Works pretty well for the Amish, not a bad idea.Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
The only problem is that cars with current technolgy can be built with 90% automation. UAW has fought automation at every step leaving the consumer with higher costs and lower quality(Robots dont get bored screwing on panels). And apparently mainland Japanese car builder are pushing that 90% automation number higher. ANd the reason that they are pushing for more automation is to lower labor costs and increase quality.
UAW continues to price themselves out of job. As you say people are paid what they are worth and when things can be done cheaper they are.
Yep, who needs decent paying jobs when you can get machines and people that will work for $3hr.
I guess you would like to propose a full employment act and force the removal of any automated manufacturing equipment?
September 18, 2005
More UAW workers bankrupt
Oscar Gray .. Delphi Corp... forklift operator ... gross pay was cut.. to $87,000, and may dip again because Delphi is considering a Chapter 11 filing.
Originally posted by: iversonyin
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: iversonyin
Originally posted by: SampSon
So is it patriotic for American companies to outsource their production to foreign companies?We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.
Is it patriotic that the vast majority of everyday items you purchase are not produced in America (and don't tell me you only buy goods made in America, at this point is it nearly impossible)?
I understand it's a "grey area" but the fact remains that your "patriotic " buying habits are really in vain when faced with a global economy. You can throw the idea of a global economy out the door as much as you want in your head, but the reality is that no one on this planet is going to get anywhere if we all just stick to our own little worlds and hope and prey no one comes in and shatters our false sense of security.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Welcome to a world where America has competitors. *gasp* I know it's hard to imagine, but there are other people out there.
I, as a freeborn American, have the right in a capatalist society to purchase the best product, for the best price, from whomever I choose.
You are suggesting that I throw away my intelligent choices in product just to support a bloated, failing company base, solely because it is "American". I cannot think of a more foolish way to make financial decisions.
The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this, but when someone tries to do something about it, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If it so so hard for these workers to live without their incredibly inflated wages and benefits, why is it that so many others in the country can get along just fine?
I totally agree. Because of these UAW workers, GM and other domestic car manufacturers became less compeitive.
And if you support America by buying only domestic in light of helping American workers, you are wrong. I supposed GM moved crap load of factories out of U.S. By buying domestic, you are only helping GM shareholders and part of their workers.
Toyota and Honda had built factories where GM ditched them.
Buy domestic?
BTW, I drive a Honda that was made in U.S. fuvking A.
I disagree with the UAW being the cause. Even at a discounted price compared to their Japanese counterparts, GM/Ford are having a difficult time competing. Japanese Automakers are able to charge a Premium, while GM/Ford simply can't compete on Quality, Style(argueable), Fuel Economy, and other factors, but even with the wages paid to the UAW GM/Ford could make a Profit, if anyone was willing to buy their products.
The Americans car manufacturers pays $600 more to produce a car on average. You mean those overpaid UAW workers and huge pension plans is not hurting GM business?
Let's get serious here.
Originally posted by: klah
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/19/A01-318432.htm
September 18, 2005
More UAW workers bankrupt
Oscar Gray .. Delphi Corp... forklift operator ... gross pay was cut.. to $87,000, and may dip again because Delphi is considering a Chapter 11 filing.
$45/hr, to drive a forklift, that requires a whopping 10-hour OSHA certification course.
Originally posted by: Aftermath
My point was that, according to the lists on that website, foreign cars pretty much lead and the domestics follow. I don't understand why domests can't lead and start making strides to work out the "apparent" reliability problems that they have, and put a little more effort into their cars. If it's such a big conspiracy to keep the American cars down, then how come they just can't shake it? You would think if enough people really did drive high quality American cars that kept up with foreign ones and cost less new and used, that the popularity of foreign cars would drop off. Funny I still see endless recommendations to go Japanese/European when it comes to people looking to buy an econobox, or a sedan, or a wagon, or now, even a pickup.
Second, I don't have exactly what I want. I bought my car, a Honda Accord wagon, over a Ford Focus wagon, (roughly the same price), because I was able to get the Honda with a manual transmission and a tachometer. The Ford Focus wagon doesn't even come with a manual option, or a tachometer with the automatic. The tachometer doesn't even come standard on Focus models that DO have a manual transmission. (Had to save a few pennies!)
And nearly all of the cars I have ever driven were built in the United States.
My Mercury Grand Marquis, built in the US.
My Toyota Matrix was built in California.
My Honda Accord, I'm not sure, but the sticker on the inside of the door says "Honda of America" "Made in the U.S.A" on it.
As far as my wifes cars:
Her Ford Taurus?
Her AMC Gremlin?
Her Toyota Avalon?
