Originally posted by: rahvin
More of a "Japanesse" car is built in the US than 90% of what detroit produces. That "US" car you bought was produced 80% in Canada, Mexico and Brazil. So in all your preaching about exporting jobs to Asia, remember you are the one exporting the jobs outside america while the person buying "japanesse" is supporting hundereds of thousands of jobs in kentucky, california and other production sites.
PERCENTAGE OF U.S./CANADIAN PARTS CONTENT IN NEW VEHICLES
The value-weighted average U.S./Canadian parts content in new passenger vehicles registered in the United States, by model year, was as follows:
1995 1998
Big 3 - 89% 84%
Transplants 47% 59%
Imports from overseas 4% 4%
Originally posted by: Zebo
Exactly. You're paid what you're worth always in a free market negotiable envrioment such as USA. Problem is we are not competeing in free market. All our trading partners are either labor busting communist or heavily socialistic.
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: sygyzy
I am not sure if you got the news bulletin or not but the point of this is that UAQ employees are OVERPAID
Right, we are in the world of $600,000 "starter homes" and you think $27 is underpaid. One word. Bullsh1t. It would seem obvious they are underpaid if as you guys claim the workmanship is inferior since no unhappy worker turn good product.
Originally posted by: Zebo
Misinformation. And I try and only buy 100% USA AALA labeled cars good luck find any transplants with anything above 70%.
The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) Reauthorization Act of 1998, amended the AALA in two significant ways.
The first was a change in the so-called "roll-up, roll-down" provision. The original AALA specified that, for purposes of determining the U.S. or Canadian percentage of parts content, any equipment from outside suppliers that was at least 70 percent U.S. or Canadian was valued at 100 percent U.S./Canadian. Any equipment below 70 percent, even if only slightly below 70 percent, was valued at 0 percent. The NHTSA Reauthorization Act of 1998 amended the AALA to eliminate the "roll-down" portion of this provision. Any equipment under 70 percent is now valued to the nearest 5 percent.
This change is particularly significant for parts made in the United States by outside suppliers using foreign components. An example would be a company producing parts using components imported from Japan. Under the old rules, if the U.S./Canadian content of the part was 48 percent, the part would be valued at 0 percent U.S./Canadian content. Under the new rules, if the U.S./Canadian content of the part was 48 percent, it would be valued as 50 percent U.S./Canadian content.
Originally posted by: PandaBear
$24 is a lot of $ for turning screws in the mid-west. $12 is too little, maybe $16 or $17 is about right.
If you want to serve your country give your $ away to charity instead of some unskilled union worker. Give to scholarship or something.
Screw those crappy american manufacture, let them go out of business and learn to build stuff reliabily. (p.s. I own a 2000 Taurus and is not impressed with the reliability)
lol! Amazing how effective the union's propaganda is, eh?Originally posted by: Ktulu
You're an idiot. Here's a list of GM factories spanning North America:
link
only a small percentage of GM's products are produced in Mexico and Canada.
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I'm from Flint Michigan, the birthplace of the UAW, and where Delphi is among the last companies keeping Flint alive.
$27.00 an hour plus bennies, PLUS paying full wages to laid-off workers, PLUS extremely generous health benefits with $5.00 co-pays, is an absolute embarrassment to the UAW and the American worker. These people turn screws and put parts in boxes, for crying out loud. And in spite of making high wages for decades and getting tuition assistance, only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the employees will have spent a plum nickel on furthering their eduction or gaining new skills vs. mass consumption of luxury items on which UAW workers are notorious for pissing away their substantial incomes.
68% pay cut and slashing their benefits would just about bring their wages in-line with the true value of their labor in a competitive market. The UAW has proven again and again it has absolutely no interest in reason or even acknowledging that it owes its very existence to the competitive health of the company. It has sacrificed its members and their livelihoods on the alter of intransigent ideology time and again.
This is the reason that Flint Michigan and other militant union towns will NEVER again be communities to which ANY sane company or industry would want to bring a single good paying job.lol! Amazing how effective the union's propaganda is, eh?Originally posted by: Ktulu
You're an idiot. Here's a list of GM factories spanning North America:
link
only a small percentage of GM's products are produced in Mexico and Canada.
Contrary to what union propagandist Michael Moore would have the public believe, Flint lost more jobs to other high-paying plants in the United States and Canada than to Mexico or foreign countries. For example, 15 years ago, you couldn't go in public without seeing a UAW jacket proudly advertising Flint as the home of the Buick Lesabre, but the Lesabre is no longer assembled there. Did Buick move the Lesabre to Mexico? Nope, the Lesabre was moved 45 miles down the road to Lake Orion. Why?
