Originally posted by: JS80
This guy is interpreting the Bible like how Nancy Pelosi interprets the Constitution.
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).
He's probably a left wing atheist troll trying to make Christianity look bad.
/tin foil hat
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: JS80
This guy is interpreting the Bible like how Nancy Pelosi interprets the Constitution.
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).
He's probably a left wing atheist troll trying to make Christianity look bad.
/tin foil hat
Like you?
Did anyone tell the rest of Christianity about it? They seem to have quite a bit of disagreement over this kind of thing, what with there being so many different sects.Originally posted by: sao123
read the book of acts. indeed it is all explained.
Originally posted by: Jeff7
So if all sin, and all sins are equal, why'd Adam and Eve get cast out of the Garden for one little sin, and do that whole condemnation of toiling in the dirt, and pain in childbirth, and all that stuff?
And why'd God continue that curse upon all humans to follow after? What the heck did we do?
(And for that matter, why curse all snakes? Just because one of them went bad, they all get to suffer?)
Also, God can do the saving? I thought that was Jesus? Or are they the same thing?
Did anyone tell the rest of Christianity about it? They seem to have quite a bit of disagreement over this kind of thing, what with there being so many different sects.Originally posted by: sao123
read the book of acts. indeed it is all explained.
Originally posted by: Jeff7
So if all sin, and all sins are equal, why'd Adam and Eve get cast out of the Garden for one little sin, and do that whole condemnation of toiling in the dirt, and pain in childbirth, and all that stuff?
And why'd God continue that curse upon all humans to follow after? What the heck did we do?
(And for that matter, why curse all snakes? Just because one of them went bad, they all get to suffer?)
Also, God can do the saving? I thought that was Jesus? Or are they the same thing?
Did anyone tell the rest of Christianity about it? They seem to have quite a bit of disagreement over this kind of thing, what with there being so many different sects.Originally posted by: sao123
read the book of acts. indeed it is all explained.
They're more like questions to see what kind of answers I get. I ask them in most religion threads I find myself in.Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Serious questions or just invitation for a fun flame day? If serious, I'll provide my thoughts in PM. If you're out for some flaming (nothing wrong with that; it's why the internet exists ) I'll leave it for someone else to pick up.
Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
More evidence that secular sources don't know jack about 'fundamental' Christianity.Originally posted by: Jeff7
Nah that's the Old Testament, and that doesn't count anymore. :laugh:Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
According to Leviticus 20 homoesexuality is punishable by death. Seems to me like he's more in line with fundamental Christianity than you are.
It's more the old laws that "don't count" than the entire OT volume. If you read the book of Hebrews, you'll find Jesus came to supplant the old law. You'll notice Christians aren't sacrificing animals these days to cover their sin. 'Fundamental' Christians don't abide by ancient Israeli laws.
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Just because a person claims to represent a faith and wears a label of some authority, does not mean he/she is speaking the truth
-Kevin
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
More evidence that secular sources don't know jack about 'fundamental' Christianity.Originally posted by: Jeff7
Nah that's the Old Testament, and that doesn't count anymore. :laugh:Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
According to Leviticus 20 homoesexuality is punishable by death. Seems to me like he's more in line with fundamental Christianity than you are.
It's more the old laws that "don't count" than the entire OT volume. If you read the book of Hebrews, you'll find Jesus came to supplant the old law. You'll notice Christians aren't sacrificing animals these days to cover their sin. 'Fundamental' Christians don't abide by ancient Israeli laws.
What ever happened to just having faith in Jesus as your savior? Isn't that all you really need? All that other stuff is just a distraction. I mean, you're supposed to try to follow the Bible as best you can but I think the idea is that no one can do it perfectly, so you have to humbly admit that you've sinned and accept Jesus and you'll be saved.
This coming from an atheist, BTW. I don't know that much about Christianity, but that seems like the universal idea behind every Christian denomination. Going around "converting" gays or preaching about how they're evil isn't being a Christian. It's just being a douchebag.
I'd say you've got a good summation of my view as a Christian. Sin exists, we all sin, no one sin is worse than another, we all need saving and God is willing to save us all equally if we want to be saved and he respects our choice if we're not into the whole God thing.
Going around and singling out a particular group of people as sinners is stupid since we all equally sin. I need saving, they need saving, none of us are perfect so saving is in order, but it isn't because they're "bad" and I'm "good". I know plenty of gays that are better people than me.
Originally posted by: Crono
The following is meant as an explanation for those who are willing to hear it. If you don't like the Bible, don't believe in it or God, then don't bother reading it. Whether you like God or the Bible or not, it's not going to change my beliefs or what is written in the Bible, and chances are I've already heard how you think my God is full of hate, injustice, and He doesn't exist, etc etc or homosexuality is not a choice.
From quote in OP, I would say it's a "ministry" based on fear and a singular message that has nothing to do with the gospel.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin, but it doesn't say to go out and kill homosexuals. The law was given to the nation of Israel, specifically (it's not one of the 10 commandments, by the way), and was intended to serve as a protection for the nation against the corruption of the nation. The law (also forbids divorce, bestiality, etc) was for the authorities in the nation to enforce, not for vigilante justice by hate mongers.
