Gm's old Delphi parts division wants a 68% pay cut for its UAW employees..

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Triumph

blah blah blah, show me how the UAW has willingly worked to help keep the company that feeds them alive?

QFT

 

[PandaBear]

Originally posted by: ironwing
What's fair got to do with it? The assembly line workers got the their price because they pushed for it and management thinks it's a good deal for the company so they agreed to the terms. Maybe the engineers should think about organizing and find out what their true worth to their employers really is.

The original statement is we need to be fair to assembly line worker. I made a statement to show that it is not fair no matter how you look at it.

Sure, it is the business between GM/Delphi and UAW, and they are now both going down because of it. It has nothing to do with me as long as I don't buy their products, because I don't think with their situation they will build anything good quality. Very true, nothing to do with me and other potential buyers.

In the end, they deserve what they get.

Engineers are always free to move between companies because they are hired on their skills, you got more skills and your company is not promoting you? go to another company and get yourselves a promotion you deserved (thats how many engineers are making well over 120k a year during the good times). You don't get a raise in a union contract no matter how good you are, and in the end you don't get the pay you deserved (or you get the pay you don't deserved).

So, why work hard at all?

 

[SKoprowski]

My father retired from Chrysler after 36 years. He was a skilled tradesman- not a production worker. He worked in an unairconditioned/partially heated factory, got 3 fingers severed and had numerous back problems and had to have his thumb joint fused because of degenration caused by repetitive movement. He worked on furnaces that brazed transmission parts- he has scars from burnt marks on his arms. Back in the early 80's he took a pay cut to save Chrysler- all the UAW employees did. It wasn't 63%- more like 15%. That utimately saved Chrysler. I don't want to hear how the UAW is greedy. He has been laid off numerous times while trying to support his family. Do you guys know what it is like to not have money for clothes and food? or have a X-mas where the family gift exchange is limitied to a $5.00 gift because most of my extended family worked for the Big 3 and were all laid off at the same time? He retired making $27.00 an hour. It took 35 years to reach that. He managed to put my brother and I through private schools and college. I was raised by my parents not a daycare. My father worked hard- I don't want to hear this crap about people not deserving their pay. They do. As with any job their are always slackers and people who take advantage of the system- but don't stereotype all UAW workers as being lazy. I consider $25.00/hr a living wage- not an elaborate benefit.

Tell me- what do you think of the Delphi management (who make between $800,000-$1,000,000 per year) taking a 10% cut? I take that as an insult.

 

[desy]

That was yesterday
Today is different

 

[PandaBear]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
My father retired from Chrysler after 36 years. He was a skilled tradesman- not a production worker. He worked in an unairconditioned/partially heated factory, got 3 fingers severed and had numerous back problems and had to have his thumb joint fused because of degenration caused by repetitive movement. He worked on furnaces that brazed transmission parts- he has scars from burnt marks on his arms. Back in the early 80's he took a pay cut to save Chrysler- all the UAW employees did. It wasn't 63%- more like 15%. That utimately saved Chrysler. I don't want to hear how the UAW is greedy. He has been laid off numerous times while trying to support his family. Do you guys know what it is like to not have money for clothes and food? or have a X-mas where the family gift exchange is limitied to a $5.00 gift because most of my extended family worked for the Big 3 and were all laid off at the same time? He retired making $27.00 an hour. It took 35 years to reach that. He managed to put my brother and I through private schools and college. I was raised by my parents not a daycare. My father worked hard- I don't want to hear this crap about people not deserving their pay. They do. As with any job their are always slackers and people who take advantage of the system- but don't stereotype all UAW workers as being lazy. I consider $25.00/hr a living wage- not an elaborate benefit.

Tell me- what do you think of the Delphi management (who make between $800,000-$1,000,000 per year) taking a 10% cut? I take that as an insult.

You are not the only one grown up in poverty. My mom work machine shop and janitor job afterhour and my dad continuously work 12 hr day and weekend. Grown up with an entire family living in a 8'x8' room and sharing everything else with another family, grandma ended up staying with us because her home was burnt in a fire and she lived in our living room (shared with another family) for half a year.

