Gm's old Delphi parts division wants a 68% pay cut for its UAW employees..

[Eli]

This thread is absolutely astounding.

Some of you *cough* shilala *cough* are fscking BRAINDEAD.

:roll:

Build better fscking cars, and people will buy them. It's not rocket science.

It has nothing to do with "being patriotic" and "supporting America". It has everything to do with who has the better product.

 

[PandaBear]

Engineers only make $40-45k starting in auto industry
Union workers make $50-55k starting in auto industry

Mom and dad was wrong, I shouldn't went to college.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: tom3
shilala and Zebo, I think your patriotism and your concern for fellow Americans are commendable. However, I respectfully disagree with your views pertaining to buying domestic vehicles.

Several streams of thought (many already mentioned in previous posts):

1. If the current social system and economic structure are flawed, causing US automakers to have to compete at a cost disadvantage, then wouldn't continual support in buying the products prolong the problem? For the sake of this point, let's assume that GM and Nissan cars are equal in quality, reliability, technology used, etc.. Then either cars from both makes sell for the same price, with GM earning much less profit due to higher cost, or GM would have to sell a comparable car for a higher price to generate the same profit per vehicle sold. Neither case is good for GM and GM's future. So back to the question, doesn't buying GM cars under current circumstances essentially result in pumping money to sustain the problematic operation?

Now we must ask whether buying a comparable Nissan at a lower price or buying a better Nissan at the same price help the situation with GM at all. This is of course debatable, but I personally believe that losing market share and revenue forces a company to restructure. If it is impossible for GM to be competitive under current social policies and regulations, then perhaps it takes large corporations such as GM putting pressure on the government for changes to start taking place.

1.5 Ultimately, whom does your money end up supporting more, the engineers, scientists, technicians, assembly line workers? or shareholders and company executives?

2. In today's ever-increasingly global economy, the line between domestic and foreign automakers becomes blurry. When a substantial number of Toyota cars and trucks are designed, engineered, manufactured, sold and maintained right here in the USA, each Toyota vehicle wearing the "foreign" badge provides a living for many American workers. In your stout support for the American work force and economy, is an assembly line worker for Toyota in Alabama any less American than a GM counterpart? Also on a different note, do you consider SAAB domestic now? Jaguars? Volvos? Mazdas?

3. Disregarding what the real world average cost of ownership for a GM or a Ford vehicle may be, let's consider only those in this thread that have said that owning a "domestic" has costed them more money than owning a "foreign" car. Assuming these folks aren't lying (and I have no reason to think that they would), then the money they have saved could mean more goods and services purchased in this U.S. economy, ultimately spurring growth in other sectors.

3.5 Continuing in light of the experience of this limited group of people (which unfortunately mirrors the perception of the population at large in my experience), should we support or reward a lesser performer? It wouldn't be acceptable if an employee is paid more than an equally performing employee simply because of the employer's personal allegiance to the first, right? This may be a moot point to both of you since you do not share the perception that domestic vehicles are of lesser quality.

4. With higher gas prices (though US gas prices are still far cheaper than most other areas in the world), and ever diminishing supplies, GM vehicles simply cannot compete with those from Honda or Toyota when it comes to fuel efficiency. A quick glance at the model line-up and I see that on average GM cars and trucks are 3~5 mpg less than Toyota's. This prompts 2 questions. 1, should consumers be supporting less efficient cars that consumes fuel supplies more rapidly and is more expensive to operate? 2, why hasn't GM been investing in fuel efficient technology? Are fuel consumption and fuel supplies not high enough on the priority list for those making decisions? Do they not care about environment? do they not care about their customers? Because I choose to believe that GM is no less capable in pioneering fuel efficient technology, I have no choice but to think that it has been an oversight in their strategies. Again, should I be supporting GM simply because they are "American"?

5. Like it or not, the increasingly globalizing economy is and will continue to change the way we as a society and as individuals are. When the same product of the same quality can be manufactured in a poorer (lower GDP per capita) country for less, and as a result it becomes less economically viable to produce these products here in the USA, we must adapt. Depending on your views, Walmart may be evil for making cheap products manufactured overseas readily available to the US population, but Walmart also makes it less expensive for Americans to have maintain the same level of living standard. Of course that's no good news to the US textile workers who are out of a job, but unless we want our government to fully implement a protectionist economic strategy (which in my opinion can only weaken our country in the long run), then this outsource and loss of jobs is an inevitable trend. Efforts should be directed towards helping the population to adapt to it, rather than to fight it.

In my opinion we are simply beginning to see the a small tip of the reality that compared to the rest of the world, Americans are simply overpaid for the same jobs. The only edge we are hanging on to involves industries where few is able to do what the US can (microprocessors, pharmaceutical, weapons/defense, the entertainment industry, etc.). But the gap is narrowing and there are fewer and fewer areas where the US can rely on its prowess to stay competitive (case in point, software development outsourcing). Unfortunately, even if we hang on to where we are now, it means loss of jobs and loss of income for millions of working Americans. There are simply not enough jobs requiring skillsets that people from other areas of the world cannot fulfill. Even with those jobs, there simply aren't enough Americans pursuing high enough of an education to fulfill them. The country as a whole needs to find and create niches and edges to create jobs, and to bring up capable workers to take them. Many difficult problems, no simple solutions.

6. On the other hand, we can debate whether a preference for "made in America" and as a result discrimination against things made elsewhere is right and just. (I'm now going into a nagging thought that I struggle with in light of my personal beliefs) This points out a contradiction we harbor within. We would like to think that America, the symbol of freedom, independence, an equal market, equal rights, and democracy to be a society that rewards merits, a society that recognizes what one can do as opposed to who one is. If we had a preference for race, gender, religion, weight, appearance, domestic region of origin (such as north or south US) when it comes to whom we purchase from, we would be sure to keep it a secret and would condemn those that voice them out. But somehow when it is on the scale of the country, it is all okay? Somehow we are able to justify and rationalize the fact that, for instance, a US person makes many times more than a Chinese person doing exactly the same job, or that an American life lost is more valuable than a Iraqi life lost for the exact same cause. Are we promoting a mindset of entitlement? Should we deserve more than the rest of the world simply because we are American? or should we deserve more because of what we do? The essence of patriotism should not be to elevate all those belonging to a country above all others, but it should be to cultivate one's citizens to be able to do better, to do more, and to do justly. In my mind, "buying American" simply because it's American does not point us in the right direction.