Her Dodge Neon?
The ONLY car between the two of us that we've had that was NOT built in 'merica by 'merican workers, was our Hyundai Santa Fe, which I believe was built in Korea.
Now, would you like to continue informing me about how my preferences are to terrible detriment to the good of my country?
hahaha. ok.Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: tom3
shilala and Zebo, I think your patriotism and your concern for fellow Americans are commendable. However, I respectfully disagree with your views pertaining to buying domestic vehicles.
Several streams of thought (many already mentioned in previous posts):
1. If the current social system and economic structure are flawed, causing US automakers to have to compete at a cost disadvantage, then wouldn't continual support in buying the products prolong the problem? For the sake of this point, let's assume that GM and Nissan cars are equal in quality, reliability, technology used, etc.. Then either cars from both makes sell for the same price, with GM earning much less profit due to higher cost, or GM would have to sell a comparable car for a higher price to generate the same profit per vehicle sold. Neither case is good for GM and GM's future. So back to the question, doesn't buying GM cars under current circumstances essentially result in pumping money to sustain the problematic operation?
Now we must ask whether buying a comparable Nissan at a lower price or buying a better Nissan at the same price help the situation with GM at all. This is of course debatable, but I personally believe that losing market share and revenue forces a company to restructure. If it is impossible for GM to be competitive under current social policies and regulations, then perhaps it takes large corporations such as GM putting pressure on the government for changes to start taking place.
1.5 Ultimately, whom does your money end up supporting more, the engineers, scientists, technicians, assembly line workers? or shareholders and company executives?
2. In today's ever-increasingly global economy, the line between domestic and foreign automakers becomes blurry. When a substantial number of Toyota cars and trucks are designed, engineered, manufactured, sold and maintained right here in the USA, each Toyota vehicle wearing the "foreign" badge provides a living for many American workers. In your stout support for the American work force and economy, is an assembly line worker for Toyota in Alabama any less American than a GM counterpart? Also on a different note, do you consider SAAB domestic now? Jaguars? Volvos? Mazdas?
3. Disregarding what the real world average cost of ownership for a GM or a Ford vehicle may be, let's consider only those in this thread that have said that owning a "domestic" has costed them more money than owning a "foreign" car. Assuming these folks aren't lying (and I have no reason to think that they would), then the money they have saved could mean more goods and services purchased in this U.S. economy, ultimately spurring growth in other sectors.
3.5 Continuing in light of the experience of this limited group of people (which unfortunately mirrors the perception of the population at large in my experience), should we support or reward a lesser performer? It wouldn't be acceptable if an employee is paid more than an equally performing employee simply because of the employer's personal allegiance to the first, right? This may be a moot point to both of you since you do not share the perception that domestic vehicles are of lesser quality.
4. With higher gas prices (though US gas prices are still far cheaper than most other areas in the world), and ever diminishing supplies, GM vehicles simply cannot compete with those from Honda or Toyota when it comes to fuel efficiency. A quick glance at the model line-up and I see that on average GM cars and trucks are 3~5 mpg less than Toyota's. This prompts 2 questions. 1, should consumers be supporting less efficient cars that consumes fuel supplies more rapidly and is more expensive to operate? 2, why hasn't GM been investing in fuel efficient technology? Are fuel consumption and fuel supplies not high enough on the priority list for those making decisions? Do they not care about environment? do they not care about their customers? Because I choose to believe that GM is no less capable in pioneering fuel efficient technology, I have no choice but to think that it has been an oversight in their strategies. Again, should I be supporting GM simply because they are "American"?
5. Like it or not, the increasingly globalizing economy is and will continue to change the way we as a society and as individuals are. When the same product of the same quality can be manufactured in a poorer (lower GDP per capita) country for less, and as a result it becomes less economically viable to produce these products here in the USA, we must adapt. Depending on your views, Walmart may be evil for making cheap products manufactured overseas readily available to the US population, but Walmart also makes it less expensive for Americans to have maintain the same level of living standard. Of course that's no good news to the US textile workers who are out of a job, but unless we want our government to fully implement a protectionist economic strategy (which in my opinion can only weaken our country in the long run), then this outsource and loss of jobs is an inevitable trend. Efforts should be directed towards helping the population to adapt to it, rather than to fight it.
