GM signs deal to move electric car development to China

[Sonikku]

lols, of course they are. The Chinese are the ones digging up the materials needed to build the shit, while here in the USA we're bitching about it being to dirty and ruining our environment. Idiots.

Perhaps one day America can be the polluted paradise China is one day. :thumbsup:

 

[Kadarin]

This is idiotic short-term MBA style thinking where some jackass exec is thinking about the quarterly bottom line, signs this deal, gets a huge bonus, and then... Before long, China backs out of the deal and starts producing their own electric cars. And we're fucked.

These "strategic" technology transfer agreements between the US and China should be made illegal.

 

[PeshakJang]

How could Obama allow a member of his administration to do this? Why hasn't he made a statement?

 

[Ausm]

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...hina-electric-car-deal----a-china-shakedown/1

Here's what our taxpayer-funded government bailout bought us. Good thing they robbed the bond holders and gave the union a majority of the stock.

The good news is that the left and the right agree on something - that the other side is selling us out and willfully destroying the country as it is presently configured. The bad news is that both sides are correct.

I think we should listened to the GOP and let the American Auto industry and support companies go down the tubes...

 

[DrPizza]

I think everyone has missed the bigger picture. Our science and math education in the US is, overall, pathetic. Most [edit: last I looked, it was increasing and very close to 50%; I assume by now that it's over 50%, but could be off just a little bit.] of our PhD students in those areas at our top universities are not American students. If we want to ensure a strong future for our nation, we have to be at the cutting edge in technology. We rested. We sat back. We said "we're the best" while ignoring that a lot of countries realized that their best way out of the dark ages was to do the same thing - educate their citizens. We weren't worried - they didn't have the infrastructure to put their best people to work. They didn't have the financial resources to put their best people to work. But, that's changing, and once they get their shit together, you can kiss our #1 place in the world good-bye. And, until we get our priorities straight, we're going to go downhill.

Stop and think about this statistic: Between China and India, their top 10%, brightest students are MORE than all of the students in the U.S. put together.

The state of the future of automobiles is electric cars, period. And, the *RESEARCH* is moving to China. 50 years from now, you won't probably won't be able to purchase a gasoline powered car. Guess which world power is going to control the entire process, from R&D to manufacturing of the cars we drive (if we can still afford them with our service industry jobs.)

 

[Doppel]

Between China and India, their top 10%, brightest students are MORE than all of the students in the U.S. put together.

To soften the blow of this, however, the population of the US is less than 15% of China and India together, too

Education does lack in the US internationally. It doesn't get less attention than it used to so something else has changed. Perhaps too much coddling, not enough meritocracy, I am not sure.

 

[Triumph]

Yup, beginning of the end. US companies are bailing on the US. People say, "Why would companies want to work in a country that is hostile towards business (USA)?" Why do we want companies in our country that are hostile towards the citizens of the USA? These people are not our friends, these "job creators." What's funny is that through all of their investing in China in order to "remain competitive", they're going to find that Chinese companies will thank them kindly for the free knowledge and turn around and start competing directly. Way to go, GM, you just created your own future competitor in electric vehicles without even knowing it, and you did it for free.

 

[Zargon]

That sucks.

But the Volt sucks. Nissan Leaf's technology is better.

I'd rather have the gas engine back up personally, not that I dislike the leaf

 

[werepossum]

I remember 7 or 8 years ago bush blocked funding for these types of companies doing battery work here in america. Some experts warned if we dont get ahead of it we wont have that as a industry. Now look what happened.

LOL Why am I not surprised that you blame Bush?

We did get out ahead of it - GM did the R&D in America, largely with tax payer funds. Now GM is moving further development to China because China is using its leverage to move more high tech to Chinese companies. GM has already helped make China the world's largest automobile producer, now China is using that very strength against GM to squeeze out its latest technology. In another ten years or so, China won't need GM at all.

I thought the one good thing about Obama stealing from the bond holders to enrich the union was that outsourcing would be discouraged. Looks like I was wrong.

The Volt isn't that popular for it to need 2 different factories running simultaneously.
The Volt certainly isn't selling like hot cakes.

7,671 in 2011, missing the very modest goal of 10,000 even with substantial taxpayer-funded subsidies.

http://www.slashgear.com/volt-misses-2011-sales-goals-05206315/

I'm sure sales will improve once GM has cheaper Chinese labor in combination with taxpayer-funded R&D (carried out in China of course) as well as taxpayer-funded subsidies.

I've been looking at a Chevy Equinox, but that's over. I'm completely done with Government Motors.

 

[Ktulu]

From what I get from the article is that GM is going to co-develop an EV platform with China FOR China. They are not going to start building US Volts or EVs in China and ship them back to us and they aren't moving all EV development to China. Whatever they're going to develop is for Chinese consumption.