Because the bargaining unit at Lake Orion understood that you cannot continue to build automobiles in the 1990s as though it were still 1920, with near 100% utilization of manual labor, particularly when your foreign competitors were building state-of-the-art manufacturing plants with heavy utilization of technology.
However, the bargaining units in Flint (and other militant union towns) saw technology and modernization as an evil that would result in jobs lost to automation and computers. Less jobs = less money for the union. It used GM's need to be more competitive as leverage to get more obscenely generous concessions from GM.
Its not just auto and steel workers. Michigan newspapers did stories on IBM's nightmare trying to modernize the City of Detroit during the mid-to-late 90s. Many didn't even know how to use a computer mouse, and these were OFFICE workers! On top of that, employees refused to learn anything new, filing grievances with the union. When they were told they didn't have a choice, they would act like 5 year olds, pouting and copping major attitudes with the IT instructors. Basically, they were trying to make the process so difficult and expensive, the city would give up trying and let them keep doing their jobs as though it were 1970.
IBM employees commented they had never seen anything like it, and IBM is a huge IT contractor in public sector. They never did get all the changes in, and the ones they did make ended-up costing three times the original estimate, largely because of systemic employee resistance and union obstruction.
And lest we forget the Detroit public school system, which the State of Michigan had to place under the governor's executive control by an act of the legislature, largely because unions had ruined the school system, benefitting themselves at the expense of children and the public interest. Detroit actually unionized school administrators, not just teachers and school workers. Unions are supposed to serve as a balance to administration. When administration is unionized, too, its akin to the inmates running the asylum. The state put an end to that, too, but not before long-term damage was done that will take a generation or more to reverse, with tens of millions of dollars still unaccounted for. Similar stories have happened in Philadelphia, Cleveland, and most other union-controlled communiities.
No, its not just auto, steel, and industrial unions. Its an ideological and cultural problem with unions themselves. The hatred unions have for modernization and change make the Taliban look like a bunch of free-spirited progressives.
Originally posted by: tom3
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I'm from Flint Michigan, the birthplace of the UAW, and where Delphi is among the last companies keeping Flint alive.
Contrary to what union propagandist Michael Moore would have the public believe, Flint lost more jobs to other high-paying plants in the United States and Canada than to Mexico or foreign countries. For example, 15 years ago, you couldn't go in public without seeing a UAW jacket proudly advertising Flint as the home of the Buick Lesabre, but the Lesabre is no longer assembled there. Did Buick move the Lesabre to Mexico? Nope, the Lesabre was moved 45 miles down the road to Lake Orion. Why?
Because the bargaining unit at Lake Orion understood that you cannot continue to build automobiles in the 1990s as though it were still 1920, with near 100% utilization of manual labor, particularly when your foreign competitors were building state-of-the-art manufacturing plants with heavy utilization of technology.
However, the bargaining units in Flint (and other militant union towns) saw technology and modernization as an evil that would result in jobs lost to automation and computers. Less jobs = less money for the union. It used GM's need to be more competitive as leverage to get more obscenely generous concessions from GM.
Wow.. that sheds some new light to my view of the whole situation. I did not know most of the information you shared with us. Thanks!
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I'm from Flint Michigan, the birthplace of the UAW, and where Delphi is among the last companies keeping Flint alive.
This is the reason that Flint Michigan and other militant union towns will NEVER again be communities to which ANY sane company or industry would want to bring a single good paying job.lol!Originally posted by: Ktulu
Here's a list of GM factories spanning North America:
link
only a small percentage of GM's products are produced in Mexico and Canada.
Amazing how effective the union's propaganda is, eh?
Contrary to what union propagandist Michael Moore would have the public believe, Flint lost more jobs to other high-paying plants in the United States and Canada than to Mexico or foreign countries. For example, 15 years ago, you couldn't go in public without seeing a UAW jacket proudly advertising Flint as the home of the Buick Lesabre, but the Lesabre is no longer assembled there. Did Buick move the Lesabre to Mexico? Nope, the Lesabre was moved 45 miles down the road to Lake Orion. Why?
Because the bargaining unit at Lake Orion understood that you cannot continue to build automobiles in the 1990s as though it were still 1920, with near 100% utilization of manual labor, particularly when your foreign competitors were building state-of-the-art manufacturing plants with heavy utilization of technology.
However, the bargaining units in Flint (and other militant union towns) saw technology and modernization as an evil that would result in jobs lost to automation and computers. Less jobs = less money for the union. It used GM's need to be more competitive as leverage to get more obscenely generous concessions from GM.