In my opinion we are simply beginning to see the a small tip of the reality that compared to the rest of the world, Americans are simply overpaid for the same jobs. The only edge we are hanging on to involves industries where few is able to do what the US can (microprocessors, pharmaceutical, weapons/defense, the entertainment industry, etc.). But the gap is narrowing and there are fewer and fewer areas where the US can rely on its prowess to stay competitive (case in point, software development outsourcing). Unfortunately, even if we hang on to where we are now, it means loss of jobs and loss of income for millions of working Americans. There are simply not enough jobs requiring skillsets that people from other areas of the world cannot fulfill. Even with those jobs, there simply aren't enough Americans pursuing high enough of an education to fulfill them. The country as a whole needs to find and create niches and edges to create jobs, and to bring up capable workers to take them. Many difficult problems, no simple solutions.
6. On the other hand, we can debate whether a preference for "made in America" and as a result discrimination against things made elsewhere is right and just. (I'm now going into a nagging thought that I struggle with in light of my personal beliefs) This points out a contradiction we harbor within. We would like to think that America, the symbol of freedom, independence, an equal market, equal rights, and democracy to be a society that rewards merits, a society that recognizes what one can do as opposed to who one is. If we had a preference for race, gender, religion, weight, appearance, domestic region of origin (such as north or south US) when it comes to whom we purchase from, we would be sure to keep it a secret and would condemn those that voice them out. But somehow when it is on the scale of the country, it is all okay? Somehow we are able to justify and rationalize the fact that, for instance, a US person makes many times more than a Chinese person doing exactly the same job, or that an American life lost is more valuable than a Iraqi life lost for the exact same cause. Are we promoting a mindset of entitlement? Should we deserve more than the rest of the world simply because we are American? or should we deserve more because of what we do? The essence of patriotism should not be to elevate all those belonging to a country above all others, but it should be to cultivate one's citizens to be able to do better, to do more, and to do justly. In my mind, "buying American" simply because it's American does not point us in the right direction.
/getting off the soapbox now...
[edit] clarified in point 6, region of origin to mean domestic regions.
Well done, Tom.
Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.
People are fallible, and of course, it shows up in their work.
I don't ask the neighbor kid to build me a better paper airplane.
I don't go down the street to the other kid's lemonade stand, and I sure as hell don't order out for Chinese.
I have to support my family, your family, and myself.
It's the right thing to do.
Yes, I understand that the global economy has taken away a lot of opportunity to purchase wholly and truly American made products. Try buying a wholly american television.
The point is not black and white, it's gray.
I have to do the best I can.
I can't buy a european made car.
I can't buy a Japanese made four wheeler.
If the best I can do is buy an American made Honda, then I'm halfways there.
It's sure as hell a lot better than buying a Korean car that just rolled off the boat.
The "Quality" argument is bullshyt. It always has been. American workers have in the past, currently do, and will in the future build anything as well as anyone out there.
My strategy has always been to choose the best from a field of products that has never included Foreign made vehicles.
At one point in my time, there were only two choices: Domestics made in the USA and cars that rolled off the boat. In recent years that has been skewed, making things even more "gray".
I continue to do the best I can.
We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: aeroguy
I have a similar experience with a dodge neon that has less than 100k miles:Originally posted by: Ilmater
Hey, tell your boss I'll buy his product when it's not sh1t. I take IMMACULATE care of my cars, and my current GM car (the LAST in my long line of American cars) currently has not gone past 100k miles and has had the following problems:Originally posted by: Zebo
What do you do for a living? I'll be sure to get it from China next time. Or even better hire an illegal mexican cheap to do it for me.
High beams are terrible. I have to nearly break the stick to get them to come on, and if they don't click just right, they'll snap back somewhere between high- and low- beam, which is off. My headlights turning off, randomly, is NOT a good idea.
My internal lights are stuck in "on" mode, so I had to take out the fuse.
My intake manifold gasket went bad (which is EXTREMELY common for this model of car) because GM decided to skim a few bucks off the to by putting in a worthless gasket. That cost me $800 to replace.
My gas gauge died, which is all KINDS of fun.
They designed the seats in such a way that a part on the car snags your pant legs every time you get out of the car. I had to just cut that piece off of the car.
FVCK American car-makers. If they knew how to make a car that was worth a sh1t, I'd give them my money. When the UAW continued demanding ridiculous things for their members, everything went to sh1t. They then had to find cost savings somewhere else, and that somewhere was parts. Big surprise their cars are sh1t.
New tranny (at 60k!!!)
New head gasket
New axle seal (leaking transmission fluid, I think that's what it was called)
New brake lines
new rear shocks
Numerous blinker problems
Side door bumper molding fell off (I epoxied it back on)
Lately the entire guage cluster only works sometimes (on the bright side, I'm not putting many miles on it)
I know there is more, but I can't think of anything else right now. What a POS.
Ayup, my ex went through all that with her 200 Neon.
