Gm's old Delphi parts division wants a 68% pay cut for its UAW employees..

[mugs]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Zebo

I diagree

$27 is smack dab in the middle of middle class. Average household income is 48K. $27 and hour is 54K.

Average household income usually means the income of the household, not of each working person. If the mom/dad are working, on average they make $48k combined, or $24k each. Keep in mind that there are a lot of single-parent households so not all of the numbers are multiplied by 2. But all in all, these people are making almost double the average per capita income.

You are correct... $27/hr puts them above the average with a SINGLE income. Chances are though the second income will only be in the $10/hr range unless the spouse is in a union too.

But since when should a factory worker be entitled to be in the middle class on one income or two? Unskilled factory jobs are lower class jobs. Somebody has to be in the lower class. You're entitled to what an employer is willing to pay you in a free market.

 

[natto fire]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: BD2003
Oh thats right, because youre not a real american if you dont buy american cars eh?

Pretty much. Japanese sure arnt spending thier paychecks we give them here.

The number 1 reason I bought a Honda was reliability. If an American car company could give me that, I'd GLADLY give my money to an American company over a foreign company. I WISH I could do that.

ummm most Hondas are made in America. There is lots of misinformation, 'patriotism' and just plain stupidity in this thread. So Zebo, when foreign car companies spend billions of dollars opening plants and employing hundreds of thousands of workers, they are pulling this money out of thin air? Oh, wait they probably used the money that 'douchebags' paid for a superior product. Fleet sales have often been a crutch to move lots of shoddy vehicles. And next time you need to get a part for your Saturn, Mustang, etc. check the box to see where it was made, there is a good chance it will say Mexico, or Canada.

And Unions are not killing American business, Americans are killing American business. Everybody wants more for less, and it simply doesn't work that way.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy

ummm most Hondas are made in America. There is lots of misinformation, 'patriotism' and just plain stupidity in this thread. So Zebo, when foreign car companies spend billions of dollars opening plants and employing hundreds of thousands of workers, they are pulling this money out of thin air? Oh, wait they probably used the money that 'douchebags' paid for a superior product. Fleet sales have often been a crutch to move lots of shoddy vehicles. And next time you need to get a part for your Saturn, Mustang, etc. check the box to see where it was made, there is a good chance it will say Mexico, or Canada.

And Unions are not killing American business, Americans are killing American business. Everybody wants more for less, and it simply doesn't work that way.

The problem union workers have with the foreign auto companies is that they pay their American workers a fair wage and take their profits back to Japan or wherever. They'd rather the workers be paid more than they deserve until the company has to cut corners, cripple itself and eventually die, leaving them without their cash cow. And they call us short-sighted. :roll:

 

[ryox03]

To the network administrator who has never had to work for under $45,000, thats nice lol. I work in IT as well, helped develope our network based security, our website online ordering for businesses, rehashed up the telxon system for familiarity with the older sales force and customers AND itergrated it into the system. Work with UNIX and Windows. All the good stuff, and I make 14 dollars an hour, am about to turn 23, and live in a ****** box apartment because it costs so much to live in long island, new york. I will say this though as far as cars, I have a 1990 Lincoln Town Car which is huge, and almost 16 years old, but it still runs mint at almost 200,000 miles. They don't make them like they used to I guess. Anyways I don't know, I don't like the fact that I make what I make after going to school and having work experience in my field. So to see somebody who didn't have to even graduate high school, let alone spending thousands of THEIR OWN MONEY to further their education making more than me, that kinda peeves me a little.