Its not just auto and steel workers. Michigan newspapers did stories on IBM's nightmare trying to modernize the City of Detroit during the mid-to-late 90s. Many didn't even know how to use a computer mouse, and these were OFFICE workers! On top of that, employees refused to learn anything new, filing grievances with the union. When they were told they didn't have a choice, they would act like 5 year olds, pouting and copping major attitudes with the IT instructors. Basically, they were trying to make the process so difficult and expensive, the city would give up trying and let them keep doing their jobs as though it were 1970.
IBM employees commented they had never seen anything like it, and IBM is a huge IT contractor in public sector. They never did get all the changes in, and the ones they did make ended-up costing three times the original estimate, largely because of systemic employee resistance and union obstruction.
And lest we forget the Detroit public school system, which the State of Michigan had to place under the governor's executive control by an act of the legislature, largely because unions had bankrupted the school system, benefitting themselves at the expense of children and education. Detroit actually unionized school administrators as well, not just teachers and school workers. Unions are supposed to serve as a balance to administration. When administration is unionized, too, its akin to the inmates running the asylum. The state put an end to that, too, but not before long-term damage was done that will take a generation or more to reverse, with tens of millions of dollars still unaccounted for, not to mention thousands of children who will be cheated out of better schools. Similar stories are found in Philadelphia, Cleveland, and most other union-controlled cities.
No, its not just auto, steel, and industrial unions. Its an ideological and cultural problem with unions themselves. The hatred unions have for modernization and change make the Taliban look like a bunch of free-spirited progressives by comparison.
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I'm from Flint Michigan, the birthplace of the UAW, and where Delphi is among the last companies keeping Flint alive.
$27.00 an hour plus bennies, PLUS paying full wages to laid-off workers, PLUS extremely generous health benefits with $5.00 co-pays, is an absolute embarrassment to the UAW and the American worker. These people turn screws and put parts in boxes, for crying out loud. And in spite of making high wages for decades and getting tuition assistance, only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the employees will have spent a plum nickel on furthering their eduction or gaining new skills vs. mass consumption of luxury items on which UAW workers are notorious for pissing away their substantial incomes.
68% pay cut and slashing their benefits would just about bring their wages in-line with the true value of their labor in a competitive market. The UAW has proven again and again it has absolutely no interest in reason or even acknowledging that it owes its very existence to the competitive health of the company. It has sacrificed its members and their livelihoods on the alter of intransigent ideology time and again.
This is the reason that Flint Michigan and other militant union towns will NEVER again be communities to which ANY sane company or industry would want to bring a single good paying job.lol! Amazing how effective the union's propaganda is, eh?Originally posted by: Ktulu
You're an idiot. Here's a list of GM factories spanning North America:
link
only a small percentage of GM's products are produced in Mexico and Canada.
Contrary to what union propagandist Michael Moore would have the public believe, Flint lost more jobs to other high-paying plants in the United States and Canada than to Mexico or foreign countries. For example, 15 years ago, you couldn't go in public without seeing a UAW jacket proudly advertising Flint as the home of the Buick Lesabre, but the Lesabre is no longer assembled there. Did Buick move the Lesabre to Mexico? Nope, the Lesabre was moved 45 miles down the road to Lake Orion. Why?
Because the bargaining unit at Lake Orion understood that you cannot continue to build automobiles in the 1990s as though it were still 1920, with near 100% utilization of manual labor, particularly when your foreign competitors were building state-of-the-art manufacturing plants with heavy utilization of technology.
However, the bargaining units in Flint (and other militant union towns) saw technology and modernization as an evil that would result in jobs lost to automation and computers. Less jobs = less money for the union. It used GM's need to be more competitive as leverage to get more obscenely generous concessions from GM.
Its not just auto and steel workers. Michigan newspapers did stories on IBM's nightmare trying to modernize the City of Detroit during the mid-to-late 90s. Many didn't even know how to use a computer mouse, and these were OFFICE workers! On top of that, employees refused to learn anything new, filing grievances with the union. When they were told they didn't have a choice, they would act like 5 year olds, pouting and copping major attitudes with the IT instructors. Basically, they were trying to make the process so difficult and expensive, the city would give up trying and let them keep doing their jobs as though it were 1970.
IBM employees commented they had never seen anything like it, and IBM is a huge IT contractor in public sector. They never did get all the changes in, and the ones they did make ended-up costing three times the original estimate, largely because of systemic employee resistance and union obstruction.
And lest we forget the Detroit public school system, which the State of Michigan had to place under the governor's executive control by an act of the legislature, largely because unions had bankrupted the school system, benefitting themselves at the expense of children and education. Detroit actually unionized school administrators as well, not just teachers and school workers. Unions are supposed to serve as a balance to administration. When administration is unionized, too, its akin to the inmates running the asylum. The state put an end to that, too, but not before long-term damage was done that will take a generation or more to reverse, with tens of millions of dollars still unaccounted for, not to mention thousands of children who will be cheated out of better schools. Similar stories are found in Philadelphia, Cleveland, and most other union-controlled cities.