She just left it at the dealer but got another Dodge, the Convertible Sebring she always wanted. She'll just keep paying up the ying yang but be happy.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: aeroguy
I have a similar experience with a dodge neon that has less than 100k miles:Originally posted by: Ilmater
Hey, tell your boss I'll buy his product when it's not sh1t. I take IMMACULATE care of my cars, and my current GM car (the LAST in my long line of American cars) currently has not gone past 100k miles and has had the following problems:Originally posted by: Zebo
What do you do for a living? I'll be sure to get it from China next time. Or even better hire an illegal mexican cheap to do it for me.
High beams are terrible. I have to nearly break the stick to get them to come on, and if they don't click just right, they'll snap back somewhere between high- and low- beam, which is off. My headlights turning off, randomly, is NOT a good idea.
My internal lights are stuck in "on" mode, so I had to take out the fuse.
My intake manifold gasket went bad (which is EXTREMELY common for this model of car) because GM decided to skim a few bucks off the to by putting in a worthless gasket. That cost me $800 to replace.
My gas gauge died, which is all KINDS of fun.
They designed the seats in such a way that a part on the car snags your pant legs every time you get out of the car. I had to just cut that piece off of the car.
FVCK American car-makers. If they knew how to make a car that was worth a sh1t, I'd give them my money. When the UAW continued demanding ridiculous things for their members, everything went to sh1t. They then had to find cost savings somewhere else, and that somewhere was parts. Big surprise their cars are sh1t.
New tranny (at 60k!!!)
New head gasket
New axle seal (leaking transmission fluid, I think that's what it was called)
New brake lines
new rear shocks
Numerous blinker problems
Side door bumper molding fell off (I epoxied it back on)
Lately the entire guage cluster only works sometimes (on the bright side, I'm not putting many miles on it)
I know there is more, but I can't think of anything else right now. What a POS.
Ayup, my ex went through all that with her 200 Neon.
She just left it at the dealer but got another Dodge, the Convertible Sebring she always wanted. She'll just keep paying up the ying yang but be happy.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: aeroguy
I have a similar experience with a dodge neon that has less than 100k miles:Originally posted by: Ilmater
Hey, tell your boss I'll buy his product when it's not sh1t. I take IMMACULATE care of my cars, and my current GM car (the LAST in my long line of American cars) currently has not gone past 100k miles and has had the following problems:Originally posted by: Zebo
What do you do for a living? I'll be sure to get it from China next time. Or even better hire an illegal mexican cheap to do it for me.
High beams are terrible. I have to nearly break the stick to get them to come on, and if they don't click just right, they'll snap back somewhere between high- and low- beam, which is off. My headlights turning off, randomly, is NOT a good idea.
My internal lights are stuck in "on" mode, so I had to take out the fuse.
My intake manifold gasket went bad (which is EXTREMELY common for this model of car) because GM decided to skim a few bucks off the to by putting in a worthless gasket. That cost me $800 to replace.
My gas gauge died, which is all KINDS of fun.
They designed the seats in such a way that a part on the car snags your pant legs every time you get out of the car. I had to just cut that piece off of the car.
FVCK American car-makers. If they knew how to make a car that was worth a sh1t, I'd give them my money. When the UAW continued demanding ridiculous things for their members, everything went to sh1t. They then had to find cost savings somewhere else, and that somewhere was parts. Big surprise their cars are sh1t.
New tranny (at 60k!!!)
New head gasket
New axle seal (leaking transmission fluid, I think that's what it was called)
New brake lines
new rear shocks
Numerous blinker problems
Side door bumper molding fell off (I epoxied it back on)
Lately the entire guage cluster only works sometimes (on the bright side, I'm not putting many miles on it)
I know there is more, but I can't think of anything else right now. What a POS.
Ayup, my ex went through all that with her 200 Neon.
She just left it at the dealer but got another Dodge, the Convertible Sebring she always wanted. She'll just keep paying up the ying yang but be happy.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: aeroguy
I have a similar experience with a dodge neon that has less than 100k miles:Originally posted by: Ilmater
Hey, tell your boss I'll buy his product when it's not sh1t. I take IMMACULATE care of my cars, and my current GM car (the LAST in my long line of American cars) currently has not gone past 100k miles and has had the following problems:Originally posted by: Zebo
What do you do for a living? I'll be sure to get it from China next time. Or even better hire an illegal mexican cheap to do it for me.
High beams are terrible. I have to nearly break the stick to get them to come on, and if they don't click just right, they'll snap back somewhere between high- and low- beam, which is off. My headlights turning off, randomly, is NOT a good idea.
My internal lights are stuck in "on" mode, so I had to take out the fuse.