But that has nothing to do with union contract today. If the company is not profitable you cannot expect it to give way high wages to its worker, it is not sustainable, period. If there is no motivation to work hard and professional then people slack off or abuse the benefits, I have worked with union worker before and the experience is not pleasant because of that, but we are stuck with them because of it is easier to give them something else to do on the side than do the job we hire them to do.

If UAW want to keep their contract that way they need better member governing, by monitoring their own members' work ethics and punish (expell) them to preserve the good apples.

 

[redgtxdi]

This whole thing just has me flabbergasted!!

What a freakin' mess!!!!!!!!!


I am of the mindset that unions have had their time.

Somebody needs to reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally get rid of the Teamster's Union. Once that sucker goes.........they'll fall like dominoes.



I *do* have a genuine concern for the treatment of workers within large companies where unions still reside, however, here's the reason I'm not so worried as I would have been 20years ago.


Workers are in control now. You can sue anybody for damn near ANYTHING anymore. If there are problems in the work environment.......get a lawyer.

Seeing as we all lose tons of money to unions & lawyers, we might as well eliminate one 'cuz we certainly don't need both!

My .02!!


P.S. If anybody has an update on this madness, I'd love to know where all these 25,000 employees currently stand in terms of employment!!! Maybe all the American car companies need to go belly up???????? (Doh!!)

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Triumph

blah blah blah, show me how the UAW has willingly worked to help keep the company that feeds them alive?

QFT

Let's start with today and work backwards, shall we?
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...1_N18341237_RTRIDST_0_AUTOS-GM-UAW.XML

The UAW is also working on a lot more concessions hand in hand with GM.
They have accepted the entire burden of cutting GM's 1.2 billion loss of last year.

Now, I don't suppose you two would change your tune anyways if you actually read and knew what was going on with GM and the UAW, but could we at least agree that you'll STFU when you have no idea what you're talking about?

 

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Triumph

blah blah blah, show me how the UAW has willingly worked to help keep the company that feeds them alive?

QFT

Let's start with today and work backwards, shall we?
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...1_N18341237_RTRIDST_0_AUTOS-GM-UAW.XML

The UAW is also working on a lot more concessions hand in hand with GM.
They have accepted the entire burden of cutting GM's 1.2 billion loss of last year.

Now, I don't suppose you two would change your tune anyways if you actually read and knew what was going on with GM and the UAW, but could we at least agree that you'll STFU when you have no idea what you're talking about?

I read articles on this matter on a daily basis due to local coverage of our plant here and first hand accounts from friends who work at the Lockport plant.

UAW was faced with either taking cut backs or being totally cut out of the picture. So they really didn't do anything until they were faced with a complete loss.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
My father retired from Chrysler after 36 years. He was a skilled tradesman- not a production worker. He worked in an unairconditioned/partially heated factory, got 3 fingers severed and had numerous back problems and had to have his thumb joint fused
because of degenration caused by repetitive movement. He worked on furnaces that brazed transmission parts- he has scars from burnt marks on his arms. Back in the early 80's he took a pay cut to save Chrysler- all the UAW employees did. It wasn't 63%- more like 15%. That utimately saved Chrysler. I don't want to hear how the UAW is greedy. He has been laid off numerous times while trying to support his family. Do you guys know what it is like to not have money for clothes and food? or have a X-mas where the family gift exchange is limitied to a $5.00 gift because most of my extended family worked for the Big 3 and were all laid off at the same time? He retired making $27.00 an hour. It took 35 years to reach that. He managed to put my brother and I through private schools and college. I was raised by my parents not a daycare. My father worked hard- I don't want to hear this crap about people not deserving their pay. They do. As with any job their are always slackers and people who take advantage of the system- but don't stereotype all UAW workers as being lazy. I consider $25.00/hr a living wage- not an elaborate benefit.

Tell me- what do you think of the Delphi management (who make between $800,000-$1,000,000 per year) taking a 10% cut? I take that as an insult.

oh please no. This was the reason things changed.