No, its not just auto, steel, and industrial unions. Its an ideological and cultural problem with unions themselves. The hatred unions have for modernization and change make the Taliban look like a bunch of free-spirited progressives by comparison.
So now we've resorted to personal attacks? What a cocksucking excuse for an Elite member.Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I'm from Flint Michigan, the birthplace of the UAW, and where Delphi is among the last companies keeping Flint alive.
$27.00 an hour plus bennies, PLUS paying full wages to laid-off workers, PLUS extremely generous health benefits with $5.00 co-pays, is an absolute embarrassment to the UAW and the American worker. These people turn screws and put parts in boxes, for crying out loud. And in spite of making high wages for decades and getting tuition assistance, only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the employees will have spent a plum nickel on furthering their eduction or gaining new skills vs. mass consumption of luxury items on which UAW workers are notorious for pissing away their substantial incomes.
68% pay cut and slashing their benefits would just about bring their wages in-line with the true value of their labor in a competitive market. The UAW has proven again and again it has absolutely no interest in reason or even acknowledging that it owes its very existence to the competitive health of the company. It has sacrificed its members and their livelihoods on the alter of intransigent ideology time and again.
This is the reason that Flint Michigan and other militant union towns will NEVER again be communities to which ANY sane company or industry would want to bring a single good paying job.lol! Amazing how effective the union's propaganda is, eh?Originally posted by: Ktulu
You're an idiot. Here's a list of GM factories spanning North America:
link
only a small percentage of GM's products are produced in Mexico and Canada.
Contrary to what union propagandist Michael Moore would have the public believe, Flint lost more jobs to other high-paying plants in the United States and Canada than to Mexico or foreign countries. For example, 15 years ago, you couldn't go in public without seeing a UAW jacket proudly advertising Flint as the home of the Buick Lesabre, but the Lesabre is no longer assembled there. Did Buick move the Lesabre to Mexico? Nope, the Lesabre was moved 45 miles down the road to Lake Orion. Why?
Because the bargaining unit at Lake Orion understood that you cannot continue to build automobiles in the 1990s as though it were still 1920, with near 100% utilization of manual labor, particularly when your foreign competitors were building state-of-the-art manufacturing plants with heavy utilization of technology.
However, the bargaining units in Flint (and other militant union towns) saw technology and modernization as an evil that would result in jobs lost to automation and computers. Less jobs = less money for the union. It used GM's need to be more competitive as leverage to get more obscenely generous concessions from GM.
Its not just auto and steel workers. Michigan newspapers did stories on IBM's nightmare trying to modernize the City of Detroit during the mid-to-late 90s. Many didn't even know how to use a computer mouse, and these were OFFICE workers! On top of that, employees refused to learn anything new, filing grievances with the union. When they were told they didn't have a choice, they would act like 5 year olds, pouting and copping major attitudes with the IT instructors. Basically, they were trying to make the process so difficult and expensive, the city would give up trying and let them keep doing their jobs as though it were 1970.
IBM employees commented they had never seen anything like it, and IBM is a huge IT contractor in public sector. They never did get all the changes in, and the ones they did make ended-up costing three times the original estimate, largely because of systemic employee resistance and union obstruction.
And lest we forget the Detroit public school system, which the State of Michigan had to place under the governor's executive control by an act of the legislature, largely because unions had bankrupted the school system, benefitting themselves at the expense of children and education. Detroit actually unionized school administrators as well, not just teachers and school workers. Unions are supposed to serve as a balance to administration. When administration is unionized, too, its akin to the inmates running the asylum. The state put an end to that, too, but not before long-term damage was done that will take a generation or more to reverse, with tens of millions of dollars still unaccounted for, not to mention thousands of children who will be cheated out of better schools. Similar stories are found in Philadelphia, Cleveland, and most other union-controlled cities.
No, its not just auto, steel, and industrial unions. Its an ideological and cultural problem with unions themselves. The hatred unions have for modernization and change make the Taliban look like a bunch of free-spirited progressives by comparison.
Arnt you the 30 year old still living with your parents on social security dole? How dare you judge what people are worth? And comparing them to talibhan You're a POS what have you ever acomplished in your life? Ever worked an honest day?
Originally posted by: TStep
you guys argue this as if it were black and white, and it is not.
GM and the UAW should take a look at the demise of Bethlehem Steel and learn from that colossal failure. America operates under a competitive business environment in a dynamic and worldwide economy. We are not isolationists, nor should we be. Although foreign steel played a factor in the downfall of Bethlehem Steel, they are just a competitor as any other. The mini mills that sprang up in America were likely a stronger competitor.
