GM says they will match Japan quality

[OS]

Originally posted by: geno

Because - that's how they keep the car so damn cheap - you can't get any other car with that kind of HP and performance for that price. Name me a car in that price range that can handle with the likes of even fine Italian sports cars. You want a gorgeous interior with plush materials? Then that takes it out of the price range they have dominated. Granted, comfortable doesn't always equal expensive, but this is GM. Besides, it's a friggin Vette, you should be in it to drive fast, it's an enthusiasts car. Don't like the interior? Go drive a slow ass BMW. Otherwise enjoy the car for what it is, not for how comfortable your fingers are when you turn the A/C on.

As recently as 1998 you could buy a new Supra Turbo for 40Gs.

The performance is roughly comparable to the C5 (remember it's real easy to get a boost controller), and the interior is better from what I've seen (i've sat in both cars before).

Personally, I'd rather have an mk4 supra than a C5 of equivalent mileage. Yes, I know you can't buy it anymore, but it shows that you can in fact have good build quality and a ridiculously overengineered powertrain (supra turbo motors are good up to 1000 hp in mostly stock form) at a semi affordable price.

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: bmd
In only 2 to 3 years? Fat chance.

This is hilarious! :Q Maybe in a DECADE under new management and operations technology enchancements. They've got the capital to do so, just no brains.

how long did it take vw to go from making cars that were decent but not particularly popular to the current darlings they are?

VWs have been popular for decades- the Bug sold in spades (to say the least) in Germany when it was released to increase use on the then-barren Autobahn. They instantly caught on in the U.S. as well. Volkswagens have always been immensely popular. However, I retract my decade statement on the advance of GM quality. They doesn't have the poise the Germans do- I'm gonna wager 50 years, and that's conservatively speaking, taking into account the advances in technology over the last half century.

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: Cfour

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: bmd
In only 2 to 3 years? Fat chance.

This is hilarious! :Q Maybe in a DECADE under new management and operations technology enchancements. They've got the capital to do so, just no brains.

You my friend are an ignorant SOB. And besides u own a 198x GTI, I don't even listen to what you have to say, lol. Get rid of your tunnel vision and actually go test drive some of the newer GM vehicles, and then compare the import in the same class price wise.

Tony

I may be an SOB (how nice), but I'm not ignorant. My 1986 GTI has build quality on par with or above any GM car today, with exception to Cadillac or the Corvette (MUCH higher class, price wise). Don't get me started. Why don't YOU go 'test drive' an older German auto and then compare it to the domestic in a 4x price difference. If I were to compare my 1986 GTI in its same price class, taking into account U.S. inflation over the course of 17 years, against a brand new 2003 Chevrolet Cavalier...

<NightFlyerGTI suddenly bursts into cackles of uncontrollable laughter>

Heh! Heh, ok give me a minute here folks... <wipes tears>




Ok. There is no comparison. If you think there is, you're an idiot.

 

[StattlichPassat]

GM executives see Volkswagen and Audi as prime examples of brands that can charge a premium.

Lutz, for instance, has said the Volkswagen Jetta is "clearly one of our benchmarks," adding that the car's rich interior is "one of the ways they get $24,000 for a car that belongs in the Cavalier category."

Great quote. VAG products SHOULD be the benchmark for everyone to follow. The Jetta doesn't belong in the Cavalier category as it is truly a world class car, but nevertheless, you get the point.

Ford owns a few BMWs, Audis, Toyotas and Volkswagens that they use solely for reverse engineering (re: strip them down for studies). Do the latter mentioned marques use ANYTHING domestic for reverse engineering case study analysis? Hell no. I certainly hope not.

Audi, for the record, owns a few BMWs (M3s, in particular to this sentence) that they use to study to help build more dynamically balanced cars (re: for the new S4).

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Do the latter mentioned marques use ANYTHING domestic for reverse engineering case study analysis? Hell no. I certainly hope not.

They probably own a few to let management and the worker know that THIS is what happens when you let the bean counters run the business

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Do the latter mentioned marques use ANYTHING domestic for reverse engineering case study analysis? Hell no. I certainly hope not.

They probably own a few to let management and the worker know that THIS is what happens when you let the bean counters run the business

Tee hee hee! Good point.