My father is highly successful, he grew up p!ss poor, so did my mother who married him coming from wealth. Their 'highlight' of the week when I was born was getting something to put on their noodles. Now from this I profited, I was taught just about everything I need to do myself (plumbing, electric, car maintenance, etc)....

Your $25k is not a long shot IF YOU HAVE SKILLS...if a bagboy can do it, then you deserve minimum wage.

that's the end of story and unfortunately you are living in the past.

 

[alkemyst]

I am going to add....I am struggled to buy a house next year (a few months)...median is about $400k+ here now (major city)...last month only 50 homes sold under mid 300k.

My brother and parents are in those kind of home markets...I am making upper 5 figures and gag at the prices.

I went through quite a bit of BS along the way....

I still stay there is no free ride, and no matter how much crap you had happen to you...why should anyone else pay for it?

A father of ten getting hit by a truck is a bit of a different matter in this.

A father of ten not getting hit by a big $$$ truck contract is not.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Triumph

blah blah blah, show me how the UAW has willingly worked to help keep the company that feeds them alive?

QFT

Let's start with today and work backwards, shall we?
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...1_N18341237_RTRIDST_0_AUTOS-GM-UAW.XML

The UAW is also working on a lot more concessions hand in hand with GM.
They have accepted the entire burden of cutting GM's 1.2 billion loss of last year.

Now, I don't suppose you two would change your tune anyways if you actually read and knew what was going on with GM and the UAW, but could we at least agree that you'll STFU when you have no idea what you're talking about?

I knew a few that worked in a company that worked with GM plants actually about 2 years ago...

They had robots doing things which was great....

however; you still had to pay the union guy to watch the robot.

You are not telling us how a "UNION" contract has so many no-shows, and so many non-workers (sitters).

I still say there is no such thing as a free lunch...no matter how much you think you are worth.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Workers are in control now. You can sue anybody for damn near ANYTHING anymore. If there are problems in the work environment.......get a lawyer.

There are a lot of nice foreign health care stocks that don't deal in BS lawsuits as well as companies.

Sueing because you are a mental midget is an AMERICAN thing. I am 100% AMERICAN. My head spins with this. I could have 'CASHED' in quite a few times, especially in Hurricane recovery.

I look at it as part of my work. I know the risks. Only a retard would claim they didn't know them.

 

[ruffilb]

Retards often win cases...

 

[teddyv]

I wish everyone could see how extravagantly the UAW, Teamsters, and other major Unions spend their money in Washington. Unions generally have the most elaborate offices on some of the priciest real estate, and make up 9 of the top 10 givers of political money of all time (over $200 Million of your dues since just 1989.) Oh, and they throw great parties.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: teddyv
I wish everyone could see how extravagantly the UAW, Teamsters, and other major Unions spend their money in Washington. Unions generally have the most elaborate offices on some of the priciest real estate, and make up 9 of the top 10 givers of political money of all time (over $200 Million of your dues since just 1989.) Oh, and they throw great parties.

Interesting.

I hear union bosses still get paid even when union workers strike.

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: teddyv
I wish everyone could see how extravagantly the UAW, Teamsters, and other major Unions spend their money in Washington. Unions generally have the most elaborate offices on some of the priciest real estate, and make up 9 of the top 10 givers of political money of all time (over $200 Million of your dues since just 1989.) Oh, and they throw great parties.

Interesting.

I hear union bosses still get paid even when union workers strike.

Well the "bosses" are usually still working in negotiations and such. Being a business agent or an officer of a union isn't a cake job.

It does have its "perks"...but show me a management position that doesn't

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Triumph

blah blah blah, show me how the UAW has willingly worked to help keep the company that feeds them alive?

QFT

Let's start with today and work backwards, shall we?
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...1_N18341237_RTRIDST_0_AUTOS-GM-UAW.XML

The UAW is also working on a lot more concessions hand in hand with GM.
They have accepted the entire burden of cutting GM's 1.2 billion loss of last year.

Now, I don't suppose you two would change your tune anyways if you actually read and knew what was going on with GM and the UAW, but could we at least agree that you'll STFU when you have no idea what you're talking about?