 

[werepossum]

This is idiotic short-term MBA style thinking where some jackass exec is thinking about the quarterly bottom line, signs this deal, gets a huge bonus, and then... Before long, China backs out of the deal and starts producing their own electric cars. And we're fucked.

These "strategic" technology transfer agreements between the US and China should be made illegal.

A lot of the blame for this goes to Clinton for removing virtually all barriers to technology transfer to China. Bush and Obama get some too for doing nothing to fix the problem even after its scope became hideously apparent. And we as consumers deserve a buttload of blame for buying Chinese-made crap. Even with both parties solidly behind internationalization, we could have stopped much of this by simply buying American.

The damnedest thing is that there is a well-known record for these kinds of deals, as you point out. Soon, the cheap labor nation doesn't need the parent company anymore and goes into competition with it, usually putting it out of business. Yet it still happens.

I think everyone has missed the bigger picture. Our science and math education in the US is, overall, pathetic. Most [edit: last I looked, it was increasing and very close to 50%; I assume by now that it's over 50%, but could be off just a little bit.] of our PhD students in those areas at our top universities are not American students. If we want to ensure a strong future for our nation, we have to be at the cutting edge in technology. We rested. We sat back. We said "we're the best" while ignoring that a lot of countries realized that their best way out of the dark ages was to do the same thing - educate their citizens. We weren't worried - they didn't have the infrastructure to put their best people to work. They didn't have the financial resources to put their best people to work. But, that's changing, and once they get their shit together, you can kiss our #1 place in the world good-bye. And, until we get our priorities straight, we're going to go downhill.

Stop and think about this statistic: Between China and India, their top 10%, brightest students are MORE than all of the students in the U.S. put together.

The state of the future of automobiles is electric cars, period. And, the *RESEARCH* is moving to China. 50 years from now, you won't probably won't be able to purchase a gasoline powered car. Guess which world power is going to control the entire process, from R&D to manufacturing of the cars we drive (if we can still afford them with our service industry jobs.)

This is all true, but it's a two-way street. Who wants to go into science or engineering when it's apparent that all those jobs are being sent to China? The only real high income growth industries left are financial or legal, especially if one can get into a high government position.

 

[PricklyPete]

That sucks.

But the Volt sucks. Nissan Leaf's technology is better.

Do you mind elaborating on how the "technology is better". I would really like to hear this =.

 

[werepossum]

I think we should listened to the GOP and let the American Auto industry and support companies go down the tubes...

Because subsidizing them as they willingly go down the tubes is better . . . somehow.

Yup, beginning of the end. US companies are bailing on the US. People say, "Why would companies want to work in a country that is hostile towards business (USA)?" Why do we want companies in our country that are hostile towards the citizens of the USA? These people are not our friends, these "job creators." What's funny is that through all of their investing in China in order to "remain competitive", they're going to find that Chinese companies will thank them kindly for the free knowledge and turn around and start competing directly. Way to go, GM, you just created your own future competitor in electric vehicles without even knowing it, and you did it for free.

True, but a lot of our hostility to business is based on valuable things like environmental protection and safety regulation. I think we need to make business a lot easier and more profitable, but I also think we need stiff tariffs to protect our business from the cost of complying with the good regulations as well as comparatively high labor rates.

From what I get from the article is that GM is going to co-develop an EV platform with China FOR China. They are not going to start building US Volts or EVs in China and ship them back to us and they aren't moving all EV development to China. Whatever they're going to develop is for Chinese consumption.

From the article:

General Motors agreed in Shanghai today to develop an electric vehicle platform with longtime Chinese partner SAIC. It effectively moves GM's future electric vehicle development to China. Unclear is whether this would also lead to assembly of future EVs for the U.S. market in China.
SNIP
Girsky hinted that the Volt could eventually be built in China. "If we localize, eventually it won't have a tariff and it will get the subsidy. We have made no decision on if, when or where we build Volt in the future."

In the end of course it really makes little difference. In a decade or so, China will have the technology and can easily out-compete GM whether or not GM builds its electric cars in China.

 

[bfdd]

Perhaps one day America can be the polluted paradise China is one day. :thumbsup:

Or you could stop looking at it like a fucking retard and realize every job that creates a mess creates at least one to clean it up. It's called keeping people busy.

 

[werepossum]

I have been saying for years, until our government cuts off all these tax breaks for companies that do this kind of stuff, the american people will continue to be taken advantaged of. Why didn't they go to China and get a loan when they had nothing?

Very true. It all comes down to our politicians and our voters/consumers. China charges import tariffs; we don't. China requires at least 50% Chinese ownership; we don't. China offers a subsidy only on Chinese-made cars; we pay subsidies no matter where they are built.