 

[SKoprowski]

Originally posted by: ryox03
To the network administrator who has never had to work for under $45,000, thats nice lol. I work in IT as well, helped develope our network based security, our website online ordering for businesses, rehashed up the telxon system for familiarity with the older sales force and customers AND itergrated it into the system. Work with UNIX and Windows. All the good stuff, and I make 14 dollars an hour, am about to turn 23, and live in a ****** box apartment because it costs so much to live in long island, new york. I will say this though as far as cars, I have a 1990 Lincoln Town Car which is huge, and almost 16 years old, but it still runs mint at almost 200,000 miles. They don't make them like they used to I guess. Anyways I don't know, I don't like the fact that I make what I make after going to school and having work experience in my field. So to see somebody who didn't have to even graduate high school, let alone spending thousands of THEIR OWN MONEY to further their education making more than me, that kinda peeves me a little.

Your situation is exactly what the UAW workers are trying to prevent- how can you not see that?? The demand and pay for IT workers decreased dramatically since outsourcing of IT became common practice among business. I subscribe to Computerworld and the magazine has nothing but articles on how to deal with less jobs and less pay- it's depressing. The global economy is going to kill all workers eventually, whether it be blue or white collar. It is the middle class that purchases most of the goods- if they don't have money to buy things the whole US economy will collapse.

 

[Red Dawn]

LOL, nothing funnier than a bunch of IT workers fscking around at OT while they're supposed to be working saying that Union Members are lazy and worthless:laugh:

 

[SKoprowski]

I just don't think people understand how serious this situation is. People deserve to be treated fair- why do you all get mad at a factory worker making $25.00/hr? You should ask yourself why you are not making $25.00/hr. All I read here is jealousy. This will start a cycle that other business' will follow and eventually trickle in all jobs. This is not good- I don't care if you are a white color or not.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski

Originally posted by: ryox03
To the network administrator who has never had to work for under $45,000, thats nice lol. I work in IT as well, helped develope our network based security, our website online ordering for businesses, rehashed up the telxon system for familiarity with the older sales force and customers AND itergrated it into the system. Work with UNIX and Windows. All the good stuff, and I make 14 dollars an hour, am about to turn 23, and live in a ****** box apartment because it costs so much to live in long island, new york. I will say this though as far as cars, I have a 1990 Lincoln Town Car which is huge, and almost 16 years old, but it still runs mint at almost 200,000 miles. They don't make them like they used to I guess. Anyways I don't know, I don't like the fact that I make what I make after going to school and having work experience in my field. So to see somebody who didn't have to even graduate high school, let alone spending thousands of THEIR OWN MONEY to further their education making more than me, that kinda peeves me a little.

Your situation is exactly what the UAW workers are trying to prevent- how can you not see that?? The demand and pay for IT workers decreased dramatically since outsourcing of IT became common practice among business. I subscribe to Computerworld and the magazine has nothing but articles on how to deal with less jobs and less pay- it's depressing. The global economy is going to kill all workers eventually, whether it be blue or white collar. It is the middle class that purchases most of the goods- if they don't have money to buy things the whole US economy will collapse.

you can't OUTSOURCE what he does. he is the hands on Network Admin. what you think someone in India is going to be able to terminal in and do what he does?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
I just don't think people understand how serious this situation is. People deserve to be treated fair- why do you all get mad at a factory worker making $25.00/hr? You should ask yourself why you are not making $25.00/hr. All I read here is jealousy. This will start a cycle that other business' will follow and eventually trickle in all jobs. This is not good- I don't care if you are a white color or not.

so, if someone says, i'm not jealous i make quite a bit more than $25.00 an hour, you will just say, oh you are just bragging.

if someone makes less, than they are just jealous.

:roll:

 

[spikespiegal]

I gotta jump in on this one, if mainly to rebuke the flag waving racists masquerading as 'pro-american' and telling us to avoid Japanese products. You people, are *ignorant* and are a big reason for the debacle..

I come from a family of auto workers, and I also work for a company that supplies parts to the big three. From our point of view, the problems with the American auto industry are obvious.