The Delphi-UAW situation is just indicative of the growing problem of the sense of entitlement in this country. I think GM offers a decent product. I currently own two Suva and one full size pickup from each of the three US automakers. Part of me wants to say it's buy-American driven, but in reality, the foreign competition did not offer a product that, IMHO, would sway me to buy foreign.
However, GM is not entitled to my dollar because they are an American company, nor do they deserve protection. Protection would be one of the worst avenues, because it would stifle innovation leading to the death spiral.
The steel industry was and still is protected to a certain degree. We do a fair bit of federally funded work and all contracts specify domestically made steel. Now I challenge anyone to find a readily available domestically made carriage bolt. While trying to find such a product, I found that Canada provides the stiff competition in the nuts-bolts market, not some low-paying, stereotypical, Asian source. Yet, Bethlehem, in a protected market, didn't die because of foreign competition, they died because they were not dynamic enough to survive. Nico, an American mini mill, provides us with most all the steel we use; even on private work that has no domestically made requirement. GM better wake up and and that appropriate action to regain industry leadership like they once had, or their habits will find them right next to Bethlehem Steel in the annals of failed giants.
The UAW needs a wakeup call too. If the UAW feels they are worth the big ching, prove it, that is the American way. But by no means are they entitled to it, nor my dollar spent on their product. Prove it to me. Make the necessary changes that directly affect your future on a personal level. If you can't compete, yet demand higher wages and benefits, a company is going to have to demand more productivity and an attention to quality that will set you apart from the competition.
One thing the membership had better start to realize is that the paycheck is not signed by the UAW, but by GM. No GM - no paycheck, very simple concept. What most people do not realize is that it cost a company 1.5 to 2 times for labor that the worker sees in his/her paycheck. Also read, this and this.
The retirement burden is outstanding. About 120,000 GM employees are supporting 290,000 retirees. As mechanization, which is necessary for survival in the market, increases, those numbers will become even more disproportionate. Again, going back to Bethlehem steel, the retirement burden spawned from negotiations, was not a nail, but more like a spike in Bethlehem's coffin. Everyone is entitled to fair compensation, but this is quite an albatross for GM to carry and remain competitive from a business standpoint.
If both sides continue on, status quo, both sides should invest in some lifejackets.
Originally posted by: Howard
So now we've resorted to personal attacks? What a cocksucking excuse for an Elite member.Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I'm from Flint Michigan, the birthplace of the UAW, and where Delphi is among the last companies keeping Flint alive.
$27.00 an hour plus bennies, PLUS paying full wages to laid-off workers, PLUS extremely generous health benefits with $5.00 co-pays, is an absolute embarrassment to the UAW and the American worker. These people turn screws and put parts in boxes, for crying out loud. And in spite of making high wages for decades and getting tuition assistance, only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the employees will have spent a plum nickel on furthering their eduction or gaining new skills vs. mass consumption of luxury items on which UAW workers are notorious for pissing away their substantial incomes.
68% pay cut and slashing their benefits would just about bring their wages in-line with the true value of their labor in a competitive market. The UAW has proven again and again it has absolutely no interest in reason or even acknowledging that it owes its very existence to the competitive health of the company. It has sacrificed its members and their livelihoods on the alter of intransigent ideology time and again.
This is the reason that Flint Michigan and other militant union towns will NEVER again be communities to which ANY sane company or industry would want to bring a single good paying job.lol! Amazing how effective the union's propaganda is, eh?Originally posted by: Ktulu
You're an idiot. Here's a list of GM factories spanning North America:
link
only a small percentage of GM's products are produced in Mexico and Canada.
Contrary to what union propagandist Michael Moore would have the public believe, Flint lost more jobs to other high-paying plants in the United States and Canada than to Mexico or foreign countries. For example, 15 years ago, you couldn't go in public without seeing a UAW jacket proudly advertising Flint as the home of the Buick Lesabre, but the Lesabre is no longer assembled there. Did Buick move the Lesabre to Mexico? Nope, the Lesabre was moved 45 miles down the road to Lake Orion. Why?
Because the bargaining unit at Lake Orion understood that you cannot continue to build automobiles in the 1990s as though it were still 1920, with near 100% utilization of manual labor, particularly when your foreign competitors were building state-of-the-art manufacturing plants with heavy utilization of technology.
However, the bargaining units in Flint (and other militant union towns) saw technology and modernization as an evil that would result in jobs lost to automation and computers. Less jobs = less money for the union. It used GM's need to be more competitive as leverage to get more obscenely generous concessions from GM.