/getting off the soapbox now...

[edit] clarified in point 6, region of origin to mean domestic regions.

Well done, Tom.

Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.

People are fallible, and of course, it shows up in their work.
I don't ask the neighbor kid to build me a better paper airplane.
I don't go down the street to the other kid's lemonade stand, and I sure as hell don't order out for Chinese.

I have to support my family, your family, and myself.
It's the right thing to do.

Yes, I understand that the global economy has taken away a lot of opportunity to purchase wholly and truly American made products. Try buying a wholly american television.
The point is not black and white, it's gray.
I have to do the best I can.
I can't buy a european made car.
I can't buy a Japanese made four wheeler.
If the best I can do is buy an American made Honda, then I'm halfways there.
It's sure as hell a lot better than buying a Korean car that just rolled off the boat.

The "Quality" argument is bullshyt. It always has been. American workers have in the past, currently do, and will in the future build anything as well as anyone out there.

My strategy has always been to choose the best from a field of products that has never included Foreign made vehicles.
At one point in my time, there were only two choices: Domestics made in the USA and cars that rolled off the boat. In recent years that has been skewed, making things even more "gray".

I continue to do the best I can.

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

 

[Svnla]

It will be a big shock for those UAW workers to get pay less than $15/hour. How could they survive? Welcome to the real world, folks. You get pay for what you are worth, not because you are in a union.

For those of you that say since we are Americans, we need, nope..HAVE TO buy American made vehicles. The last time I checked, this is a free country. The best product will win in the end.

Look like consumers are voting with their walllets since GM is losing BILLIONS of dollars and its market share is the lowest point in years.

<<<----- drove an import vehicle for over 100K for 10 years and it still running fine...and driving another import. Until most, if not ALL domestic vehicles can be as good as imports, then I won't touch any of them domestics.

Call me whatever you want, but if you want to buy an inferior vehicle with your money, knock yourself out but DO NOT expect us to jump right in.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: amdforever2
Unions will never go for it, Delphi will be bankrupt.


Japanese car driving douchebags are the NUMBER ONE REASON that Ford and GM are struggling.

That and high healthcare. The ridiculous wages and benefits the unions demand tie in with the healthcare issue tho.

Fixed

Douchebag here, signing in. Would you like a new headgasket with your Ford?

I'll happily put a new headgasket in my Ford once a week if it means that it'll help create a job for my child (and yours).
I'm funny that way.

Don't worry, I don't plan to have kids until I'm totally financially secure, if ever. Some...scratch that...most americans should follow suit.

 

[Aftermath]

Well done, Tom.

Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.

Here's the problem I see with your line of thinking.
You love your kid, and his/her work, no matter what, because they're your child.
You love your wife and appreicate her work, even if she says that she knows she made a mess of dinner.
You shouldn't love Ford, or General Motors, or Dodge.


They provide a service, or a good. They're kept competitive with the knowledge that if their quality declines, people will take their money elsewhere, where they can get a better value, or a better car, or better service, or all of the above.
People like you who "love" a company and buy from them and nobody else, are simply supplying them with sales that they don't deserve.
You're dulling the edge of American competitiveness by standing by them when they lose, instead of forcing them to do the American thing and stand up and crank out a better vehicle.
You don't threaten your wife that you're going to divorce her if she doesn't start cooking better, it's not the same thing.
Just like you're not going to tell your child that they'll be disowned if they don't straighten up and make a better paper airplane.

Apples and grapefruit.

 

[flot]

Wow, some of you guys have taken the phrase 'thickheaded idiot' to a whole new level.

I own 2 american cars right now, just because they happened to be what I wanted to buy.

I would not describe either as well built or engineered as any of a number of imports. I would not feel comfortable owning them as long as a nissan or a honda or a mazda.

I would not buy an american car for patriotic reasons. That is completely counterproductive. You would be doing nothing but encouraging the american car makers to continue down their path of building a lousy product (has gotten MUCH better over the last few years though) and overpaying unskilled labor (or even non-working-labor). I absolutely don't want to believe that the car I just paid $30,000 for cost that much because a union paid the guy washing a windshield $20 an hour. If they paid him a reasonable wage, maybe the car would have been $25,000 - and might have beaten import sales based on price alone.

My money will go wherever I want to spend it. I can do that, becuase I'm an American.

 

[tom3]

Originally posted by: shilala
Well done, Tom.

Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.

People are fallible, and of course, it shows up in their work.
I don't ask the neighbor kid to build me a better paper airplane.
I don't go down the street to the other kid's lemonade stand, and I sure as hell don't order out for Chinese.

I have to support my family, your family, and myself.
It's the right thing to do.

Yes, I understand that the global economy has taken away a lot of opportunity to purchase wholly and truly American made products. Try buying a wholly american television.
The point is not black and white, it's gray.
I have to do the best I can.
I can't buy a european made car.
I can't buy a Japanese made four wheeler.
If the best I can do is buy an American made Honda, then I'm halfways there.
It's sure as hell a lot better than buying a Korean car that just rolled off the boat.

The "Quality" argument is bullshyt. It always has been. American workers have in the past, currently do, and will in the future build anything as well as anyone out there.

My strategy has always been to choose the best from a field of products that has never included Foreign made vehicles.
At one point in my time, there were only two choices: Domestics made in the USA and cars that rolled off the boat. In recent years that has been skewed, making things even more "gray".

I continue to do the best I can.

