the CTS).

The CTS is a capable vehicle let down again by a poor interior (compared to the class it competes in) and oddball styling. It'll help get younger buyers to Cadillac, but for how long is NE1's guess...