1 - Thank the big three for helping create a blue collar culture of overpaid 'good old boy' types who expect to make $25 an hour with no HS diploma, an I.Q of 90, and expect gold level health care and free pensions for life. Unlike most modern countries, the U.S. seems to celebrate poorly educated factory workers by paying them double what a recent college graduate typically makes and providing them insane benefits. *That* is absurd, and embarrasing. You are a factory worker because you don't have ambition to do anything else, or simply aren't smart enough. The high wages you are accustomed to making have no benefit other than to contribute to our economic cash flow. You *are* over-paid, the fat lady has come home to sing, and your job will be moved to Mexico or China where somebody that can't even speak English is both more efficient and intelligent than you are. I have seen countless statistics that show as college educations go up, the increasing tendency is for that person not to buy an American vehicle. Go figure.

2 - The big three have historically paid their own workers massive incentives to buy their own products, while those same workers yell at everybody else that they should buy American. This has created an artificial market for the auto-industry, and sucked valuable capital away from R&D that would have allowed the big three to compete with Japan. Now that many of those worker's jobs are being displaced to foreign countries, there is a corresponding loss of market. Boo-Hoo. I guess you'll have to come up with a down payment like everybody else and not have Uncle Earl who works at Ford co-sign on the car loan so you don't need a dime to to drive it off the lot. Boo-Hoo

3 - The big three build *inferior* cars to Japan - get over it. Every survey, every poll, avery long term study shows Honda and Toyota making U.S. cars look like junk. The most fuel efficient cars are Japanese, the most reliable are Japanse, the most satisfied customers are Import owners. All the domestic automakers seem to know how to build are gas guzzling SUV's with crappy resale, and treating the fuel efficient compact market like a waste of time. The Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Nissan Sentra are among the most durable and reliable cars on the road. The domestic equivelants depreciate 50% after they are driven off the lot. The problem here is that big three engineers are brainwashed that the 'muscle car revolution' is just around the corner, and that 20yr old somethings need big cars to fuel their self esteem because they'll have the discretionary income to do so. [Buzzzz] ..I guess that halucination is over.

4 - The big three are more Anti-American than Japan. My Altima is made in Tenn, but right now were getting bombarded by Ford and GM demanding we look to move our production to Mexico to save *them* costs. I'd rather buy a Japanese car from a Japanse company that's investing in the U.S. vs pay GM/Ford/Chrysler money to invest in pushing production to Mexico. Big fat irony, isn't it?

 

[ryox03]

lol that is one thing that is true, i don't have to worry about outsourcing my job, everything is hands on, ever have problems with line printers in unix? some guy in pakistan wont be able to handle that, or a hardware failure. The jobs that are getting outsourced are help desk/support jobs. I don't really care about that cause the way I see it, there is no reason you should be in IT and have THAT be your desired position, you can do so many different things it is insane. Anyways, unless you have a lot of years experience, IT is no longer about being paid what you are worth, it is, at least for me, the chance to have a job doing something I enjoy, which to me is just as important as the cash.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, nothing funnier than a bunch of IT workers fscking around at OT while they're supposed to be working saying that Union Members are lazy and worthless:laugh:

Red, you have to admit that the UAW is harming america. Real unions like the steel workers and trade unions are good things. The UAW has inflated wages on often skilless jobs to the point where the wages/benefits are destroying the companies productivities. Auto workers don't need the protections that real union workers have and need. It's rediculous the protections the UAW workers have, they can be complete idiots who don't show up to work and the unions protect them. You don't see that kind of behavior in real, needed unions.

 

[mchammer]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, nothing funnier than a bunch of IT workers fscking around at OT while they're supposed to be working saying that Union Members are lazy and worthless:laugh:

ahahaha

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, nothing funnier than a bunch of IT workers fscking around at OT while they're supposed to be working saying that Union Members are lazy and worthless:laugh:

Red, you have to admit that the UAW is harming america. Real unions like the steel workers and trade unions are good things. The UAW has inflated wages on often skilless jobs to the point where the wages/benefits are destroying the companies productivities. Auto workers don't need the protections that real union workers have and need. It's rediculous the protections the UAW workers have, they can be complete idiots who don't show up to work and the unions protect them. You don't see that kind of behavior in real, needed unions.