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

shilala, again I admire your conviction and I do not doubt your good will. I would, however, like to challenge you on how your patritism is manifested in your purchasing choices.

I wholly agree with your comment on how gray the "domestic" vs. "foreign" argument has become, and I think you strengthened your stand by specifying American made in addition to an American brand. Then would it be correct to say that your support for Americans is more geared towards the working class as opposed to the corporations? For instance, in the hypothetical choice between an American built Honda and a Mexican built Ford, would you choose the former?

Secondly, I can completely identify with your examples with family members. Yes I too would not alienate my family simply because they do not do well. But if they could do better, I sure would want them to. If my wife cooks badly, I would not reject her but I would tell her honestly and help her to improve. Unfortunately, in commerce, we don't have the luxury of supportive reprimand. We either buy a product or don't buy a product, and sadly, I speculate that continual sales does not in any way encourage imrpovement. Afterall, why change when people are buying what we make, right?

Now what's interesting is that if I am convinced that my wife will never be able to cook well, I would still love her just the same. But both you and I believe that GM can be doing better, right? Again, let's not argue the point about quality and reliability, but at the very least in product promotion, in changing the market's perspective on their products, in fuel efficiency; these are all areas that GM can do a whole lot better on. But there's no incentive for them to improve if customers like yourself continue to buy their products. (on a separate note, if my wife cannot cook well no matter what, I would encourage her to cook less and invest her time & energy in areas that she can excel in)

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: Aftermath

Well done, Tom.

Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.

Here's the problem I see with your line of thinking.
You love your kid, and his/her work, no matter what, because they're your child.
You love your wife and appreicate her work, even if she says that she knows she made a mess of dinner.
You shouldn't love Ford, or General Motors, or Dodge.


They provide a service, or a good. They're kept competitive with the knowledge that if their quality declines, people will take their money elsewhere, where they can get a better value, or a better car, or better service, or all of the above.
People like you who "love" a company and buy from them and nobody else, are simply supplying them with sales that they don't deserve.
You're dulling the edge of American competitiveness by standing by them when they lose, instead of forcing them to do the American thing and stand up and crank out a better vehicle.
You don't threaten your wife that you're going to divorce her if she doesn't start cooking better, it's not the same thing.
Just like you're not going to tell your child that they'll be disowned if they don't straighten up and make a better paper airplane.

Apples and grapefruit.

I don't think it's apples and grapefruit at all.
I believe in people, they are what's important to me.
I'm a craftsman.
I build things. It's what I do.
As I age, my output declines. If I take the stance that you have, I can fully expect that I'm cast out to pasture when I get older. If I act from your viewpoint, I'll deserve it.

One thing that this thread has made me realize is that I thought I didn't make a distinction between people I know and people I don't know.
I do believe in American entitlement as someone pointed out.
I don't wish to support all people, only my people.
For a second, that sounded bad to me.
I've thought about it a little bit, and I'm okay with it.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Aftermath
I'd like to buy American cars, I really would.
I'd love to be a proud, flag waving, Ford/GM/Dodge driving, apple pie eating American.

But I guess I'm not.
I'm not because I want to spend my money buying reliable cars instead of whatever the American companies decide to throw together with the lowest quality of parts they can. Then have the balls to write the same MSRP on their car as the imported car one sitting in the dealership next door, that spanked it in every comparison test. Fortunately though, they offer thousands of dollars in discounts and employee pricing to try to lure anyone in there to look at what they've got, because they only way they can compete with quality, is with huge markdowns.



I noticed at Edmunds that the number one truck in the 2004 full-size truck roundup they had, was the Nissan Titan.

Number one and number two trucks in the 2005 midsize truck roundup they had, were the Toyota Tacoma and the Nissan Frontier.

Top 10 cars with the worst residual value for 2005. All domestic.

Top 10 Trucks/Minivans/SUV's with the worst residual value for 2005. All domestic.

Top 10 recommended sedans. 1 Chrysler.

Top 10 recommended wagons. 1 Dodge.

Top 10 recommended coupes/hatchbacks. Ford AND Chevy on that list. Three whole cars.

Top 10 recommended convertibles. 1 car.

Top 10 recommended SUVs. Finally, the domestics have a market. Gas guzzlers.

Top 5 recommended vans/minivans. Mostly Japanese, one domestic, and one Korean. If Hyundai had a minivan, the Grand Caravan probably wouldn't even be in there.




I wasted a lot of my time just now to make one point. I don't think Americans know how to build good cars. Quality of automobiles might be going up on average, but I still think American auto manufacturers are left standing there scratching their heads. Even the Koreans are simply bypassing the big three and moving on up.

For some reasons, American manufactuers can't get around cutting corners. They can't put a decent interior in a car, it might cost too much. They can't use high quality componants, it might cost too much. They can't pull out all the stops and make the car utterly safe (or even passibly so, in some cases), it might cost too much. They can't put in a tachometer, or cup holders, or a cubby for my sunglasses, it might cost too much.

So screw them. I'll go buy my used "Jap crap" cars and get around all I need to and be happy doing so. And what's really pathetic, is that domestic fanboys can't even come back and say things like "Well so and so cars ARE high quality and highly reliable!" unless it's just hearsay. They can't convince anyone with any GOOD, LOGICAL reasons to buy domestics other than "It's cheap for what you get!" (AKA You get what you pay for.) And "But it's supporting 'merica you commie bastards! 'merican jobs! 'merican employees! 'merican apple pie!" despite the fact that many foreign care ARE built in the United States, by American employees who do indeed enjoy their apple pie.

Media bias. Liberal media hates the American worker. Second, Car warranties which are sold as bumper to bumper insurance for up to 100,000 miles are right in-line with what the MSRP is on the vechile. Meaning these guys who actually have money on the line and pay actuaries hundreds of thousands of dollars to study this stuff and set proper rates disagree with Flawed CR relibility suveys finding American cars just as reliable.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... hilarious

 

[PandaBear]

shilala,

You do have very good points about your view of buying domestic, and keep the money here to help everyone lives.

