Gm's old Delphi parts division wants a 68% pay cut for its UAW employees..

[PandaBear]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
I just don't think people understand how serious this situation is. People deserve to be treated fair- why do you all get mad at a factory worker making $25.00/hr? You should ask yourself why you are not making $25.00/hr. All I read here is jealousy. This will start a cycle that other business' will follow and eventually trickle in all jobs. This is not good- I don't care if you are a white color or not.

You think it is fair for an engineer with college education and non paid over time to make less than an assembly line worker with no education before their over time?

Both in the same industry, both in America.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: PandaBear
You sir, are kidding right? I pop the hood of my dad's taurus (2001) and compare it to my 95 Corolla and the quality of plastic parts and electrical is night and day differences. After 3 years of driving the taurus' tape and insulation on firewalls are falling off, and the electrical enclosures are not molded correctly and need electrical tape to keep it together. Both cars are build in US.

The day I will consider american branded car is the day they build good stuff without using electrical tapes to hold boxes together.

I don't think the tape is intended to hold the Ford fasteners together as they clip together. It is used to insulate, and also keep DIY'ers from touching stuff. The tape does suck after a few years.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: PandaBear

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
I just don't think people understand how serious this situation is. People deserve to be treated fair- why do you all get mad at a factory worker making $25.00/hr? You should ask yourself why you are not making $25.00/hr. All I read here is jealousy. This will start a cycle that other business' will follow and eventually trickle in all jobs. This is not good- I don't care if you are a white color or not.

You think it is fair for an engineer with college education and non paid over time to make less than an assembly line worker with no education before their over time?

Both in the same industry, both in America.

What's fair got to do with it? The assembly line workers got the their price because they pushed for it and management thinks it's a good deal for the company so they agreed to the terms. Maybe the engineers should think about organizing and find out what their true worth to their employers really is.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ironwing

What's fair got to do with it? The assembly line workers got the their price because they pushed for it and management thinks it's a good deal for the company so they agreed to the terms. Maybe the engineers should think about organizing and find out what their true worth to their employers really is.

You have to be trolling here. Unions got assembly line workers their price due to extortion tactics basically (plus unions get their better dues). Management would have loved to have them all walk, but with pickets and union laws it makes it not cost productive.

The bigger the production profits in a given day = the easier unions can ask almost whatever they want.

I think Unions had their place prior to all the law and institutions we have now monitoring workplace safety (OSHA, etc). Prior to them, a worker dying, getting maimed, or simply not paid and told to take a walk or come back tomorrow was commonplace.

 

[EMPshockwave82]

Originally posted by: DougK62
Unions are killing American business.

Poor managers that treat employees like crap is why the united state's businesses are failing.

If workers were treated fairly and compensated for work that is done there would be no need for unions

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: ironwing

What's fair got to do with it? The assembly line workers got the their price because they pushed for it and management thinks it's a good deal for the company so they agreed to the terms. Maybe the engineers should think about organizing and find out what their true worth to their employers really is.

I think Unions had their place prior to all the law and institutions we have now monitoring workplace safety (OSHA, etc). Prior to them, a worker dying, getting maimed, or simply not paid and told to take a walk or come back tomorrow was commonplace.

Who, in the name of all that is good and Holy, do you think protects those very things now?
Your Fairy Godmother?
George Bush?
Business?

Riddle me this...
When the top 20% of wage earners are gone, what do you think is going to happen to the labor market?
Why do you think non-union part hanging monkeys are paid the wage they are paid?
Because that's what the market bears.

Why do you think you make what you make?
What drives the labor market? Walmart wages?
Yes, it's getting there.

The divisionism in this country becomes greater and greater, and the middle class shrinks in direct proportion to the loss of high paying union jobs.
I'm sure you're very aware of that.

What is it that you think is going to insolate your wage from the ever-decreasing median income?
Good will and merit?

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: ironwing

What's fair got to do with it? The assembly line workers got the their price because they pushed for it and management thinks it's a good deal for the company so they agreed to the terms. Maybe the engineers should think about organizing and find out what their true worth to their employers really is.

You have to be trolling here. Unions got assembly line workers their price due to extortion tactics basically (plus unions get their better dues). Management would have loved to have them all walk, but with pickets and union laws it makes it not cost productive.

The bigger the production profits in a given day = the easier unions can ask almost whatever they want.

I think Unions had their place prior to all the law and institutions we have now monitoring workplace safety (OSHA, etc). Prior to them, a worker dying, getting maimed, or simply not paid and told to take a walk or come back tomorrow was commonplace.

If management signed contracts contrary to the interests of the shareholders they would be in violation of the law. Since management did sign the contracts and the shareholders didn't sue, the contracts must be in the best interests of the shareholders.