You're right, the complete idiots should only get $3 hr to at least compete with the Chineese and India.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ryox03
lol that is one thing that is true, i don't have to worry about outsourcing my job, everything is hands on, ever have problems with line printers in unix? some guy in pakistan wont be able to handle that, or a hardware failure. The jobs that are getting outsourced are help desk/support jobs. I don't really care about that cause the way I see it, there is no reason you should be in IT and have THAT be your desired position, you can do so many different things it is insane. Anyways, unless you have a lot of years experience, IT is no longer about being paid what you are worth, it is, at least for me, the chance to have a job doing something I enjoy, which to me is just as important as the cash.

I agree with you 100%...the people crying about the pak/india/etc outsourcing are doing a job anyone can do, anywhere.

I am in IT/IS. We need 99.99999+% uptime. I need to be there and on-call. I get a decent wage, and great benefits. I am pushing my wages up and up as I took this job at a bit less than I wanted to start. So far I am moving forward nicely.

Most of our Help Desk was just outsourced...it's a huge company that handles customers with help desk's that just route calls to the proper IT/IS/Support individual/department. We have kept most of the current staff which will be trained as level 2 support and handle actual changes/fixes.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Most of our Help Desk was just outsourced...

Don't you feel like a proud American to send American jobs to India?

I don't know how people like this can sleep at night.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Most of our Help Desk was just outsourced...

Don't you feel like a proud American to send American jobs to India?

I don't know how people like this can sleep at night.

It's absolutely pathetic. Makes me want to puke.
Welcome to the world that is ATOT.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, nothing funnier than a bunch of IT workers fscking around at OT while they're supposed to be working saying that Union Members are lazy and worthless:laugh:

Red, you have to admit that the UAW is harming america. Real unions like the steel workers and trade unions are good things. The UAW has inflated wages on often skilless jobs to the point where the wages/benefits are destroying the companies productivities. Auto workers don't need the protections that real union workers have and need. It's rediculous the protections the UAW workers have, they can be complete idiots who don't show up to work and the unions protect them. You don't see that kind of behavior in real, needed unions.

Uhm - the steel workers (with considerable help from management) killed off their industry two decades ago. In fact the parallels to the auto industries situation are pretty striiking.

 

[boomerang]

Every contract that was "won" by the UAW was agreed to in totality by management.

Does the UAW deserve some bashing, yes. Does management deserve some bashing, yes. It took both parties to hammer out the agreement. The UAW hasn't had the upper hand with management in a contract negotiation for decades. How can you be critical of the UAW for winning better wages and benefits for the workers it represents? Address some of that anger at management. They are fully and wholly responsible for the mess the company is in.

Remember, they agreed to the wage and benefit packages that they now say are leading to their undoing. They decide what ugly cars they produce. GM bought stake in Fiat that cost the company billions. They decided to make a bunch of SUV's and trucks that the American public no longer wants. I could go on and on.

Unhappy with UAW wages? Buy a share of stock, go on down to the shareholders meeting and ask those highly educated, highly compensated execs just what the hell they were thinking!

You think a 50% wage cut for those overpaid UAW members is good for the country? You think they've had it coming for a long time and it's about damn time?

Well, tell me this. Where does it stop?

Someday soon people making $20 an hour are going to find their job now pays $14 an hour. Take it or leave it. Those making $14 now will be making $9, and those making $7 are going to making minimum wage. The only thing that is going to stop corporate greed in the US is the economic collapse of the country. The signs are all there. The vast overwhelming majority of Americans are living on Credit Cards and paycheck to paycheck on top of it. The country itself, the government itself, is operating on borrowed money.

You think you're going to be immune to this downward wage spiral? You're dreaming.

GM has already said that one of the positives of the Delphi situation is that they expect to pay less for the components now. I'll bet that sent a shiver down the spine of the Deplhi execs. Less?!? But, but, but we were going to charge you the same!