 

[Jenova314]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Do the latter mentioned marques use ANYTHING domestic for reverse engineering case study analysis? Hell no. I certainly hope not.

They probably own a few to let management and the worker know that THIS is what happens when you let the bean counters run the business

Tee hee hee! Good point.

what are bean counters?

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: Jenova314

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Do the latter mentioned marques use ANYTHING domestic for reverse engineering case study analysis? Hell no. I certainly hope not.

They probably own a few to let management and the worker know that THIS is what happens when you let the bean counters run the business

Tee hee hee! Good point.

what are bean counters?

The lowest job you can imagine pretty much. Ignorant workers who do jobs that pay what they and the corrosponding employee is worth.

 

[Jenova314]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: Jenova314

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Do the latter mentioned marques use ANYTHING domestic for reverse engineering case study analysis? Hell no. I certainly hope not.

They probably own a few to let management and the worker know that THIS is what happens when you let the bean counters run the business

Tee hee hee! Good point.

what are bean counters?

The lowest job you can imagine pretty much. Ignorant workers who do jobs that pay what they and the corrosponding employee is worth.

well, those are some smart bean counters then!

 

[StattlichPassat]

well, those are some smart bean counters then!

Whatever man

 

[RU482]

Not trying to knock GM, I think the quality of their products IS getting better (too bad the desirability is going down...fvcking unpainted plastic panels)

As Toyota and Honda expand their vehicle lineup, and add more assembly plants in the United States, they will experience some of the quality problems that come with size, as GM has, Lutz said. "They're going to be more like us," Lutz said.

So, does this mean GM is going to get better, or HMC and Toyota are going to come down to GM's level?

 

[Mrburns2007]

I bought a Hummer H2 for $55k last month. I was taking it on a ride through a farmland when the steel underframe came off ...yes completely.

What a bunch of Bull****, there's no way a bolt would get ripped off in soft grass. I know the strengh that a bolt can have as a fastener and there's just no way.:disgust:

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

I bought a Hummer H2 for $55k last month. I was taking it on a ride through a farmland when the steel underframe came off ...yes completely.

What a bunch of Bull****, there's no way a bolt would get ripped off in soft grass. I know the strengh that a bolt can have as a fastener and there's just no way.:disgust:

I think he was trying to point out that the bolt probably wasn't even fastened in the first place, demonstrating lack of QUALITY CONTROL.

 

[CocaCola5]

Originally posted by: SpongeBob

Maybe if American cars didn't have overboosted steering and pedals I might consider getting one. I don't like how the gas pedal feels stiff and takes away all engine braking, how the brakes come on strong with a little pressure, and how the steering is so overboosted it gives practically no road feel

Gotta love generalizations.

He's right though, the gas pedal are usually much overboosted(for various reasons that is besides performance as it really doesn't make the car any faster and ruins pedal feel). The brakes are well overboosted too.

 

[CocaCola5]

Originally posted by: Jenova314

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Do the latter mentioned marques use ANYTHING domestic for reverse engineering case study analysis? Hell no. I certainly hope not.

They probably own a few to let management and the worker know that THIS is what happens when you let the bean counters run the business

Tee hee hee! Good point.

what are bean counters?

The term is used to label accountants but these days I'd imagine it includes marketers as well, they're the arm chair CEO who thinks they know whats best for a company by the amount of money they can save.

 

[Cfour]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: Cfour

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: bmd
In only 2 to 3 years? Fat chance.

This is hilarious! :Q Maybe in a DECADE under new management and operations technology enchancements. They've got the capital to do so, just no brains.

You my friend are an ignorant SOB. And besides u own a 198x GTI, I don't even listen to what you have to say, lol. Get rid of your tunnel vision and actually go test drive some of the newer GM vehicles, and then compare the import in the same class price wise.

Tony

I may be an SOB (how nice), but I'm not ignorant. My 1986 GTI has build quality on par with or above any GM car today, with exception to Cadillac or the Corvette (MUCH higher class, price wise). Don't get me started. Why don't YOU go 'test drive' an older German auto and then compare it to the domestic in a 4x price difference. If I were to compare my 1986 GTI in its same price class, taking into account U.S. inflation over the course of 17 years, against a brand new 2003 Chevrolet Cavalier...