However, the "right way" from what I know is to teach these businesses/workers how to be self sufficients by themselves. If that means building bigger cars and the market supports it, do it. If that means building cheaper cars and market supports it, do it. If that means shut down plants, and kept 50% of the workers rather than going out of businesses and kept none, do it.

The problem they have right now is the extra fixed cost due to healthcare and retired workers. If you have to sell for cheaper but the car cost more to build, you have to cut corners and lower quality, no other ways around it. That's the reason their quality is still not there yet.

If you think union workers (or anyone) deserves a better salary just because they are in a union, then the businesses that employ them won't last long. Think how the communism fail, because there is no incentive to be efficient or work hard anymore.

It is a matter of time, we can prolong it by buying lower quality made in U.S. stuff, or we can follow the logics and let these unprofitable businesses/workers learn to survive one way or another.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Aftermath

Well done, Tom.

Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.

Here's the problem I see with your line of thinking.
You love your kid, and his/her work, no matter what, because they're your child.
You love your wife and appreicate her work, even if she says that she knows she made a mess of dinner.
You shouldn't love Ford, or General Motors, or Dodge.


They provide a service, or a good. They're kept competitive with the knowledge that if their quality declines, people will take their money elsewhere, where they can get a better value, or a better car, or better service, or all of the above.
People like you who "love" a company and buy from them and nobody else, are simply supplying them with sales that they don't deserve.
You're dulling the edge of American competitiveness by standing by them when they lose, instead of forcing them to do the American thing and stand up and crank out a better vehicle.
You don't threaten your wife that you're going to divorce her if she doesn't start cooking better, it's not the same thing.
Just like you're not going to tell your child that they'll be disowned if they don't straighten up and make a better paper airplane.

Apples and grapefruit.

Highted the important part. By having some kind of fallacious reasoning that you will support america (fvck yeah..) by buying inferior product you hurting the country in the long run. The reason this country kicks ass is because there are many many things that we're absolutely best at. Our armed forces research doesn't crank out the best equipment because we tell people to buy american. NASA didn't make it to the moon because their scientists mediocre.... I can name examples all day long

This country has always been driven by competition, which in it's essence defines capitalism. If you start using the Marcantillistic reasoning for your purchases, all of us will suffer in the long run. With no incentive to innovate and stay ahead of the competition, our economy will fail in same manner that communist economies did.


Here's somethign that might hit home.
I work on cars a lot. Thought my car is german, all my tools are made by craftsman. Why? Because Craftsman makes some of THE best tools i can get for my money. I know they're well made and I know they are guaranteed for life. That's why i pay ~20% price premium over stuff made in china.In turn, Craftsman corporation is doing well and every couple of months they come up with some crazy new idea for *whatever*. This what keeps them ahead of competition and thats what keeps me buying it.

 

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

So is it patriotic for American companies to outsource their production to foreign companies?
Is it patriotic that the vast majority of everyday items you purchase are not produced in America (and don't tell me you only buy goods made in America, at this point is it nearly impossible)?
I understand it's a "grey area" but the fact remains that your "patriotic " buying habits are really in vain when faced with a global economy. You can throw the idea of a global economy out the door as much as you want in your head, but the reality is that no one on this planet is going to get anywhere if we all just stick to our own little worlds and hope and prey no one comes in and shatters our false sense of security.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Welcome to a world where America has competitors. *gasp* I know it's hard to imagine, but there are other people out there.

I, as a freeborn American, have the right in a capatalist society to purchase the best product, for the best price, from whomever I choose.
You are suggesting that I throw away my intelligent choices in product just to support a bloated, failing company base, solely because it is "American". I cannot think of a more foolish way to make financial decisions.

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this, but when someone tries to do something about it, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If it so so hard for these workers to live without their incredibly inflated wages and benefits, why is it that so many others in the country can get along just fine?

 

[iversonyin]

Originally posted by: SampSon

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

So is it patriotic for American companies to outsource their production to foreign companies?
Is it patriotic that the vast majority of everyday items you purchase are not produced in America (and don't tell me you only buy goods made in America, at this point is it nearly impossible)?
I understand it's a "grey area" but the fact remains that your "patriotic " buying habits are really in vain when faced with a global economy. You can throw the idea of a global economy out the door as much as you want in your head, but the reality is that no one on this planet is going to get anywhere if we all just stick to our own little worlds and hope and prey no one comes in and shatters our false sense of security.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Welcome to a world where America has competitors. *gasp* I know it's hard to imagine, but there are other people out there.

I, as a freeborn American, have the right in a capatalist society to purchase the best product, for the best price, from whomever I choose.
You are suggesting that I throw away my intelligent choices in product just to support a bloated, failing company base, solely because it is "American". I cannot think of a more foolish way to make financial decisions.

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this, but when someone tries to do something about it, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If it so so hard for these workers to live without their incredibly inflated wages and benefits, why is it that so many others in the country can get along just fine?

I totally agree. Because of these UAW workers, GM and other domestic car manufacturers became less compeitive.

And if you support America by buying only domestic in light of helping American workers, you are wrong. I supposed GM moved crap load of factories out of U.S. By buying domestic, you are only helping GM shareholders and part of their workers.

Toyota and Honda had built factories where GM ditched them.

Buy domestic?

BTW, I drive a Honda that was made in U.S. fuvking A.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: Eli
This thread is absolutely astounding.

Some of you *cough* shilala *cough* are fscking BRAINDEAD.

:roll:

Build better fscking cars, and people will buy them. It's not rocket science.

It has nothing to do with "being patriotic" and "supporting America". It has everything to do with who has the better product.

Agreed, and there is *nothing* wrong with changing! I always get the feeling that in many industries change isn't wanted, including specific IT operations.

I'm not even talking about the company and their products alone, but the VIEWS people have as well! There is *nothing* wrong with changing your view...

I know I personally have changed my view many times having debates, however I don't see many others doing the same, ego issues?