My intake manifold gasket went bad (which is EXTREMELY common for this model of car) because GM decided to skim a few bucks off the to by putting in a worthless gasket. That cost me $800 to replace.
My gas gauge died, which is all KINDS of fun.
They designed the seats in such a way that a part on the car snags your pant legs every time you get out of the car. I had to just cut that piece off of the car.
FVCK American car-makers. If they knew how to make a car that was worth a sh1t, I'd give them my money. When the UAW continued demanding ridiculous things for their members, everything went to sh1t. They then had to find cost savings somewhere else, and that somewhere was parts. Big surprise their cars are sh1t.
New tranny (at 60k!!!)
New head gasket
New axle seal (leaking transmission fluid, I think that's what it was called)
New brake lines
new rear shocks
Numerous blinker problems
Side door bumper molding fell off (I epoxied it back on)
Lately the entire guage cluster only works sometimes (on the bright side, I'm not putting many miles on it)
I know there is more, but I can't think of anything else right now. What a POS.
Ayup, my ex went through all that with her 200 Neon.
She just left it at the dealer but got another Dodge, the Convertible Sebring she always wanted. She'll just keep paying up the ying yang but be happy.
I am the 34 year-old who became disabled at 31 after paying taxes since the age of 15, and now lives with his parents, paying them $500 per month rent from my Social Security Disability checks...yes.Arnt you the 30 year old still living with your parents on social security dole?
I think being a tax-payer for 16 years, and being a former member of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees union, qualifies me just fine.How dare you judge what people are worth? And comparing them to talibhan You're a POS what have you ever acomplished in your life? Ever worked an honest day?
Plus, Japanese unions are gung-ho about competitiveness, productivity, and the quality of their product. They aren't obstructionist ideologues who view hostility between the union and company as a benefit.You can't really compare Japan to the US. In addition to a totally different pattern of industrialization from the west they had the opportunity to start over fresh after WWII with lots of assistence and support from the US. Japanese Industrialization and Economic Growth
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
Update- Dephi files bankruptcy
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...0_AUTOS-DELPHI-BANKRUPTCY-UPDATE-1.XML
Economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts been predicting we are headed to a third world economy for awile. Polly Anna's laughed dimissively as predicted meanwhile, in da real world, this is the biggest manufacutring bankruptcy in history and a sign of things to come if we don't take heed.
And if manufacturing output was actually dropping, there might be cause for concern. H0wever manufacturing output keeps growing.
Manufacturing is NOT growing IN the U.S.
Republicans have been making up phoney numbers since they have total control.
Sure dave.
Manufacturing jobs in the US
Manufacturing jobs have been in decline for the past several decades, however manufacutring output has not. Do you mind that farming only takes 2% of the population, when it took 60-70% of the population a 100 years ago?
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
Update- Dephi files bankruptcy
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...0_AUTOS-DELPHI-BANKRUPTCY-UPDATE-1.XML
Economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts been predicting we are headed to a third world economy for awile. Polly Anna's laughed dimissively as predicted meanwhile, in da real world, this is the biggest manufacutring bankruptcy in history and a sign of things to come if we don't take heed.
And if manufacturing output was actually dropping, there might be cause for concern. H0wever manufacturing output keeps growing.
Manufacturing is NOT growing IN the U.S.
Republicans have been making up phoney numbers since they have total control.
Sure dave.
Manufacturing jobs in the US
Manufacturing jobs have been in decline for the past several decades, however manufacutring output has not. Do you mind that farming only takes 2% of the population, when it took 60-70% of the population a 100 years ago?
yes because it put a lot of mom and pop farms out of business. small business is the backbone of society. to replace small businesses with large corporate entities is not best for the country.
fact is, manufacturing is on the decline. our country's economy is on the decline. you would have to be a pollyanna to not see that.
sure 10 to 15 yrs ago, it was ok when less than 30% of the US population bought foreign cars, but it is a serious problem. and the shortsighted people that say, i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.
do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
Update- Dephi files bankruptcy
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...0_AUTOS-DELPHI-BANKRUPTCY-UPDATE-1.XML
Economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts been predicting we are headed to a third world economy for awile. Polly Anna's laughed dimissively as predicted meanwhile, in da real world, this is the biggest manufacutring bankruptcy in history and a sign of things to come if we don't take heed.
And if manufacturing output was actually dropping, there might be cause for concern. H0wever manufacturing output keeps growing.
Manufacturing is NOT growing IN the U.S.
Republicans have been making up phoney numbers since they have total control.
Sure dave.