<NightFlyerGTI suddenly bursts into cackles of uncontrollable laughter>

Heh! Heh, ok give me a minute here folks... <wipes tears>




Ok. There is no comparison. If you think there is, you're an idiot.

I'm not sure what it is with you. Obviously you've never gone and driven a newer GM vehicle before. I'm not telling you to compare a new GM vehicle to a 198x german car.. I'm telling you to compare new to new in the same class. You will almost always get the better deal with the GM.

All you keep doing is posting the few ugly cars that are made here in America (yes the Sunfire, Cavalier, Aztec, and a few others are ugly). But, you dont see me posting the ugly imports coming over here. The new Civic SI for example, thats is disgusting. Not to mention how practical it is... you can fit two people in there and you're still cramped... and I know caus I've sat in one.

Tony

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: bmd
In only 2 to 3 years? Fat chance.

This is hilarious! :Q Maybe in a DECADE under new management and operations technology enchancements. They've got the capital to do so, just no brains.

how long did it take vw to go from making cars that were decent but not particularly popular to the current darlings they are?

VWs have been popular for decades- the Bug sold in spades (to say the least) in Germany when it was released to increase use on the then-barren Autobahn. They instantly caught on in the U.S. as well. Volkswagens have always been immensely popular. However, I retract my decade statement on the advance of GM quality. They doesn't have the poise the Germans do- I'm gonna wager 50 years, and that's conservatively speaking, taking into account the advances in technology over the last half century.

yes, the beetle was popular. and then people stopped buying VWs. why? they made fugly cars. when they started making better looking cars they became darlings again. didn't take all that long for them to do it either.

and the jetta (along with the golf and gti) is a cavalier-class vehicle. its small. its entry-level. but it has a really nice interior and a couple of quick engines available so they sell the thing for more than GM sells impalas for. honda and toyota don't sell civics and corollas for that much. even with similar equipmetn a jetta will sell for thousands more than either of those two.

 

[vi edit]

VWs have been popular for decades- the Bug sold in spades (to say the least) in Germany when it was released to increase use on the then-barren Autobahn. They instantly caught on in the U.S. as well. Volkswagens have always been immensely popular. However, I retract my decade statement on the advance of GM quality. They doesn't have the poise the Germans do- I'm gonna wager 50 years, and that's conservatively speaking, taking into account the advances in technology over the last half century.

Not quite. About 12 years ago Volkswagen was comtemplating dropping out of the US market due to piss poor sales.

and the jetta (along with the golf and gti) is a cavalier-class vehicle. its small. its entry-level. but it has a really nice interior and a couple of quick engines available so they sell the thing for more than GM sells impalas for. honda and toyota don't sell civics and corollas for that much. even with similar equipmetn a jetta will sell for thousands more than either of those two.

Jetta has a HUGE list of options above and beyond the cavalier/sunfire/focus/civic class that people try lumping it in. You can get leather, heated seats, all wheel disk brakes, traction control, power sunroof, ect on the it. As well as 4 different engine choices and 2 year, 14,000 mile longer warranty. All that comes at a price.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Jetta has a HUGE list of options above and beyond the cavalier/sunfire/focus/civic class that people try lumping it in. You can get leather, heated seats, all wheel disk brakes, traction control, power sunroof, ect on the it. As well as 4 different engine choices and 2 year, 14,000 mile longer warranty. All that comes at a price.

which is why you can easily pay $8000 more dollars for one vs a cav/sun/fucus/civic. nothing i said challenged that. in fact, i thought i explained it the first time.

 

[vi edit]

I just said what I did because too many people lump it into the cavelier class due strictly to it's size and don't take into consideration what you get for your money option wise.

 

[CocaCola5]

About the Jetta being a Cavalier-class car, the Cavalier is a one trim car, the Jetta has many(1.8T, V6, 2.0). The baseline 2.0 Jetta with the same option of the Cavalier can be had for under 16K not much more than a Cavalier, moving up the scale doesn't have to mean a LARGER car necessarily(which is usually assumed to be the case). These days with most cars already offering MORE space than is needed this is even more true. I recently test drove a 2003 Accord(with the 160hp I4) out of interest and thought after the drive that somehow it seems to be almost TOO big but then I guess thats just my taste.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: SpongeBob

Maybe if American cars didn't have overboosted steering and pedals I might consider getting one. I don't like how the gas pedal feels stiff and takes away all engine braking, how the brakes come on strong with a little pressure, and how the steering is so overboosted it gives practically no road feel

Gotta love generalizations.