Its not just auto and steel workers. Michigan newspapers did stories on IBM's nightmare trying to modernize the City of Detroit during the mid-to-late 90s. Many didn't even know how to use a computer mouse, and these were OFFICE workers! On top of that, employees refused to learn anything new, filing grievances with the union. When they were told they didn't have a choice, they would act like 5 year olds, pouting and copping major attitudes with the IT instructors. Basically, they were trying to make the process so difficult and expensive, the city would give up trying and let them keep doing their jobs as though it were 1970.
IBM employees commented they had never seen anything like it, and IBM is a huge IT contractor in public sector. They never did get all the changes in, and the ones they did make ended-up costing three times the original estimate, largely because of systemic employee resistance and union obstruction.
And lest we forget the Detroit public school system, which the State of Michigan had to place under the governor's executive control by an act of the legislature, largely because unions had bankrupted the school system, benefitting themselves at the expense of children and education. Detroit actually unionized school administrators as well, not just teachers and school workers. Unions are supposed to serve as a balance to administration. When administration is unionized, too, its akin to the inmates running the asylum. The state put an end to that, too, but not before long-term damage was done that will take a generation or more to reverse, with tens of millions of dollars still unaccounted for, not to mention thousands of children who will be cheated out of better schools. Similar stories are found in Philadelphia, Cleveland, and most other union-controlled cities.
No, its not just auto, steel, and industrial unions. Its an ideological and cultural problem with unions themselves. The hatred unions have for modernization and change make the Taliban look like a bunch of free-spirited progressives by comparison.
Arnt you the 30 year old still living with your parents on social security dole? How dare you judge what people are worth? And comparing them to talibhan You're a POS what have you ever acomplished in your life? Ever worked an honest day?
Looks like I was right.Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Howard
So now we've resorted to personal attacks? What a cocksucking excuse for an Elite member.Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I'm from Flint Michigan, the birthplace of the UAW, and where Delphi is among the last companies keeping Flint alive.
$27.00 an hour plus bennies, PLUS paying full wages to laid-off workers, PLUS extremely generous health benefits with $5.00 co-pays, is an absolute embarrassment to the UAW and the American worker. These people turn screws and put parts in boxes, for crying out loud. And in spite of making high wages for decades and getting tuition assistance, only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the employees will have spent a plum nickel on furthering their eduction or gaining new skills vs. mass consumption of luxury items on which UAW workers are notorious for pissing away their substantial incomes.
68% pay cut and slashing their benefits would just about bring their wages in-line with the true value of their labor in a competitive market. The UAW has proven again and again it has absolutely no interest in reason or even acknowledging that it owes its very existence to the competitive health of the company. It has sacrificed its members and their livelihoods on the alter of intransigent ideology time and again.
This is the reason that Flint Michigan and other militant union towns will NEVER again be communities to which ANY sane company or industry would want to bring a single good paying job.lol! Amazing how effective the union's propaganda is, eh?Originally posted by: Ktulu
You're an idiot. Here's a list of GM factories spanning North America:
link
only a small percentage of GM's products are produced in Mexico and Canada.
Contrary to what union propagandist Michael Moore would have the public believe, Flint lost more jobs to other high-paying plants in the United States and Canada than to Mexico or foreign countries. For example, 15 years ago, you couldn't go in public without seeing a UAW jacket proudly advertising Flint as the home of the Buick Lesabre, but the Lesabre is no longer assembled there. Did Buick move the Lesabre to Mexico? Nope, the Lesabre was moved 45 miles down the road to Lake Orion. Why?
Because the bargaining unit at Lake Orion understood that you cannot continue to build automobiles in the 1990s as though it were still 1920, with near 100% utilization of manual labor, particularly when your foreign competitors were building state-of-the-art manufacturing plants with heavy utilization of technology.
However, the bargaining units in Flint (and other militant union towns) saw technology and modernization as an evil that would result in jobs lost to automation and computers. Less jobs = less money for the union. It used GM's need to be more competitive as leverage to get more obscenely generous concessions from GM.
Its not just auto and steel workers. Michigan newspapers did stories on IBM's nightmare trying to modernize the City of Detroit during the mid-to-late 90s. Many didn't even know how to use a computer mouse, and these were OFFICE workers! On top of that, employees refused to learn anything new, filing grievances with the union. When they were told they didn't have a choice, they would act like 5 year olds, pouting and copping major attitudes with the IT instructors. Basically, they were trying to make the process so difficult and expensive, the city would give up trying and let them keep doing their jobs as though it were 1970.
IBM employees commented they had never seen anything like it, and IBM is a huge IT contractor in public sector. They never did get all the changes in, and the ones they did make ended-up costing three times the original estimate, largely because of systemic employee resistance and union obstruction.