Manufacturing jobs in the US
Manufacturing jobs have been in decline for the past several decades, however manufacutring output has not. Do you mind that farming only takes 2% of the population, when it took 60-70% of the population a 100 years ago?
yes because it put a lot of mom and pop farms out of business. small business is the backbone of society. to replace small businesses with large corporate entities is not best for the country.
fact is, manufacturing is on the decline. our country's economy is on the decline. you would have to be a pollyanna to not see that.
sure 10 to 15 yrs ago, it was ok when less than 30% of the US population bought foreign cars, but it is a serious problem. and the shortsighted people that say, i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.
do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.
Your argument is seriously flawed.
a) Manufacturing isn't on the decline, demand is. Thats why these wages aren't sustainable.
b)10-15 years ago only 30% of the cars were Japanses because they didn't appeal to people, they were cheap, unsightly and appealed to people with a budget. These days the roles are reversed.
c) 'i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.' The hypocrisy of this statement is amazing. The USA has prided itself in being a capitalistic cutthroat society, if this wasn't the auto industry, and were a 711 convenience store which offered an inferior product for a high price it would go bankrupt and everyone here would say it deserved it. To keep a dying industry and union afloat when consumerism doesn't show that it should is a someone 'socialist' idealogy.
d) 'do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.'
Yes they knew that they would have to make sacrifices. The UAW has to realize that now. The Japanese have a vastly superior work ethic, higher productivity EVEN at a lower wage as so many people have stated over and over again. Yes ECONOMICS is war, you guys are losing and are blaming it on lack of patriotism? Shove it in your @ss, this has got nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do with bang for buck and quality of a product if the consumer isn't willing to pay X for a product, and the company can't sustain itself because of it.. it should go bankrupt.
I wanted to stay out of this thread because I think you guys (specifically ZEBO and SHILALA) are a bunch of hypocrites.
Proudly Canadian, even our 'socialist' asses know when to beat the sh!t out of a union and to concede our flaws.
Oh by the way, we'd like our 5.5 billion in lumber tariffs back please.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
Update- Dephi files bankruptcy
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...0_AUTOS-DELPHI-BANKRUPTCY-UPDATE-1.XML
Economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts been predicting we are headed to a third world economy for awile. Polly Anna's laughed dimissively as predicted meanwhile, in da real world, this is the biggest manufacutring bankruptcy in history and a sign of things to come if we don't take heed.
And if manufacturing output was actually dropping, there might be cause for concern. H0wever manufacturing output keeps growing.
Manufacturing is NOT growing IN the U.S.
Republicans have been making up phoney numbers since they have total control.
Sure dave.
Manufacturing jobs in the US
Manufacturing jobs have been in decline for the past several decades, however manufacutring output has not. Do you mind that farming only takes 2% of the population, when it took 60-70% of the population a 100 years ago?
yes because it put a lot of mom and pop farms out of business. small business is the backbone of society. to replace small businesses with large corporate entities is not best for the country.
fact is, manufacturing is on the decline. our country's economy is on the decline. you would have to be a pollyanna to not see that.
sure 10 to 15 yrs ago, it was ok when less than 30% of the US population bought foreign cars, but it is a serious problem. and the shortsighted people that say, i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.
do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.
Your argument is seriously flawed.
a) Manufacturing isn't on the decline, demand is. Thats why these wages aren't sustainable.
b)10-15 years ago only 30% of the cars were Japanses because they didn't appeal to people, they were cheap, unsightly and appealed to people with a budget. These days the roles are reversed.
c) 'i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.' The hypocrisy of this statement is amazing. The USA has prided itself in being a capitalistic cutthroat society, if this wasn't the auto industry, and were a 711 convenience store which offered an inferior product for a high price it would go bankrupt and everyone here would say it deserved it. To keep a dying industry and union afloat when consumerism doesn't show that it should is a someone 'socialist' idealogy.
d) 'do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.'
Yes they knew that they would have to make sacrifices. The UAW has to realize that now. The Japanese have a vastly superior work ethic, higher productivity EVEN at a lower wage as so many people have stated over and over again. Yes ECONOMICS is war, you guys are losing and are blaming it on lack of patriotism? Shove it in your @ss, this has got nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do with bang for buck and quality of a product if the consumer isn't willing to pay X for a product, and the company can't sustain itself because of it.. it should go bankrupt.
I wanted to stay out of this thread because I think you guys (specifically ZEBO and SHILALA) are a bunch of hypocrites.
Proudly Canadian, even our 'socialist' asses know when to beat the sh!t out of a union and to concede our flaws.