Your company is going to see workers at big corporations being paid less and they are going to want a piece of that action. It will be irresistable to them. They're making plans already.

If you're not worried about the reduction in your standard of living I envy you. You're a dumb motherf***er, but I still envy you.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: boomerang
Every contract that was "won" by the UAW was agreed to in totality by management.

Does the UAW deserve some bashing, yes. Does management deserve some bashing, yes. It took both parties to hammer out the agreement. The UAW hasn't had the upper hand with management in a contract negotiation for decades. How can you be critical of the UAW for winning better wages and benefits for the workers it represents? Address some of that anger at management. They are fully and wholly responsible for the mess the company is in

Remember, they agreed to the wage and benefit packages that they now say are leading to their undoing. They decide what ugly cars they produce. GM bought stake in Fiat that cost the company billions. They decided to make a bunch of SUV's and trucks that the American public no longer wants. I could go on and on.

Yea, management has alot of responsibility here. But to say the unions aren't responsible because management agreed to their demands is ludicris. The UAW has such a stranglehold on the industry that management was essentially negotiating with a gun to their head. They don't have the financial resources to break a striike by waiting out the union. They don't have the resources to move the whole company to less a union friendly part of the country.

Unhappy with UAW wages? Buy a share of stock, go on down to the shareholders meeting and ask those highly educated, highly compensated execs just what the hell they were thinking!

You think a 50% wage cut for those overpaid UAW members is good for the country? You think they've had it coming for a long time and it's about damn time?

Well, tell me this. Where does it stop?

Someday soon people making $20 an hour are going to find their job now pays $14 an hour. Take it or leave it. Those making $14 now will be making $9, and those making $7 are going to making minimum wage. The only thing that is going to stop corporate greed in the US is the economic collapse of the country. The signs are all there. The vast overwhelming majority of Americans are living on Credit Cards and paycheck to paycheck on top of it. The country itself, the government itself, is operating on borrowed money.

You think you're going to be immune to this downward wage spiral? You're dreaming.

GM has already said that one of the positives of the Delphi situation is that they expect to pay less for the components now. I'll bet that sent a shiver down the spine of the Deplhi execs. Less?!? But, but, but we were going to charge you the same!

Your company is going to see workers at big corporations being paid less and they are going to want a piece of that action. It will be irresistable to them. They're making plans already.

If you're not worried about the reduction in your standard of living I envy you. You're a dumb motherf***er, but I still envy you.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: boomerang
Every contract that was "won" by the UAW was agreed to in totality by management.

Does the UAW deserve some bashing, yes. Does management deserve some bashing, yes. It took both parties to hammer out the agreement. The UAW hasn't had the upper hand with management in a contract negotiation for decades. How can you be critical of the UAW for winning better wages and benefits for the workers it represents? Address some of that anger at management. They are fully and wholly responsible for the mess the company is in.

Remember, they agreed to the wage and benefit packages that they now say are leading to their undoing. They decide what ugly cars they produce. GM bought stake in Fiat that cost the company billions. They decided to make a bunch of SUV's and trucks that the American public no longer wants. I could go on and on.

Unhappy with UAW wages? Buy a share of stock, go on down to the shareholders meeting and ask those highly educated, highly compensated execs just what the hell they were thinking!

You think a 50% wage cut for those overpaid UAW members is good for the country? You think they've had it coming for a long time and it's about damn time?

Well, tell me this. Where does it stop?

Someday soon people making $20 an hour are going to find their job now pays $14 an hour. Take it or leave it. Those making $14 now will be making $9, and those making $7 are going to making minimum wage. The only thing that is going to stop corporate greed in the US is the economic collapse of the country. The signs are all there. The vast overwhelming majority of Americans are living on Credit Cards and paycheck to paycheck on top of it. The country itself, the government itself, is operating on borrowed money.