And lest we forget the Detroit public school system, which the State of Michigan had to place under the governor's executive control by an act of the legislature, largely because unions had bankrupted the school system, benefitting themselves at the expense of children and education. Detroit actually unionized school administrators as well, not just teachers and school workers. Unions are supposed to serve as a balance to administration. When administration is unionized, too, its akin to the inmates running the asylum. The state put an end to that, too, but not before long-term damage was done that will take a generation or more to reverse, with tens of millions of dollars still unaccounted for, not to mention thousands of children who will be cheated out of better schools. Similar stories are found in Philadelphia, Cleveland, and most other union-controlled cities.
No, its not just auto, steel, and industrial unions. Its an ideological and cultural problem with unions themselves. The hatred unions have for modernization and change make the Taliban look like a bunch of free-spirited progressives by comparison.
Arnt you the 30 year old still living with your parents on social security dole? How dare you judge what people are worth? And comparing them to talibhan You're a POS what have you ever acomplished in your life? Ever worked an honest day?
You ever contribute a full brain cell to any thread and you may get there too.
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TStep
you guys argue this as if it were black and white, and it is not.
GM and the UAW should take a look at the demise of Bethlehem Steel and learn from that colossal failure. America operates under a competitive business environment in a dynamic and worldwide economy. We are not isolationists, nor should we be. Although foreign steel played a factor in the downfall of Bethlehem Steel, they are just a competitor as any other. The mini mills that sprang up in America were likely a stronger competitor.
The Delphi-UAW situation is just indicative of the growing problem of the sense of entitlement in this country. I think GM offers a decent product. I currently own two Suva and one full size pickup from each of the three US automakers. Part of me wants to say it's buy-American driven, but in reality, the foreign competition did not offer a product that, IMHO, would sway me to buy foreign.
However, GM is not entitled to my dollar because they are an American company, nor do they deserve protection. Protection would be one of the worst avenues, because it would stifle innovation leading to the death spiral.
The steel industry was and still is protected to a certain degree. We do a fair bit of federally funded work and all contracts specify domestically made steel. Now I challenge anyone to find a readily available domestically made carriage bolt. While trying to find such a product, I found that Canada provides the stiff competition in the nuts-bolts market, not some low-paying, stereotypical, Asian source. Yet, Bethlehem, in a protected market, didn't die because of foreign competition, they died because they were not dynamic enough to survive. Nico, an American mini mill, provides us with most all the steel we use; even on private work that has no domestically made requirement. GM better wake up and and that appropriate action to regain industry leadership like they once had, or their habits will find them right next to Bethlehem Steel in the annals of failed giants.
The UAW needs a wakeup call too. If the UAW feels they are worth the big ching, prove it, that is the American way. But by no means are they entitled to it, nor my dollar spent on their product. Prove it to me. Make the necessary changes that directly affect your future on a personal level. If you can't compete, yet demand higher wages and benefits, a company is going to have to demand more productivity and an attention to quality that will set you apart from the competition.
One thing the membership had better start to realize is that the paycheck is not signed by the UAW, but by GM. No GM - no paycheck, very simple concept. What most people do not realize is that it cost a company 1.5 to 2 times for labor that the worker sees in his/her paycheck. Also read, this and this.
The retirement burden is outstanding. About 120,000 GM employees are supporting 290,000 retirees. As mechanization, which is necessary for survival in the market, increases, those numbers will become even more disproportionate. Again, going back to Bethlehem steel, the retirement burden spawned from negotiations, was not a nail, but more like a spike in Bethlehem's coffin. Everyone is entitled to fair compensation, but this is quite an albatross for GM to carry and remain competitive from a business standpoint.
If both sides continue on, status quo, both sides should invest in some lifejackets.
Entilement? Such as a living wage, nothing wrong with that IMO. Or do you mean these exec's who are "entiled" to billions with thier poor management and accounting tricks? Now you're getting closer. I'm not buying it's the workers every study shows a growing gap between rich and poors wealth since the 1970s. Every salary survey shows incomefor the working clas has remained stagnet for 30 years while the top 5% has trippled. WSJ, NYT and LAT have run articles on it, here is a synopsis: http://www.inequality.org/Summers.htm
As far as the retirement burden. Your article mentioned part of the problem, sellouts buying foreign cars when they say "If GM were making lots of money selling vehicles, this would all be manageable, sort of". For every additional vechile you sell fixed costs go down meaning more profit.
I really think Americans hate their fellow worker. Calling him "entilement attitude". Begrudeging his pay. Laughing at his skill level. Just discusting if you ask me, don't judge till you put yourself in thier shoes. Would you want a tedious job of screwing penels on all day at a high clip? Hell no and you know it, grass is always greener I guess. Japs are smarter. They will never buy a taiwanese TV even if it's half price from the Jap models understanding comparitive advatage and the benefits employed high paid labor provides thoughout thier economy.