I knew a few that worked in a company that worked with GM plants actually about 2 years ago...

They had robots doing things which was great....

however; you still had to pay the union guy to watch the robot.

You are not telling us how a "UNION" contract has so many no-shows, and so many non-workers (sitters).

I still say there is no such thing as a free lunch...no matter how much you think you are worth.

The link I provided proved your last perception completely wrong.

Would you be willing to consider that a number of your other preconcieved notions are incorrect?

If you wish to hate Unions, God bless you, that's your right.
At least learn what goes on inside.

On the robot...
That robot is likely doing the work of 5 or 6 men. Those are 5 or 6 jobs that the union lost. My guess is that they agreed to concede to the robot installation on the base that they were allowed to tend it.
In my local, we have a "sitter" position. It's called the stress machine.
Someone sits all night long and watches the temperature go up and down on this machine.
It's a boring awful job that could be replaced by a smarter machine and a transmitter.
That machine does not exist, so we still post a man to the machine.
The job could be done just as well by an eight year old.
It's always a sticking point, but we've held onto the work, and will continue to fight for it.

If we lose that work, the job will still exist, only to be done by someone else at a much lower rate. Our local will also lose the benefits generated by that position.
The money saved will simply make the owner's pile of money larger.

What would you do? Cut your own throat to make someone else richer?

Point is, if you don't know the whole picture, you end up with an uninformed notion of how union/owner interactions take place.

 

[DivideBYZero]

DEY TUK URR JUURBS!

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Triumph

blah blah blah, show me how the UAW has willingly worked to help keep the company that feeds them alive?

QFT

Let's start with today and work backwards, shall we?
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...1_N18341237_RTRIDST_0_AUTOS-GM-UAW.XML

The UAW is also working on a lot more concessions hand in hand with GM.
They have accepted the entire burden of cutting GM's 1.2 billion loss of last year.

Now, I don't suppose you two would change your tune anyways if you actually read and knew what was going on with GM and the UAW, but could we at least agree that you'll STFU when you have no idea what you're talking about?

I knew a few that worked in a company that worked with GM plants actually about 2 years ago...

They had robots doing things which was great....

however; you still had to pay the union guy to watch the robot.

You are not telling us how a "UNION" contract has so many no-shows, and so many non-workers (sitters).

I still say there is no such thing as a free lunch...no matter how much you think you are worth.

The link I provided proved your last perception completely wrong.

Would you be willing to consider that a number of your other preconcieved notions are incorrect?

If you wish to hate Unions, God bless you, that's your right.
At least learn what goes on inside.

On the robot...
That robot is likely doing the work of 5 or 6 men. Those are 5 or 6 jobs that were made redundant by progress and necessitated by competition(the union lost). My guess is that they agreed to concede to the robot installation on the base that they were allowed to tend it.
In my local, we have a "sitter" position. It's called the stress machine.
Someone sits all night long and watches the temperature go up and down on this machine.
It's a boring awful job that could be replaced by a smarter machine and a transmitter.
That machine does not exist, so we still post a man to the machine.(Yes it does exist, but we would rather do a piss boring job till we retire than find a real one)
The job could be done just as well by an eight year old.
It's always a sticking point, but we've held onto the work, and will continue to fight for it.

If we lose that work, the job will still exist, only to be done by someone else at a much lower rate. Our local will also lose the benefits generated by that position.
The money saved will simply make the owner's pile of money larger.

What would you do? Cut your own throat to make someone else richer?

Point is, if you don't know the whole picture, you end up with an uninformed notion of how union/owner interactions take place.

Fixed.

IMHO, union workers are at best misrepresented by most unions and at worst a bunch of work shy losers hanging on to the last carriage of the gravy train.

This is my opinion as a non-union worker, who fights for his own rights, for his own pay and feels good about it.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally posted by: shilala

The link I provided proved your last perception completely wrong.

Would you be willing to consider that a number of your other preconcieved notions are incorrect?

If you wish to hate Unions, God bless you, that's your right.
At least learn what goes on inside.