Oh by the way, we'd like our 5.5 billion in lumber tariffs back please.
pure capitalism works ONLY when you can compete fairly.
most of you out there ACTUALLy think japanese are capitalists. HA. the joke is on you. the japanese are SOCIALISTs, mb not economically but SOCIALLY. they put SOCIETY ahead of the Individual.
as long as that is the case, america will CONTINUE to lose the economic battle vs japan.
america CANNOT be competitive with japan in a pure free market.
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
Update- Dephi files bankruptcy
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...0_AUTOS-DELPHI-BANKRUPTCY-UPDATE-1.XML
Economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts been predicting we are headed to a third world economy for awile. Polly Anna's laughed dimissively as predicted meanwhile, in da real world, this is the biggest manufacutring bankruptcy in history and a sign of things to come if we don't take heed.
And if manufacturing output was actually dropping, there might be cause for concern. H0wever manufacturing output keeps growing.
Manufacturing is NOT growing IN the U.S.
Republicans have been making up phoney numbers since they have total control.
Sure dave.
Manufacturing jobs in the US
Manufacturing jobs have been in decline for the past several decades, however manufacutring output has not. Do you mind that farming only takes 2% of the population, when it took 60-70% of the population a 100 years ago?
yes because it put a lot of mom and pop farms out of business. small business is the backbone of society. to replace small businesses with large corporate entities is not best for the country.
fact is, manufacturing is on the decline. our country's economy is on the decline. you would have to be a pollyanna to not see that.
sure 10 to 15 yrs ago, it was ok when less than 30% of the US population bought foreign cars, but it is a serious problem. and the shortsighted people that say, i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.
do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.
Your argument is seriously flawed.
a) Manufacturing isn't on the decline, demand is. Thats why these wages aren't sustainable.
b)10-15 years ago only 30% of the cars were Japanses because they didn't appeal to people, they were cheap, unsightly and appealed to people with a budget. These days the roles are reversed.
c) 'i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.' The hypocrisy of this statement is amazing. The USA has prided itself in being a capitalistic cutthroat society, if this wasn't the auto industry, and were a 711 convenience store which offered an inferior product for a high price it would go bankrupt and everyone here would say it deserved it. To keep a dying industry and union afloat when consumerism doesn't show that it should is a someone 'socialist' idealogy.
d) 'do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.'
Yes they knew that they would have to make sacrifices. The UAW has to realize that now. The Japanese have a vastly superior work ethic, higher productivity EVEN at a lower wage as so many people have stated over and over again. Yes ECONOMICS is war, you guys are losing and are blaming it on lack of patriotism? Shove it in your @ss, this has got nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do with bang for buck and quality of a product if the consumer isn't willing to pay X for a product, and the company can't sustain itself because of it.. it should go bankrupt.
I wanted to stay out of this thread because I think you guys (specifically ZEBO and SHILALA) are a bunch of hypocrites.
Proudly Canadian, even our 'socialist' asses know when to beat the sh!t out of a union and to concede our flaws.
Oh by the way, we'd like our 5.5 billion in lumber tariffs back please.
pure capitalism works ONLY when you can compete fairly.
most of you out there ACTUALLy think japanese are capitalists. HA. the joke is on you. the japanese are SOCIALISTs, mb not economically but SOCIALLY. they put SOCIETY ahead of the Individual.
as long as that is the case, america will CONTINUE to lose the economic battle vs japan.
america CANNOT be competitive with japan in a pure free market.
Then concede that and make adjustments!
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dartworth
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
Update- Dephi files bankruptcy
http://today.reuters.com/investing/fina...0_AUTOS-DELPHI-BANKRUPTCY-UPDATE-1.XML
Economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts been predicting we are headed to a third world economy for awile. Polly Anna's laughed dimissively as predicted meanwhile, in da real world, this is the biggest manufacutring bankruptcy in history and a sign of things to come if we don't take heed.
And if manufacturing output was actually dropping, there might be cause for concern. H0wever manufacturing output keeps growing.
Manufacturing is NOT growing IN the U.S.
Republicans have been making up phoney numbers since they have total control.
Sure dave.
Manufacturing jobs in the US
Manufacturing jobs have been in decline for the past several decades, however manufacutring output has not. Do you mind that farming only takes 2% of the population, when it took 60-70% of the population a 100 years ago?
yes because it put a lot of mom and pop farms out of business. small business is the backbone of society. to replace small businesses with large corporate entities is not best for the country.
fact is, manufacturing is on the decline. our country's economy is on the decline. you would have to be a pollyanna to not see that.
sure 10 to 15 yrs ago, it was ok when less than 30% of the US population bought foreign cars, but it is a serious problem. and the shortsighted people that say, i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.
do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.