Actually, from personal experience. Driven Sunfire/Cavalier, Neon, Taurus, and a few others and they all suffered from this problem (maybe not a problem to you). Granted, Kia Rio also has this problem and my friend's old protege had this problem but nowhere near as bad as the american cars that I've mentioned.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog

Originally posted by: geno

You can probably interchange parts from the interior of the Corvette with a Cavalier or Lumina or Avalanche. Why did GM have to be so damn cheap and not spend a little money to get a unique interior?

Because - that's how they keep the car so damn cheap - you can't get any other car with that kind of HP and performance for that price. Name me a car in that price range that can handle with the likes of even fine Italian sports cars. You want a gorgeous interior with plush materials? Then that takes it out of the price range they have dominated. Granted, comfortable doesn't always equal expensive, but this is GM. Besides, it's a friggin Vette, you should be in it to drive fast, it's an enthusiasts car. Don't like the interior? Go drive a slow ass BMW. Otherwise enjoy the car for what it is, not for how comfortable your fingers are when you turn the A/C on.

If BMW can put out a quality product in a $45k+ M3 that can keep up with a Vette and have a nice interior, why can't GM?

The M3 is a full 10K more with options, likely costs more to maintain and isn't near as fast. Apples and oranges. M3 is "luxury sport", Corvette is pure sport.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: Doggiedog

Originally posted by: geno

You can probably interchange parts from the interior of the Corvette with a Cavalier or Lumina or Avalanche. Why did GM have to be so damn cheap and not spend a little money to get a unique interior?

Because - that's how they keep the car so damn cheap - you can't get any other car with that kind of HP and performance for that price. Name me a car in that price range that can handle with the likes of even fine Italian sports cars. You want a gorgeous interior with plush materials? Then that takes it out of the price range they have dominated. Granted, comfortable doesn't always equal expensive, but this is GM. Besides, it's a friggin Vette, you should be in it to drive fast, it's an enthusiasts car. Don't like the interior? Go drive a slow ass BMW. Otherwise enjoy the car for what it is, not for how comfortable your fingers are when you turn the A/C on.

If BMW can put out a quality product in a $45k+ M3 that can keep up with a Vette and have a nice interior, why can't GM?

The M3 is a full 10K more with options, likely costs more to maintain and isn't near as fast. Apples and oranges. M3 is "luxury sport", Corvette is pure sport.

Corvette base price/fully loaded including destination: $42,350 / 50,970
M3 base price/fully loaded including destination : $46,545 / $54,640

And some of the options I added on the M3 can't even be had on the Vette like a GPS navigation system, rear side airbags, Nappa leather interior, rear park sense, Bi-Xenon lights, etc. The M3 also has a 48 month/50,000 mile warranty with free scheduled maintenance vs a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty for the Vette.

Also, the M3 is just as fast as the Corvette...now the Z06 is a different matter.


$10,000 difference my ass You could say that the M3 is almost a steal for what you get.

 

[Shantanu]

The M3 doesn't even come close to the performance and handling of a Corvette. The Corvette gets compared to Porsches and Ferraris. The M3 gets compared to Audi S4's and Subaru WRX's. Not even in the same league...

The M3 pretends to be "luxury-sport", but there's nothing particularly luxurious about it as the interior is quite severe, chock full of black plastic.

The Corvette doesn't pretend to be "luxury-sport", it's all sport. The interior is suitable for the car. Either way, it's not the kind of car people buy for the interior. If you want a mobile living room, go buy a Deville or an ES300.

The one huge advantage the M3 has over the Corvette is that it can seat 4 people, perhaps not comfortably, but it can be done. But that advantage doesn't seem to translate into better sales as the Corvette outsold the M3 2,912 to 426 last month. I guess the M3's bland styling is too high a price to pay for a $45,000 car