We richly deserve our decline, having so willingly contributed to it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Now hold on just a cotton picking second! According to advocates of free markets and free trade, the knowledge-based jobs like engineering and electric car development are supposed to stay in the United States and only the dirty filthy low-skill factory jobs will go to China.

Are you trying to suggest that the best economists are wrong? This report contradicts everything we know about how the free market works. The college-education-requiring knowledge-based jobs are supposed to stay here in the United States.

This news report is all lies!!!

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What's good for the goose (company) isn't good for the gander (country) with outsourcing. Each company looking out for its bottom line, all striving toward the lowest common denominator. You outsource, you have an edge. Until your competitor does it, then you're fighting just like before, except now you're outsourced and can't back it out if you wanted to.

It's akin to a tragedy of the commons type of situation or the problem of externalities. This type of problem is exactly why we need a rational government--to prevent these types of economic conflicts of interest from wrecking mass destruction.

 

[woodie1]

A little off-topic: GM is recalling all the Volts sold/built so far to improve the structure around the battery pack to reduce the chance of a fire after a crash. Interesting. Plus they will send a team out to drain the battery once they find out a Volt has been involved in a crash. How's that high tech working out?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I think everyone has missed the bigger picture. Our science and math education in the US is, overall, pathetic.

People read about how American children aren't doing well in science and math and panic. What they fail to realize is that only a small percentage need to do well in those subjects.

Who cares if your waitress, plumber, or truck driver doesn't understand Calculus or Quantum Mechanics? The overwhelming majority of jobs do not require or make any use of anything beyond basic math or science knowledge, even in prior decades before we were exposed to global labor arbitrage.

This issue is a red herring that's brought out by the free market dogmatists to try to trick the sheeple into thinking that the reason good American jobs are going overseas is because Americans suddenly became retarded in recent decades.

The real issue is whether or not sufficient Americans (that tiny 1% or 2% that we need) are majoring in math and science fields in college and whether they are learning those fields properly.

Most [edit: last I looked, it was increasing and very close to 50%; I assume by now that it's over 50%, but could be off just a little bit.] of our PhD students in those areas at our top universities are not American students.

One possible reason is that American students perceive that majoring in science and math is no longer lucrative and that they would be better served by going to medical school or by obtaining business degrees.

Did you know that a huge amount of PhD. scientists in America are underemployed-involuntarily-out-of-field? Today your average science doctorate will get stuck working in long-hour, low-paying gypsy scientist positions called postdocs (until they can no longer find their next postdoc). It's been estimated elsewhere that the "scientists career half-life" is only around ten years.

Here is some interesting food for thought:

The Real Science Gap: It's not insufficient schooling or a shortage of scientists. It's a lack of job opportunities. Americans need the reasonable hope that spending their youth preparing to do science will provide a satisfactory career.

Part of the problem is that our government allowed our universities to get flooded with foreign graduate students, which the schools use as a form of cheap labor to teach the undergraduates and to do the grunt work in the research laboratories. This has resulted in a large amount of PhD. overproduction.

If we want to ensure a strong future for our nation, we have to be at the cutting edge in technology. We rested. We sat back. We said "we're the best" while ignoring that a lot of countries realized that their best way out of the dark ages was to do the same thing - educate their citizens. We weren't worried - they didn't have the infrastructure to put their best people to work. They didn't have the financial resources to put their best people to work. But, that's changing, and once they get their shit together, you can kiss our #1 place in the world good-bye. And, until we get our priorities straight, we're going to go downhill.

We need to develop and enact economic policies that pursue broad, long-term American economic interests instead of the interests of a tiny percentage of wealthy Americans.

We may NOT be able to retain research and development in this country without subsidies simply because ideas can easily cross international borders and it would be irrational not to take advantage and to use knowledge discovered elsewhere. It may very well turn out that it doesn't make economic sense to engage in non-military R&D in this country. Why do it when foreign scientists will work for a fraction of the American middle class standard of living? (If a foreign scientist discovers a cure for cancer or a much more efficient microchip, it would be irrational of us not to use it simply because an American didn't invent it.)

Fortunately, the vast majority of jobs are not R&D, but rather manufacturing and non-innovative forms of white collar labor. Those jobs we can protect and can keep from crossing international borders.

Stop and think about this statistic: Between China and India, their top 10%, brightest students are MORE than all of the students in the U.S. put together.

Both nations have gigantic populations and supposedly the average Chinese IQ is higher than the average American IQ. The Chinese may have a genetic advantage in that area.

Interestingly, after India and China, the United States is (by far) the world's third most populous country.