Originally posted by: charrison
The only problem is that cars with current technolgy can be built with 90% automation. UAW has fought automation at every step leaving the consumer with higher costs and lower quality(Robots dont get bored screwing on panels). And apparently mainland Japanese car builder are pushing that 90% automation number higher. ANd the reason that they are pushing for more automation is to lower labor costs and increase quality.
UAW continues to price themselves out of job. As you say people are paid what they are worth and when things can be done cheaper they are.
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TStep
you guys argue this as if it were black and white, and it is not.
GM and the UAW should take a look at the demise of Bethlehem Steel and learn from that colossal failure. America operates under a competitive business environment in a dynamic and worldwide economy. We are not isolationists, nor should we be. Although foreign steel played a factor in the downfall of Bethlehem Steel, they are just a competitor as any other. The mini mills that sprang up in America were likely a stronger competitor.
The Delphi-UAW situation is just indicative of the growing problem of the sense of entitlement in this country. I think GM offers a decent product. I currently own two Suva and one full size pickup from each of the three US automakers. Part of me wants to say it's buy-American driven, but in reality, the foreign competition did not offer a product that, IMHO, would sway me to buy foreign.
However, GM is not entitled to my dollar because they are an American company, nor do they deserve protection. Protection would be one of the worst avenues, because it would stifle innovation leading to the death spiral.
The steel industry was and still is protected to a certain degree. We do a fair bit of federally funded work and all contracts specify domestically made steel. Now I challenge anyone to find a readily available domestically made carriage bolt. While trying to find such a product, I found that Canada provides the stiff competition in the nuts-bolts market, not some low-paying, stereotypical, Asian source. Yet, Bethlehem, in a protected market, didn't die because of foreign competition, they died because they were not dynamic enough to survive. Nico, an American mini mill, provides us with most all the steel we use; even on private work that has no domestically made requirement. GM better wake up and and that appropriate action to regain industry leadership like they once had, or their habits will find them right next to Bethlehem Steel in the annals of failed giants.
The UAW needs a wakeup call too. If the UAW feels they are worth the big ching, prove it, that is the American way. But by no means are they entitled to it, nor my dollar spent on their product. Prove it to me. Make the necessary changes that directly affect your future on a personal level. If you can't compete, yet demand higher wages and benefits, a company is going to have to demand more productivity and an attention to quality that will set you apart from the competition.
One thing the membership had better start to realize is that the paycheck is not signed by the UAW, but by GM. No GM - no paycheck, very simple concept. What most people do not realize is that it cost a company 1.5 to 2 times for labor that the worker sees in his/her paycheck. Also read, this and this.
The retirement burden is outstanding. About 120,000 GM employees are supporting 290,000 retirees. As mechanization, which is necessary for survival in the market, increases, those numbers will become even more disproportionate. Again, going back to Bethlehem steel, the retirement burden spawned from negotiations, was not a nail, but more like a spike in Bethlehem's coffin. Everyone is entitled to fair compensation, but this is quite an albatross for GM to carry and remain competitive from a business standpoint.
If both sides continue on, status quo, both sides should invest in some lifejackets.
Entilement? Such as a living wage, nothing wrong with that IMO. Or do you mean these exec's who are "entiled" to billions with thier poor management and accounting tricks? Now you're getting closer. I'm not buying it's the workers every study shows a growing gap between rich and poors wealth since the 1970s. Every salary survey shows incomefor the working clas has remained stagnet for 30 years while the top 5% has trippled. WSJ, NYT and LAT have run articles on it, here is a synopsis: http://www.inequality.org/Summers.htm
As far as the retirement burden. Your article mentioned part of the problem, sellouts buying foreign cars when they say "If GM were making lots of money selling vehicles, this would all be manageable, sort of". For every additional vechile you sell fixed costs go down meaning more profit.
I really think Americans hate their fellow worker. Calling him "entilement attitude". Begrudeging his pay. Laughing at his skill level. Just discusting if you ask me, don't judge till you put yourself in thier shoes. Would you want a tedious job of screwing penels on all day at a high clip? Hell no and you know it, grass is always greener I guess. Japs are smarter. They will never buy a taiwanese TV even if it's half price from the Jap models understanding comparitive advatage and the benefits employed high paid labor provides thoughout thier economy.
The only problem is that cars with current technolgy can be built with 90% automation. UAW has fought automation at every step leaving the consumer with higher costs and lower quality(Robots dont get bored screwing on panels). And apparently mainland Japanese car builder are pushing that 90% automation number higher. ANd the reason that they are pushing for more automation is to lower labor costs and increase quality.
UAW continues to price themselves out of job. As you say people are paid what they are worth and when things can be done cheaper they are.