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: tom3

Originally posted by: shilala
Well done, Tom.

Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.

People are fallible, and of course, it shows up in their work.
I don't ask the neighbor kid to build me a better paper airplane.
I don't go down the street to the other kid's lemonade stand, and I sure as hell don't order out for Chinese.

I have to support my family, your family, and myself.
It's the right thing to do.

Yes, I understand that the global economy has taken away a lot of opportunity to purchase wholly and truly American made products. Try buying a wholly american television.
The point is not black and white, it's gray.
I have to do the best I can.
I can't buy a european made car.
I can't buy a Japanese made four wheeler.
If the best I can do is buy an American made Honda, then I'm halfways there.
It's sure as hell a lot better than buying a Korean car that just rolled off the boat.

The "Quality" argument is bullshyt. It always has been. American workers have in the past, currently do, and will in the future build anything as well as anyone out there.

My strategy has always been to choose the best from a field of products that has never included Foreign made vehicles.
At one point in my time, there were only two choices: Domestics made in the USA and cars that rolled off the boat. In recent years that has been skewed, making things even more "gray".

I continue to do the best I can.

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

shilala, again I admire your conviction and I do not doubt your good will. I would, however, like to challenge you on how your patritism is manifested in your purchasing choices.

I wholly agree with your comment on how gray the "domestic" vs. "foreign" argument has become, and I think you strengthened your stand by specifying American made in addition to an American brand. Then would it be correct to say that your support for Americans is more geared towards the working class as opposed to the corporations? For instance, in the hypothetical choice between an American built Honda and a Mexican built Ford, would you choose the former?

Secondly, I can completely identify your examples with family members. Yes I too would not alienate my family simply because they do not do well. But if they could do better, I sure would want them to. If my wife cooks badly, I would not reject her but I would tell her honestly and help her to improve. Unfortunately, in commerce, we don't have the luxury of supportive reprimand. We either buy a product or don't buy a product, and sadly, I speculate that continual sales does not in any way encourage imrpovement. Afterall, why change when people are buying what we make, right?

Now what's interesting is that if I am convinced that my wife will never be able to cook well, I would still love her just the same. But both you and I believe that GM can be doing better, right? Again, let's not argue the point about quality and reliability, but at the very least in product promotion, in changing the market's perspective on their products, in fuel efficiency; these are all areas that GM can do a whole lot better on. But there's no incentive for them to improve if customers like yourself continue to buy their products. (on a separate note, if my wife cannot cook well no matter what, I would encourage her to cook less and invest her time & energy in areas that she can excel in)

On the American made Honda or the Mexican made Ford...
Neither would factor into my choices.
If they were the only two choices in the world, I would walk.
Which is the least of two evils? As you already guessed, the American made Honda.

Back on point...
If neither of the type of vehicles you mentioned are factored into my choices, I have a few major retailers to choose from that offer American made American cars.
If I don't buy a GM, and you don't buy a GM, and no one else buys a GM, there's their incentive to improve.
Odds are that they will simply improve their line of bullshyt in order to sway your opinion, but nevertheless, they'll improve.
In a closed market economy, products suffer. It's happened with US autos.
When there were no foreign vehicles, American car quality went to shyt because they could. There was no incentive for innovation, no need for quality control, only a need to improve enough to take a bigger hunk of the market share.
Then came foreign vehicles. They were better. American automakers were forced to build a better vehicle and responded. Problem is, it takes lots of years for folks to forget their handles falling off the doors of their new vehicles. It takes them a long time to forget their new International Scout completely rotting out in a year only to see them go out of business and have no recourse.
They let other countries have a foothold and those companies are now entrenched.
I don't believe that any business should exist without being competent.
If GM sinks, it's because of many factors. To blame it on the grunt workers who have absolutely no input on the engineering of the product or operation of the company's mission is ludicrous.

Another point...

To say that any worker is not worth any amount of money is jealousy. Plain and simple.
Is Barry Bonds worth 7 million a year?
You're damn right he is. That's why he's getting it.

Is a GM autoworker worth 30 bucks an hour?
You're damn right he is, or GM would not have negotiated the salary.

Is an IT worker worth 40k a year? 100K a year?
He's worth every dime he can get.

One more point...

It's been shown here in this thread that, in fact, There are American-made domestic vehicles that are equal to or superior to either foreign-made foreign vehicles or American-made foreign vehicles.
In that instance, I submit that any American willing to make a purchase of anything other than an American-made domestic vehicle is doing so because of ignorance, selfishness, or denial.

Lastly...
Just as strongly as I believe in an American made products, I believe in an American's right to choose.
I would hope to have swayed a few people or at least made them think, but ultimately, each person has to make the right decision for themselves.
To some people, the few hundred bucks they save on a foreign car may mean the difference between eating, making the bills, or putting clothes on their children.
I'm fortunate that I can lose that extra few bucks because I have a damn good job that was fought for and provided me by damn good men.
All I can do is hope that money goes toward creating a job that will allow the same standard of living for my children and your children.
I don't want people to have to live paycheck to paycheck for minimum wage.

Once GM, Ford and Chrysler are pushed out, it won't be long until those fair-paying non-union jobs turn into something much less.
If you don't think that's so, the proof is just as close as any economics history book.
(And when you look, realize that a "global economy" as it exists today has never existed.)

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: middlehead
I'd rather see them fire all the union people and start fresh

The NLRB would pin their ass to the wall and fvck them raw.

 

[Howard]

The Honda plant in Marysville produces the Accord, Civic, Acura TL and CL. The Honda plant in East Liberty produces the Accord, Civic, Acura CL, and Element. The Lincoln plant produces the Odyssey and the Pilot. Honda has plants in Canada and Mexico, but American production (in vehicles) is approximately twice as much as Canadian and Mexican production combined (803 403 vehicles in America, compared to 392 528 in Canada and 21 824 in Mexico, in 2003).