Again, maybe if engineers organized they would be treated better by management. I understand the professional values that keep engineers from organizing but if management is not upholding its end of the professional relationship then maybe it is time for engineers to reconsider.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: EMPshockwave82
Poor managers that treat employees like crap is why the united state's businesses are failing.

If workers were treated fairly and compensated for work that is done there would be no need for unions

You think it's better elsewhere?

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: shilala

Now I've seen it all.
I'm ashamed to even be in the same thread as you.
Hopefully your vision of how things should be will come full circle and eat your lunch first.

so you personally feel we should stay broken up as countries?
Absolutely.

I hope you become more educated eventually and understand the how's and why's of this.
I do too, thanks for caring.

Most people that do have a problem with outsourcing or denial of high paying salaries for minial work are those directly affected.
Or those who have a conscience, or care about their families, their friend's families, other Americans, and their plight.

The fact is when jobs are outsourced and the cost of goods goes down, those that do affect the economy buy more.
Yes, they buy more low cost, low quaility goods made by people who live in squaler. Common sense dictates that's all they can afford.

Here in Palm Beach County, having a huge local call center makes no sense. Property is extremely expensive here (the average home pretty much will not qualify many times for a conforming loan). Filling up an office space with border-line minimum wage workers has your rent being more than their wages. If they are doing nothing other than things that can be solved via a phone call, ship them some place else.
I can't even bear to comment on that.


What do you do for a living?
I'm a union pipefitter, I own 2 businesses and co-own another, among a number of other things.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: shilala
Who, in the name of all that is good and Holy, do you think protects those very things now?
Your Fairy Godmother?
George Bush?
Business?

Riddle me this...
When the top 20% of wage earners are gone, what do you think is going to happen to the labor market?
Why do you think non-union part hanging monkeys are paid the wage they are paid?
Because that's what the market bears.

Why do you think you make what you make?
What drives the labor market? Walmart wages?
Yes, it's getting there.

The divisionism in this country becomes greater and greater, and the middle class shrinks in direct proportion to the loss of high paying union jobs.
I'm sure you're very aware of that.

What is it that you think is going to insolate your wage from the ever-decreasing median income?
Good will and merit?

I have no idea WTF you are talking about. Unions have no impact on anyone's job I know of.

I make what I make because I work for a Fortune 500. We do deal with Unions, but they hurt our bottom line, not enhance it.

My wage is 'insolate'd from median income due to I have an actual skillset gained by years of experience that is needed in the line of work I do. The way it is supposed to be.

Only in America do people come out of High School and expect to be handed a house and the keys to an Escalade.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: shilala
Or those who have a conscience, or care about their families, their friend's families, other Americans, and their plight.

Right, and we all realize you are buying into the 'Welfare' mentality. A high paid skill-less job is the same as someone not working and getting welfare.

What stops anyone on the street from taking a few week to a couple year training course to be 'union' material?

You brought up George Bush, but you doing so are calling the kettle black with that statement.

You are a biased view though, if the union market crumbled so would your income...otherwise why would you still be a pipefitter yet own 3 'successful' businesses? Unless of course they are all pipe-fitting businesses.

Originally posted by: shilala
I'm a union pipefitter, I own 2 businesses and co-own another, among a number of other things.

I have learned almost every 'Union' job myself to do. May not be able to get it 'permitted' everytime though, but I have not made mistakes either.

I have seen some pipefitters making $100+/hr...in some high risk positions, sure it's warranted.

again saying one owns 2 businesses and co-owns another are worthless statements. I can go down to the tax office and open up 10 companies tomorrow.

 

[dartworth]

because pipefitting is the best part time job in the world...

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
I have no idea WTF you are talking about. Unions have no impact on anyone's job I know of.

I make what I make because I work for a Fortune 500. We do deal with Unions, but they hurt our bottom line, not enhance it.

My wage is 'insolate'd from median income due to I have an actual skillset gained by years of experience that is needed in the line of work I do. The way it is supposed to be.

Only in America do people come out of High School and expect to be handed a house and the keys to an Escalade.

Is your disagreement with the fact that the companies pay union folks too much or do you believe that engineers should be paid more? If the former, that is between the employers and the unions, I don't see a point in objecting. If the later then how does lowering unionized laborers wages help you?

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: alkemyst
I have no idea WTF you are talking about. Unions have no impact on anyone's job I know of.

I make what I make because I work for a Fortune 500. We do deal with Unions, but they hurt our bottom line, not enhance it.

My wage is 'insolate'd from median income due to I have an actual skillset gained by years of experience that is needed in the line of work I do. The way it is supposed to be.

Only in America do people come out of High School and expect to be handed a house and the keys to an Escalade.

Is your disagreement with the fact that the companies pay union folks too much or do you believe that engineers should be paid more? If the former, that is between the employers and the unions, I don't see a point in objecting. If the later then how does lowering unionized laborers wages help you?