You think you're going to be immune to this downward wage spiral? You're dreaming.

GM has already said that one of the positives of the Delphi situation is that they expect to pay less for the components now. I'll bet that sent a shiver down the spine of the Deplhi execs. Less?!? But, but, but we were going to charge you the same!

Your company is going to see workers at big corporations being paid less and they are going to want a piece of that action. It will be irresistable to them. They're making plans already.

If you're not worried about the reduction in your standard of living I envy you. You're a dumb motherf***er, but I still envy you.

Well done, boomerang.
Thanks!!!

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Most of our Help Desk was just outsourced...

Don't you feel like a proud American to send American jobs to India?

I don't know how people like this can sleep at night.

I wasn't high enough up the chain to make the call directly. However, I am all for shipping off the dead-weight (perhaps like yourself, all full of gusto here, but what are you really doing that has an impact on anything) that will help my dollar in the global economy.

Personally, I don't think in terms of America, Canada, Europe, etc...we all share the same freaking planet and the sooner those borders are dropped, the sooner the world would be a better place for everyone.

I am not about rewarding those with no skillsets just because 'they need to make a living too'.

On a side note, I went to college twice...currently working towards various certifications. I donate often, both time and money. I see many people getting a free ride yet do not give anything back at all.

Å

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Most of our Help Desk was just outsourced...

Don't you feel like a proud American to send American jobs to India?

I don't know how people like this can sleep at night.

I wasn't high enough up the chain to make the call directly. However, I am all for shipping off the dead-weight (perhaps like yourself, all full of gusto here, but what are you really doing that has an impact on anything) that will help my dollar in the global economy.

Personally, I don't think in terms of America, Canada, Europe, etc...we all share the same freaking planet and the sooner those borders are dropped, the sooner the world would be a better place for everyone.

I am not about rewarding those with no skillsets just because 'they need to make a living too'.

On a side note, I went to college twice...currently working towards various certifications. I donate often, both time and money. I see many people getting a free ride yet do not give anything back at all.

Å

Now I've seen it all.
I'm ashamed to even be in the same thread as you.
Hopefully your vision of how things should be will come full circle and eat your lunch first.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: shilala

Now I've seen it all.
I'm ashamed to even be in the same thread as you.
Hopefully your vision of how things should be will come full circle and eat your lunch first.

so you personally feel we should stay broken up as countries?

I hope you become more educated eventually and understand the how's and why's of this.

Most people that do have a problem with outsourcing or denial of high paying salaries for minial work are those directly affected.

The fact is when jobs are outsourced and the cost of goods goes down, those that do affect the economy buy more.

Here in Palm Beach County, having a huge local call center makes no sense. Property is extremely expensive here (the average home pretty much will not qualify many times for a conforming loan). Filling up an office space with border-line minimum wage workers has your rent being more than their wages. If they are doing nothing other than things that can be solved via a phone call, ship them some place else.

What do you do for a living?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally posted by: mchammer
One thing that should be said is that it's not the 70s and 80s anymore and there are plenty of very good US cars avalable now. They may not be quite as good as the Japanese cars, but for those who are not car people, the difference is not too big. The Chevy Cobalt is supposed to be ok, and the Ford 500 looks nice. All of the Cadillacs are nice too. The Ford Fusion looks very good too, although it is assembled in Mexico. The Chevy Equinox looks ok, but the engine is made in China.

Also, what is so bad about people in China and India finally being able to have a chance for a job? The West does not have a birthright to having a better standard of living than everyone else. Its better for the world if everyone can find work.

You sir, are kidding right? I pop the hood of my dad's taurus (2001) and compare it to my 95 Corolla and the quality of plastic parts and electrical is night and day differences. After 3 years of driving the taurus' tape and insulation on firewalls are falling off, and the electrical enclosures are not molded correctly and need electrical tape to keep it together. Both cars are build in US.

The day I will consider american branded car is the day they build good stuff without using electrical tapes to hold boxes together.