More than 75% of the cars and light trucks Honda sells in the U.S. were built in North America. Increasingly, many of these products are developed in America as well, including the Honda Civic Coupe, Element, Pilot and Ridgeline - and the Acura TL and MDX.

Honda's North American auto production capacity has increased to 1.4 million units, using domestic and globally sourced parts.
Honda purchased more than $10 billion in parts and materials from U.S. suppliers for the fiscal year ending March 2004.
With investment of $270 million and 600 new jobs, Honda is enhancing its powertrain manufacturing capability in North America, including construction of a $100 million new automatic transmission plant in Georgia, and the addition of gear production at the existing automatic transmission plant in Ohio and production of new engine components at the engine production facility in Alabama.

The Nissan plant in Smyrna, Tennessee produces the Nissan Altima midsize sedan, the Nissan Xterra sport-utility vehicle and the full line of Nissan Frontier pickup trucks, including four- and two-wheel-drive versions of the Frontier Regular Cab, Frontier King Cab and Frontier Crew Cab. The Nissan plant in Canton, Missississippi produces the Nissan Titan full-size pickup truck, Armada full-size sport-utility vehicle, Altima mid-size sedan, Quest minivan and the Infiniti QX56 full-size luxury sport-utility vehicle.

In 2004, Toyota produced more than 1.44 million vehicles, more than 1.27 million engines and nearly 390,000 automatic transmissions at its North American manufacturing facilities.

By 2008, Toyota will have the annual capacity to build 1.81 million cars and trucks, 1.44 million engines, and 600,000 automatic transmissions in North America.

The company's direct employment in North America is 38,000 and direct investment is nearly $16.3 billion with annual purchasing of parts, materials, goods and services from North American suppliers totaling an additional $26 billion.

Now, please kindly shut the fu[/b]ck up about not supporting Americans.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: iversonyin

Originally posted by: SampSon

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

So is it patriotic for American companies to outsource their production to foreign companies?
Is it patriotic that the vast majority of everyday items you purchase are not produced in America (and don't tell me you only buy goods made in America, at this point is it nearly impossible)?
I understand it's a "grey area" but the fact remains that your "patriotic " buying habits are really in vain when faced with a global economy. You can throw the idea of a global economy out the door as much as you want in your head, but the reality is that no one on this planet is going to get anywhere if we all just stick to our own little worlds and hope and prey no one comes in and shatters our false sense of security.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Welcome to a world where America has competitors. *gasp* I know it's hard to imagine, but there are other people out there.

I, as a freeborn American, have the right in a capatalist society to purchase the best product, for the best price, from whomever I choose.
You are suggesting that I throw away my intelligent choices in product just to support a bloated, failing company base, solely because it is "American". I cannot think of a more foolish way to make financial decisions.

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this, but when someone tries to do something about it, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If it so so hard for these workers to live without their incredibly inflated wages and benefits, why is it that so many others in the country can get along just fine?

I totally agree. Because of these UAW workers, GM and other domestic car manufacturers became less compeitive.

And if you support America by buying only domestic in light of helping American workers, you are wrong. I supposed GM moved crap load of factories out of U.S. By buying domestic, you are only helping GM shareholders and part of their workers.

Toyota and Honda had built factories where GM ditched them.

Buy domestic?

BTW, I drive a Honda that was made in U.S. fuvking A.

Sure you did. Got a sticker? Every honda I've seen in assembled in US from foriegn parts. How much of the car originated in the USA?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: SampSon

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

So is it patriotic for American companies to outsource their production to foreign companies?
Is it patriotic that the vast majority of everyday items you purchase are not produced in America (and don't tell me you only buy goods made in America, at this point is it nearly impossible)?
I understand it's a "grey area" but the fact remains that your "patriotic " buying habits are really in vain when faced with a global economy. You can throw the idea of a global economy out the door as much as you want in your head, but the reality is that no one on this planet is going to get anywhere if we all just stick to our own little worlds and hope and prey no one comes in and shatters our false sense of security.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Welcome to a world where America has competitors. *gasp* I know it's hard to imagine, but there are other people out there.

I, as a freeborn American, have the right in a capatalist society to purchase the best product, for the best price, from whomever I choose.
You are suggesting that I throw away my intelligent choices in product just to support a bloated, failing company base, solely because it is "American". I cannot think of a more foolish way to make financial decisions.

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this, but when someone tries to do something about it, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If it so so hard for these workers to live without their incredibly inflated wages and benefits, why is it that so many others in the country can get along just fine?

Enjoy it while you can you can bet the Asians will not give us back our economy once we have lost it. They will never play the "free trade" game and let their labor force be displaced by cheap American labor. They are buying assets (companies) and instruments of debt with our dollars to rectify the massive trade imbalace. We buy trinkets and cars and other junk they make. Meanwhile, in the past five years mortgage debt has risen by 55 percent. Total personal debt now stands at 100 percent of personal income with lessoning prospects.

This article is by Reagan's former tres sec Dr. Roberts and I think goes a long way in explaining why your perceptions of comparative advantage won't work.
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/050904_marx.htm

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this,

How do you figure? Please explain how it's the workers fault and what you'd do to fix it?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: iversonyin

Originally posted by: SampSon

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

So is it patriotic for American companies to outsource their production to foreign companies?
Is it patriotic that the vast majority of everyday items you purchase are not produced in America (and don't tell me you only buy goods made in America, at this point is it nearly impossible)?
I understand it's a "grey area" but the fact remains that your "patriotic " buying habits are really in vain when faced with a global economy. You can throw the idea of a global economy out the door as much as you want in your head, but the reality is that no one on this planet is going to get anywhere if we all just stick to our own little worlds and hope and prey no one comes in and shatters our false sense of security.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Welcome to a world where America has competitors. *gasp* I know it's hard to imagine, but there are other people out there.

I, as a freeborn American, have the right in a capatalist society to purchase the best product, for the best price, from whomever I choose.
You are suggesting that I throw away my intelligent choices in product just to support a bloated, failing company base, solely because it is "American". I cannot think of a more foolish way to make financial decisions.