It's neither....I believe that if someone is willing to do the same job for less they should be a candidate.

It's up to the 'worker' to stand out.

If it's the later my dollar will go farther, and perhaps help more american companies.

As it is I buy very little locally other than groceries. I have tried to give local businesses a chance, but none will match prices that mostly other american companies will do.

As it is very little of my dollar is coming to my state.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: shilala
Who, in the name of all that is good and Holy, do you think protects those very things now?
Your Fairy Godmother?
George Bush?
Business?

Riddle me this...
When the top 20% of wage earners are gone, what do you think is going to happen to the labor market?
Why do you think non-union part hanging monkeys are paid the wage they are paid?
Because that's what the market bears.

Why do you think you make what you make?
What drives the labor market? Walmart wages?
Yes, it's getting there.

The divisionism in this country becomes greater and greater, and the middle class shrinks in direct proportion to the loss of high paying union jobs.
I'm sure you're very aware of that.

What is it that you think is going to insolate your wage from the ever-decreasing median income?
Good will and merit?

I have no idea WTF you are talking about.
That's painfully clear.
Unions have no impact on anyone's job I know of.
That's clear, as well. I imagine your ignorance weighs heavily in your willingness to ship jobs overseas.

I make what I make because I work for a Fortune 500. We do deal with Unions, but they hurt our bottom line, not enhance it.
Of course paying decent wages hurts the bottom line. It'll also eat heavily into the margin of profit. It may even chew into your ceo's payday. I'm super okay with that.

My wage is 'insolate'd from median income due to I have an actual skillset gained by years of experience that is needed in the line of work I do. The way it is supposed to be.
I have a number of marketable skillsets that I've gone through great pains to acquire. Skills are a commodity. If your company runs into a person with an equal skillset that they can hire for half the money, what do you think will happen to your job?
Regadless of whether or not you realize that your job is not insolated from market driven wages, it isn't. Mine isn't, and I've been a union member for almost 20 years.

Only in America do people come out of High School and expect to be handed a house and the keys to an Escalade.
I never expected that, nor desired it. Neither did anyone in my generation, aside from a few deluded females and a couple spoiled kids, and one kid that got dropped on his head. From what I've seen of the young people around here, they don't think in those terms either. I don't think they're busting their asses to get through college because they gave up on someone handing them keys to their house and Escalade.

I'd like to submit that your view of the people here also weighs heavily into the ease in which you accept their economy being sent to India.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: dartworth
because pipefitting is the best part time job in the world...

Damn straight, brother.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Unions have no impact on anyone's job I know of.
That's clear, as well. I imagine your ignorance weighs heavily in your willingness to ship jobs overseas.

Ignorance? that's you. Your definition of jobs is having your bagboy rake in $50k for just showing up for work.

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst
I make what I make because I work for a Fortune 500. We do deal with Unions, but they hurt our bottom line, not enhance it.
Of course paying decent wages hurts the bottom line. It'll also eat heavily into the margin of profit. It may even chew into your ceo's payday. I'm super okay with that.

Paying Joe Blow even a mid 5 figure salary is not a decent wage, it's foolhardy. Our CEO has reinvested since 1959. Never has paid a dividend either. Our stock has gone from single digits, split about 8 times and is now in the double digits still.

We keep growing.

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst
My wage is 'insolate'd from median income due to I have an actual skillset gained by years of experience that is needed in the line of work I do. The way it is supposed to be.
I have a number of marketable skillsets that I've gone through great pains to acquire. Skills are a commodity. If your company runs into a person with an equal skillset that they can hire for half the money, what do you think will happen to your job?
Regadless of whether or not you realize that your job is not insolated from market driven wages, it isn't. Mine isn't, and I've been a union member for almost 20 years.

I didn't say my wages were isolated from a market driven economy, you did. Like I said, as long as I stay in front of the game, I am in it. I can't come home from work, stick my hand down my pants and watch 'The Simpsons', and expect to get a raise the next day.

I am ALL FOR THAT!

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Only in America do people come out of High School and expect to be handed a house and the keys to an Escalade.
I never expected that, nor desired it. Neither did anyone in my generation, aside from a few deluded females and a couple spoiled kids, and one kid that got dropped on his head. From what I've seen of the young people around here, they don't think in those terms either. I don't think they're busting their asses to get through college because they gave up on someone handing them keys to their house and Escalade.

I'd like to submit that your view of the people here also weighs heavily into the ease in which you accept their economy being sent to India.

A few deluded females and spoiled kids? Let me guess why....that's funny you even brought that up.

How many truly bust their asses through college? College is not a hard goal. Being lazy in college makes it that way though. Most of those I knew growing up, never went to college....nor went blue collar either.