On the robot...
That robot is likely doing the work of 5 or 6 men. Those are 5 or 6 jobs that the union lost. My guess is that they agreed to concede to the robot installation on the base that they were allowed to tend it.
In my local, we have a "sitter" position. It's called the stress machine.
Someone sits all night long and watches the temperature go up and down on this machine.
It's a boring awful job that could be replaced by a smarter machine and a transmitter.
That machine does not exist, so we still post a man to the machine.
The job could be done just as well by an eight year old.
It's always a sticking point, but we've held onto the work, and will continue to fight for it.

If we lose that work, the job will still exist, only to be done by someone else at a much lower rate. Our local will also lose the benefits generated by that position.
The money saved will simply make the owner's pile of money larger.

What would you do? Cut your own throat to make someone else richer?

Point is, if you don't know the whole picture, you end up with an uninformed notion of how union/owner interactions take place.

You probably have no idea how technologies progress in the last 10 years. The last robot I build for the semiconductor industry and the equipment it is put in is networked and managed in a control room by servers with scripts and recipes. Human is not allowed except during emergency and services to reduce contamination.

The software that runs the FAB has intelligence that based on the inspection from the QA downstream to self calibrate the machine upstream in 20 minutes of work time. Each payload is sorted among others so if a pattern of failure occur it can be easily isolated to which machine being the problem.

Of course, semiconductor industry is not unionized and therefore not suffering the problems auto industry have.

When cost for EVERYONE goes down, competition will drive down the price and it is the consumer, not the business owner, that pockets the $. For a monopoly, the owner pockets the $. I don't think GM and the OEMs that feed it are in monopoly (more like extinction).


But, instead of fighting for those 8 year old jobs, why not have the union loan $ to workers to go to Phoenix/Heald/ITT and get training/certificates to service those machines, and make more $. That will be more beneficial than just keep fighting for deadwood jobs and gets everyone goes down together.

 

[teddyv]

>The money saved will simply make the owner's pile of money larger

OR - allow the corporation to put more money into R&D, allow the corporation to lower the price, allow the corporation to invest in a more efficient manufacturing process, even allow the corporation to develop products for export.

>if you don't know the whole picture, you end up with an uninformed notion of how union/owner interactions take place.

Exactly.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: shilala

The link I provided proved your last perception completely wrong.

Would you be willing to consider that a number of your other preconcieved notions are incorrect?

If you wish to hate Unions, God bless you, that's your right.
At least learn what goes on inside.

On the robot...
That robot is likely doing the work of 5 or 6 men. Those are 5 or 6 jobs that the union lost. My guess is that they agreed to concede to the robot installation on the base that they were allowed to tend it.
In my local, we have a "sitter" position. It's called the stress machine.
Someone sits all night long and watches the temperature go up and down on this machine.
It's a boring awful job that could be replaced by a smarter machine and a transmitter.
That machine does not exist, so we still post a man to the machine.
The job could be done just as well by an eight year old.
It's always a sticking point, but we've held onto the work, and will continue to fight for it.

If we lose that work, the job will still exist, only to be done by someone else at a much lower rate. Our local will also lose the benefits generated by that position.
The money saved will simply make the owner's pile of money larger.

What would you do? Cut your own throat to make someone else richer?

Point is, if you don't know the whole picture, you end up with an uninformed notion of how union/owner interactions take place.

Regardless of your link I have a family member as well as the Fortune 500 I work for that have to deal with this kind of nonsense.

What are you talking about going on inside? Kickbacks, political vote/donation negotions, etc? I am aware of those as well.

I do agree that most will take 'why slit your own throat' line. However, that isn't doing the other guy any good and is rather harming him.

I have a different work ethic though. I make a nice living, I do things outside my 'box'. I could have walked over some along the way and be making a bit more money...I can still choose to do that. However, personally I look at I work in a community whether it's a team of 5, a department of 50, or my neighbors on the block/city/county/state/country/planet.

If everyone did a bit more for everyone else I am sure most would profit more. A Union is all about doing what's right for 'me/us'