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this, but when someone tries to do something about it, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If it so so hard for these workers to live without their incredibly inflated wages and benefits, why is it that so many others in the country can get along just fine?

I totally agree. Because of these UAW workers, GM and other domestic car manufacturers became less compeitive.

And if you support America by buying only domestic in light of helping American workers, you are wrong. I supposed GM moved crap load of factories out of U.S. By buying domestic, you are only helping GM shareholders and part of their workers.

Toyota and Honda had built factories where GM ditched them.

Buy domestic?

BTW, I drive a Honda that was made in U.S. fuvking A.

I disagree with the UAW being the cause. Even at a discounted price compared to their Japanese counterparts, GM/Ford are having a difficult time competing. Japanese Automakers are able to charge a Premium, while GM/Ford simply can't compete on Quality, Style(argueable), Fuel Economy, and other factors, but even with the wages paid to the UAW GM/Ford could make a Profit, if anyone was willing to buy their products.

 

[Strk]

Ford is getting much better on the quality and style, but I question GM.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: tom3

Originally posted by: shilala
Well done, Tom.

Here's the way I think...
If my child makes a paper airplane and it's pretty rough, I fly it.
If my kid makes lemonade for her lemonade stand and puts a little too much lemon juice in it, I still buy it.
If my wife burns dinner, I still eat it.

People are fallible, and of course, it shows up in their work.
I don't ask the neighbor kid to build me a better paper airplane.
I don't go down the street to the other kid's lemonade stand, and I sure as hell don't order out for Chinese.

I have to support my family, your family, and myself.
It's the right thing to do.

Yes, I understand that the global economy has taken away a lot of opportunity to purchase wholly and truly American made products. Try buying a wholly american television.
The point is not black and white, it's gray.
I have to do the best I can.
I can't buy a european made car.
I can't buy a Japanese made four wheeler.
If the best I can do is buy an American made Honda, then I'm halfways there.
It's sure as hell a lot better than buying a Korean car that just rolled off the boat.

The "Quality" argument is bullshyt. It always has been. American workers have in the past, currently do, and will in the future build anything as well as anyone out there.

My strategy has always been to choose the best from a field of products that has never included Foreign made vehicles.
At one point in my time, there were only two choices: Domestics made in the USA and cars that rolled off the boat. In recent years that has been skewed, making things even more "gray".

I continue to do the best I can.

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

shilala, again I admire your conviction and I do not doubt your good will. I would, however, like to challenge you on how your patritism is manifested in your purchasing choices.

I wholly agree with your comment on how gray the "domestic" vs. "foreign" argument has become, and I think you strengthened your stand by specifying American made in addition to an American brand. Then would it be correct to say that your support for Americans is more geared towards the working class as opposed to the corporations? For instance, in the hypothetical choice between an American built Honda and a Mexican built Ford, would you choose the former?

Secondly, I can completely identify your examples with family members. Yes I too would not alienate my family simply because they do not do well. But if they could do better, I sure would want them to. If my wife cooks badly, I would not reject her but I would tell her honestly and help her to improve. Unfortunately, in commerce, we don't have the luxury of supportive reprimand. We either buy a product or don't buy a product, and sadly, I speculate that continual sales does not in any way encourage imrpovement. Afterall, why change when people are buying what we make, right?

Now what's interesting is that if I am convinced that my wife will never be able to cook well, I would still love her just the same. But both you and I believe that GM can be doing better, right? Again, let's not argue the point about quality and reliability, but at the very least in product promotion, in changing the market's perspective on their products, in fuel efficiency; these are all areas that GM can do a whole lot better on. But there's no incentive for them to improve if customers like yourself continue to buy their products. (on a separate note, if my wife cannot cook well no matter what, I would encourage her to cook less and invest her time & energy in areas that she can excel in)

On the American made Honda or the Mexican made Ford...
Neither would factor into my choices.
If they were the only two choices in the world, I would walk.
Which is the least of two evils? As you already guessed, the American made Honda.

Back on point...
If neither of the type of vehicles you mentioned are factored into my choices, I have a few major retailers to choose from that offer American made American cars.
If I don't buy a GM, and you don't buy a GM, and no one else buys a GM, there's their incentive to improve.
Odds are that they will simply improve their line of bullshyt in order to sway your opinion, but nevertheless, they'll improve.
In a closed market economy, products suffer. It's happened with US autos.
When there were no foreign vehicles, American car quality went to shyt because they could. There was no incentive for innovation, no need for quality control, only a need to improve enough to take a bigger hunk of the market share.
Then came foreign vehicles. They were better. American automakers were forced to build a better vehicle and responded. Problem is, it takes lots of years for folks to forget their handles falling off the doors of their new vehicles. It takes them a long time to forget their new International Scout completely rotting out in a year only to see them go out of business and have no recourse.
They let other countries have a foothold and those companies are now entrenched.
I don't believe that any business should exist without being competent.
If GM sinks, it's because of many factors. To blame it on the grunt workers who have absolutely no input on the engineering of the product or operation of the company's mission is ludicrous.

Another point...

To say that any worker is not worth any amount of money is jealousy. Plain and simple.
Is Barry Bonds worth 7 million a year?
You're damn right he is. That's why he's getting it.

Is a GM autoworker worth 30 bucks an hour?
You're damn right he is, or GM would not have negotiated the salary.

Is an IT worker worth 40k a year? 100K a year?
He's worth every dime he can get.

One more point...

It's been shown here in this thread that, in fact, There are American-made domestic vehicles that are equal to or superior to either foreign-made foreign vehicles or American-made foreign vehicles.
In that instance, I submit that any American willing to make a purchase of anything other than an American-made domestic vehicle is doing so because of ignorance, selfishness, or denial.