However, I never said my experience in life is the norm.

So what is your experience with females and kids, that you feel the need to vent it here?

Also I never said it was 'only' india...are you also working a Help Desk somewhere?

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Unions have no impact on anyone's job I know of.
That's clear, as well. I imagine your ignorance weighs heavily in your willingness to ship jobs overseas.

Ignorance? that's you. Your definition of jobs is having your bagboy rake in $50k for just showing up for work.

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst
I make what I make because I work for a Fortune 500. We do deal with Unions, but they hurt our bottom line, not enhance it.
Of course paying decent wages hurts the bottom line. It'll also eat heavily into the margin of profit. It may even chew into your ceo's payday. I'm super okay with that.

Paying Joe Blow even a mid 5 figure salary is not a decent wage, it's foolhardy. Our CEO has reinvested since 1959. Never has paid a dividend either. Our stock has gone from single digits, split about 8 times and is now in the double digits still.

We keep growing.

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst
My wage is 'insolate'd from median income due to I have an actual skillset gained by years of experience that is needed in the line of work I do. The way it is supposed to be.
I have a number of marketable skillsets that I've gone through great pains to acquire. Skills are a commodity. If your company runs into a person with an equal skillset that they can hire for half the money, what do you think will happen to your job?
Regadless of whether or not you realize that your job is not insolated from market driven wages, it isn't. Mine isn't, and I've been a union member for almost 20 years.

I didn't say my wages were isolated from a market driven economy, you did. Like I said, as long as I stay in front of the game, I am in it. I can't come home from work, stick my hand down my pants and watch 'The Simpsons', and expect to get a raise the next day.

I am ALL FOR THAT!

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Only in America do people come out of High School and expect to be handed a house and the keys to an Escalade.
I never expected that, nor desired it. Neither did anyone in my generation, aside from a few deluded females and a couple spoiled kids, and one kid that got dropped on his head. From what I've seen of the young people around here, they don't think in those terms either. I don't think they're busting their asses to get through college because they gave up on someone handing them keys to their house and Escalade.

I'd like to submit that your view of the people here also weighs heavily into the ease in which you accept their economy being sent to India.

A few deluded females and spoiled kids? Let me guess why....that's funny you even brought that up.

How many truly bust their asses through college? College is not a hard goal. Being lazy in college makes it that way though. Most of those I knew growing up, never went to college....nor went blue collar either.

However, I never said my experience in life is the norm.

So what is your experience with females and kids, that you feel the need to vent it here?

Also I never said it was 'only' india...are you also working a Help Desk somewhere?

Wow, it's worse than I thought.
I surrender.

 

[tec699]

good. give the jobs to the hard working Mexicans.

Good damn lazy people.

 

[SKoprowski]

Wow - I like how arrogance breeds entitlement. You make me sad Alkemyst. You just don't see the big picture.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
Wow - I like how arrogance breeds entitlement. You make me sad Alkemyst. You just don't see the big picture.

Not seeing the big picture is the entire problem with unions. They'll cut their nose off to spite their face. They'll bite the hand that feeds them. They don't care. All they see is the narrow view - how much money can labor get out of the company. Talk about seeing the big picture!

 

[SKoprowski]

Nice genralization- you want us to start catagorizing all you white collar, right wing greedy snobs who think you are better than the people who you expect to purchase your goods?

 

[desy]

Unions exist now because they get a cut of every employees cheque and are their own burocracy.
The way they stay in power is to create more unionized workers so they collect more dues from higher paychecks. Unions in certain sectors now are not what was the strength of the early unions was.
They better see the writing on the wall and I would hope they would give up a lot of the 'fringe' benefits and keep the bulk of their wage.

Healthy lifestyle should keep a lot of the medical costs down for non catostrophic disease.
If they don't they will find themselves without a job and medical!

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
Wow - I like how arrogance breeds entitlement. You make me sad Alkemyst. You just don't see the big picture.

Arrogance? WTF you talking about, that is exactly the issue with unions and worker's that have the mentality they are 'owed' a decent living, even if it's a task a person with less than a high school education can accomplish.

I am all for going back to the days where if you didn't excel and prove yourself, you are not going to make it in the world.

There are too many non-union low, middle and upper level workers also just free-loading and mooching off other's work. These too should be replaced.

However; the BIG PICTURE, is going to be a world based economy sooner or later, these artificial walls countries put up are getting thinner and thinner.

Those that are not seeing this and simply attacking me (the idiot's method to win an argument) are either missing the point, don't understand the point, or so biased that fact escapes them.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
Nice genralization- you want us to start catagorizing all you white collar, right wing greedy snobs who think you are better than the people who you expect to purchase your goods?

blah blah blah, show me how the UAW has willingly worked to help keep the company that feeds them alive?