The state of the future of automobiles is electric cars, period. And, the *RESEARCH* is moving to China. 50 years from now, you won't probably won't be able to purchase a gasoline powered car. Guess which world power is going to control the entire process, from R&D to manufacturing of the cars we drive (if we can still afford them with our service industry jobs.)

There might not be much we can do on the R&D front unless we want to subsidize American R&D, which might not make economic sense. What we can do is require that any electric vehicles and their components be manufactured in the United States. The vast majority of jobs in this area will be in the manufacturing and practical engineering of the vehicles, not in the innovative R&D.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Do you mind elaborating on how the "technology is better". I would really like to hear this =.

Look at the electric range for both vehicles.
Leaf 100+ without without regenerative charging
Volt 35m range.

Leaf will recharge on the go adding about 25m
Volt does not - much switch to fuel.

From the consumer viewpoint (per dealer info last fall)
Leaf is all electric - charging system provided by Nissan to customer
Volt is a hybrid - charging system options - go to dealer or pay for it at home.

Charging time is the same for both vehicles.


I have test driven both when in Detroit.
I was much more impressed by the Leaf. (punched to 80mph without realizing it - no wind or engine noise)
However, until there is a 200+ mile range and faster recharging, the garage will sit empty.
I want to be able to get 400 miles a day fro the vehicle. so the recharge has to happen within 1 hour time to get me the total range.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Or you could stop looking at it like a fucking retard and realize every job that creates a mess creates at least one to clean it up. It's called keeping people busy.

Don't kid yourself. Having to deal with pollution and other negative environmental consequences of manufacturing is a cost--it does not make us richer. The human effort that's spent dealing with that does not directly produce consumable goods or services.

What you're saying is akin to saying, "We could have a great economy and we could become wealthy if only we would blow up perfectly useful houses and buildings so that Americans can be employed to rebuild them." Or, "We need to start a big war to fix our economy."

Tearing down Building X for the purpose of reconstructing Building X in the same condition it was in previously is not the creation of wealth--it's just a waste of human effort. It might keep the masses busy, but it won't increase the nation's wealth nor improve the populace's net standard of living.

 

[Modelworks]

The problems in the USA for issues like this and most of the other ones is the shift in thinking of the population. In the past it was "We as Americans need to do everything we can to make this country great" , now it is "I as an American need to do everything I can to fill my needs" .

The USA is now a every man for himself nation. Countries that are doing well now or are doing better have something we lack, they have pride in their countries and are willing to sacrifice personally to make it better. Most Americans climbed to the top of the mountain in years past and then sat down and said screw it, I'm not climbing any more mountains, I'll just push off anyone else trying to climb up on this one.

 

[Modelworks]

Don't kid yourself. Having to deal with pollution and other negative environmental consequences of manufacturing is a cost--it does not make us richer. The human effort that's spent dealing with that does not directly produce consumable goods or services.

Have you heard about the port of Charleston, SC ?
The port has the ability to increase jobs by the thousands, they have companies wanting to use the port more, they need to build a bigger port, but they can't. The government has so many regulations in place regarding the environment that it will take years of studies before construction can begin.

My own county wants to rebuild the rail lines to open up shipping to ports and the ports were even going to pay for the construction. It was approved to go ahead and will be done, in 15 YEARS, when the environmental impact studies are finished.

New nuclear plants are waiting to be built. We have excellent new designs that could be started tomorrow , but we can't build them because it takes 10-20 years to get all the damn permits.

 

[werepossum]

The problems in the USA for issues like this and most of the other ones is the shift in thinking of the population. In the past it was "We as Americans need to do everything we can to make this country great" , now it is "I as an American need to do everything I can to fill my needs" .

The USA is now a every man for himself nation. Countries that are doing well now or are doing better have something we lack, they have pride in their countries and are willing to sacrifice personally to make it better. Most Americans climbed to the top of the mountain in years past and then sat down and said screw it, I'm not climbing any more mountains, I'll just push off anyone else trying to climb up on this one.

Quite true. I'm a huge fan of enlightened self interest - "what can I do to make life better for me and my family?" But when we switched to "what can other people do to make life better for me and my family?" we screwed up. And when we switched from rewarding American production to rewarding cheap foreign production, we probably sealed our fate.

 

[Triumph]

From what I get from the article is that GM is going to co-develop an EV platform with China FOR China. They are not going to start building US Volts or EVs in China and ship them back to us and they aren't moving all EV development to China. Whatever they're going to develop is for Chinese consumption.

That's how it starts, but it won't stay that way. Given the huge trade advantage China has, once everything is established, GM would be foolish to NOT build those cars in China and export them back to here. Oh, and they also would have been designed in China by that point. So much for GM being a "domestic" auto manufacturer.