Lastly...
Just as strongly as I believe in an American made products, I believe in an American's right to choose.
I would hope to have swayed a few people or at least made them think, but ultimately, each person has to make the right decision for themselves.
To some people, the few hundred bucks they save on a foreign car may mean the difference between eating, making the bills, or putting clothes on their children.
I'm fortunate that I can lose that extra few bucks because I have a damn good job that was fought for and provided me by damn good men.
All I can do is hope that money goes toward creating a job that will allow the same standard of living for my children and your children.
I don't want people to have to live paycheck to paycheck for minimum wage.

Once GM, Ford and Chrysler are pushed out, it won't be long until those fair-paying non-union jobs turn into something much less.
If you don't think that's so, the proof is just as close as any economics history book.
(And when you look, realize that a "global economy" as it exists today has never existed.)

Exactly. You're paid what you're worth always in a free market negotiable envrioment such as USA. Problem is we are not competeing in free market. All our trading partners are either labor busting communist or heavily socialistic.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
I am not sure if you got the news bulletin or not but the point of this is that UAQ employees are OVERPAID

Right, we are in the world of $600,000 "starter homes" and you think $27 is underpaid. One word. Bullsh1t. It would seem obvious they are underpaid if as you guys claim the workmanship is inferior since no unhappy worker turn good product.

 

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: SampSon

We can intellectualize and globally economize this argument to death.
No matter how you slice it, it still remains that it is not patriotic to buy a foreign made foreign vehicle.
It never was and never will be.
It's not right, period.

So is it patriotic for American companies to outsource their production to foreign companies?
Is it patriotic that the vast majority of everyday items you purchase are not produced in America (and don't tell me you only buy goods made in America, at this point is it nearly impossible)?
I understand it's a "grey area" but the fact remains that your "patriotic " buying habits are really in vain when faced with a global economy. You can throw the idea of a global economy out the door as much as you want in your head, but the reality is that no one on this planet is going to get anywhere if we all just stick to our own little worlds and hope and prey no one comes in and shatters our false sense of security.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Welcome to a world where America has competitors. *gasp* I know it's hard to imagine, but there are other people out there.

I, as a freeborn American, have the right in a capatalist society to purchase the best product, for the best price, from whomever I choose.
You are suggesting that I throw away my intelligent choices in product just to support a bloated, failing company base, solely because it is "American". I cannot think of a more foolish way to make financial decisions.

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this, but when someone tries to do something about it, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If it so so hard for these workers to live without their incredibly inflated wages and benefits, why is it that so many others in the country can get along just fine?

Enjoy it while you can you can bet the Asians will not give us back our economy once we have lost it. They will never play the "free trade" game and let their labor force be displaced by cheap American labor. They are buying assets (companies) and instruments of debt with our dollars to rectify the massive trade imbalace. We buy trinkets and cars and other junk they make. Meanwhile, in the past five years mortgage debt has risen by 55 percent. Total personal debt now stands at 100 percent of personal income with lessoning prospects.

This article is by Reagan's former tres sec Dr. Roberts and I think goes a long way in explaining why your perceptions of comparative advantage won't work.
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/050904_marx.htm

The american auto worker is the primary reason why the auto industry is failing. Everyone knows this,

How do you figure? Please explain how it's the workers fault and what you'd do to fix it?

A large portion of GM's income goes into benefits of current and retired workers. There are many articles about this, your keen googling abilities will help you uncover any number of them. That has been pegged as one of American automakers largest problems. You should know that just by reading the large amount of posts about that subject on this forum.

That article you posted assumes that a "free trade economist" (which you are assuming I am or that I am defending their stance) expects an equal trade off when capital is shifted to another countries economy. I am not asserting that. I agree with the article. The fact of the matter is that I am not going to agree with pouring my hard earned money into an inferior product just because a union laborer wants a raise and better prescription coverage.

China has a huge edge because of it's massive population and it's communist based government. It also has a societal edge over the ridiculous American sense of entitlement. Of course they won't sell out to cheap American labor because they will always be able to provide more labor and cheaper labor than the US ever will. In the OP's article the autoworkers are scoffing at working for $15 per hour plus benefits. Well gee, you have 500million chinese waiting in line for a job like that, while Americans turn their silverspoon noses up at it.

I'm not sure how to "fix" it. Fixing it would require delving deep into the roots of American society and it's incredible sense of entitlement and endless laziness. Americans always want more for less and want to do as little as possible to get it. How exactly does that credo provide a benefit to American laborists or create a competitive edge for Americans? It's going to boil down to joe laborist having to make less money, have less benefits and work harder in order to produce a superior product at an effective cost. They are doing exactly the opposite, demanding more money, more benefits and doing less work.

Rising mortgage debt is generally a good thing as it pertains to real property ownership. As long as the bonds are not sold to foreign investors the money circulates within our own system. If that mortgage debt is related to paying off other unsecured debt like credit cards, then it is definatly bad debt.

Debt has risen because Americans are apathetic, ravenous consumers who absolutely revel in the disposable lifestyle we have created. The "i want it all, I want it now" mentality has thrown the idea of fiscal responsibility out the door. The idea of saving, paying with cash and living within your means is all but gone. It only took a generation or two of mindless sheep to create this situation, now it grows at an exponential rate.

If American automakers can produce a vehicle that fits my needs, is on par with foreign goods and is at a cost effective rate, then I will buy it. But not a single American manufacturer is doing that, and not a single one has for some time. I shopped around for American cars before I bought my subaru, and I can honestly say I left every single lot laughing hysterically. I will never undermine my needs by purchasing an American auto just because it may help the economy (which you should know very well it actually doesn't, due to the fallacy of competitive edge).

Workers have to come to terms with the fact that they have to sacrifice certain things in order to make this a reality. Thoes things will include their high paying, low impact jobs and ridiculous benefits. Consumers have to open their eyes to the effects of their rabid spending habits, sense of entitlement and need for disposable lifestyle. The harsh reality is that it will probably never happen in my lifetime and I can only sit by and watch as this once mighty country slowly sink to the depths.