Your argument is seriously flawed.
a) Manufacturing isn't on the decline, demand is. Thats why these wages aren't sustainable.
b)10-15 years ago only 30% of the cars were Japanses because they didn't appeal to people, they were cheap, unsightly and appealed to people with a budget. These days the roles are reversed.
c) 'i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.' The hypocrisy of this statement is amazing. The USA has prided itself in being a capitalistic cutthroat society, if this wasn't the auto industry, and were a 711 convenience store which offered an inferior product for a high price it would go bankrupt and everyone here would say it deserved it. To keep a dying industry and union afloat when consumerism doesn't show that it should is a someone 'socialist' idealogy.
d) 'do you know why we have ALWAYS had a trade imbalance with japan? because the people over there understand that economics is war. they new that even tho their own cars were inferior (at the time, 30 yr ago) that they would have to make sacrifices in order for their country to win this war. as a korean, i hate them for it but also admire them for it. this is something koreans in korea don't seem to understand.'
Yes they knew that they would have to make sacrifices. The UAW has to realize that now. The Japanese have a vastly superior work ethic, higher productivity EVEN at a lower wage as so many people have stated over and over again. Yes ECONOMICS is war, you guys are losing and are blaming it on lack of patriotism? Shove it in your @ss, this has got nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do with bang for buck and quality of a product if the consumer isn't willing to pay X for a product, and the company can't sustain itself because of it.. it should go bankrupt.
I wanted to stay out of this thread because I think you guys (specifically ZEBO and SHILALA) are a bunch of hypocrites.
Proudly Canadian, even our 'socialist' asses know when to beat the sh!t out of a union and to concede our flaws.
Oh by the way, we'd like our 5.5 billion in lumber tariffs back please.
pure capitalism works ONLY when you can compete fairly.
most of you out there ACTUALLy think japanese are capitalists. HA. the joke is on you. the japanese are SOCIALISTs, mb not economically but SOCIALLY. they put SOCIETY ahead of the Individual.
as long as that is the case, america will CONTINUE to lose the economic battle vs japan.
america CANNOT be competitive with japan in a pure free market.
Then concede that and make adjustments!
explain to me how i'm a hypocrit? both of the cars i own are American, an Olds and Ford. as much as i can i buy local or american. by local i mean, when i get the chance i'll buy from a local mom and pop over the walmart, i'll buy NJ made products over products brought in from other states.
so how am i a hypocrit? i own a small business in NJ and i believe in supporting other small businesses in NJ. what is wrong with that? what is wrong with believing that people should contribute to the people that contribute to them?
yes, i concede, free market is a failure. the model doesn't work because, changing the laws in japan does not change the fact that the japanese people are programmed to be extremely socialstic, not in the western sense of an economic system and a political system, but in the eastern sense of, our family, our country and our society is more important than me. western socialism will never understand that.
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
'i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.'
Thats hypocrisy because because thats not how a capitalist market works!
My family owns a small business to albeit in a 'socialist' country, and we don't buy our product from exclusively Canadian producers, rather we purchase from whoever gives us the best damned deal.
Other peoples survival is their own business, I'm concerned about mind.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
'i don't give a fvck about the US i'll buy what i think is best is just plain stupid.'
Thats hypocrisy because because thats not how a capitalist market works!
My family owns a small business to albeit in a 'socialist' country, and we don't buy our product from exclusively Canadian producers, rather we purchase from whoever gives us the best damned deal.
Other peoples survival is their own business, I'm concerned about mind.
how is that hypocrisy, you still haven't shown how it is hypocritical at all. all you've said is, you will screw the local businesses so that you can get a better price on certain products.
but by screwing local businesses you also hurt yourself. there is such a thing as cooperative efforts.
Originally posted by: Zebo
Platnium Gold You are a patriot sir.:thumbsup: My motto If I can buy American I will. Wife about flipped when I brought home a $2500 Wolf stove.. Oh well.
We are trading away the farm too. Only people getting rich are huge multi nationals such as ADM and Cargill pitting our farmers against third world $1 a day slave labor. I encorage all you other patriots to check out http://www.localharvest.org/ for your farmers too. You know we import food like mad from thoughout the world? Who knows what kinds of poisons was used? Congress, being bought and sold as they are, refuses orgin labels. The ecological damage they are causing? And most importantly they aint gonna buy shat from me unlike a USA farmer might. Either though nationlism, socialism, or being flat broke they won't.
Originally posted by: shilala
Exactly.Originally posted by: BD2003
Oh thats right, because youre not a real american if you dont buy american cars eh?
Perfect.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
And...
Everyone who owns a jap car should have it pushed into the ocean while they are in it.