OT law was very strict in terms of punishment for breaking the law, including against rebellious children who refused to heed their parents or the law. The reason it was strict and God prescribed harsh punishments was because it was necessary in order to keep the nation in line and to protect the lineage that would ultimately lead to Christ. Even with the law, you can read how Israel turned to sin again and again, and every time they did they would suffer the consequences of their actions.
The reason Christians don't follow the OT law is because it was never meant for the entire world, and not for all time. Even reading the Torah you see that the law was meant to be in effect until the prophet came who would speak on behalf of God and explain the law (the heart of the law, and not just the prescriptions of it) to them, and bring an understanding of who God was so that humanity could once again dwell with God. Christ, being both man and God, became the reconciler between redeemed humanity and God. Christ came to fulfill the law, and He did so with His coming and ministry on earth.
The heart of the law, as explained by Jesus in the sermon on the mount, is that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind; and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.
Homosexuality is still wrong because it is against what God designed for man, that sex take place within marriage between a man and a woman who love each other and are married and committed solely to one another. The penalty for homosexuality (death), however, is not what is prescribed in the OT, but whatever the government does or does not impose. In other words, it's not for a Christian to go around enforcing the OT law, but to spread the gospel message of repentance and salvation and to do good works. Note that Jesus didn't go around condemning homosexuals and blasting away perpetrators crimes against the OT law in Israel (the one place the law actually was used for local governance). He didn't go around condemning prostitutes or thieves, either. What He did do was to preach to all those who were willing to hear, and He forgave those who wanted forgiveness. Christ did not come to condemn, but He came to forgive and to build His (spiritual) kingdom on earth. The one group of people that He did have a lot to say against was the group who were convinced they weren't sinners, the hypocrites of the scribes and Pharisees. The repentant tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. He welcomed, and indeed the early church was formed by sinners who wanted to follow Christ and had turned from their former ways.
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Without having read the thread (And I apologize for that), let me say this:
Do not judge a faith based on the followers. My Christian faith is perfect, I, as human, are so far from perfect it isn't funny. Sure I try my best each day to live a life just as Jesus did; however, I always have and always will fall short.
Additionally, especially don't judge a faith based on a follower who has a blatant disregard for all of its teachings. Jesus calls us to love one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. He also said, "Let those who have no sin cast the first stone". Homosexuality is a sin no different than me lusting, lying, or stealing - in all cases people who suffer from sin are still children of Christ - nothing can separate us from that.
Finally, this person claims to be a 'baptist' minister. Ever heard of "Westboro Baptist Church"? Yea - they are the people who were going to come to the funerals here at Virginia Tech and protest in front of them! Just because a person claims to represent a faith and wears a label of some authority, does not mean he/she is speaking the truth!
-Kevin
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
More evidence that secular sources don't know jack about 'fundamental' Christianity.Originally posted by: Jeff7
Nah that's the Old Testament, and that doesn't count anymore. :laugh:Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
According to Leviticus 20 homoesexuality is punishable by death. Seems to me like he's more in line with fundamental Christianity than you are.
It's more the old laws that "don't count" than the entire OT volume. If you read the book of Hebrews, you'll find Jesus came to supplant the old law. You'll notice Christians aren't sacrificing animals these days to cover their sin. 'Fundamental' Christians don't abide by ancient Israeli laws.
What ever happened to just having faith in Jesus as your savior? Isn't that all you really need? All that other stuff is just a distraction. I mean, you're supposed to try to follow the Bible as best you can but I think the idea is that no one can do it perfectly, so you have to humbly admit that you've sinned and accept Jesus and you'll be saved.
This coming from an atheist, BTW. I don't know that much about Christianity, but that seems like the universal idea behind every Christian denomination. Going around "converting" gays or preaching about how they're evil isn't being a Christian. It's just being a douchebag.
I'd say you've got a good summation of my view as a Christian. Sin exists, we all sin, no one sin is worse than another, we all need saving and God is willing to save us all equally if we want to be saved and he respects our choice if we're not into the whole God thing.
Going around and singling out a particular group of people as sinners is stupid since we all equally sin. I need saving, they need saving, none of us are perfect so saving is in order, but it isn't because they're "bad" and I'm "good". I know plenty of gays that are better people than me.
Why do you keep trying to pull us into your creepy little world of Christian guilt? I don't need saving. I don't accept your metaphysical concept of sin as transgression against an invisible dude who watches me pee. BTW, why is it a sin for me to watch other people pee, but not for him to watch me pee?
In fact, I haven't sinned today at all. I've coveted, envied, lusted, been prideful, committed blasphemy, cursed, and later on I might even commit a little onanism. But sinned? Nope, can't say I have.
Traditional catchall answers to these questions/issues:Originally posted by: zerocool84
Why did God create homosexuals then? Why did God create cancer? Why did God create animals that went extinct? Too many more to list. For a God that is supposed to be the best thing in the universe and never messes up he sure does fuck up a lot and do a lot of fucked up things. Sad that some of you people continue to worship a "being" who kills innocent children and allows despicable things to happen to great people. I got in a horrible car crash that left me paralyzed but I'm going to thank God for not letting me get killed cus he could have never let me get in that crashed but he sure did save me.
Indeed.Also I find it funny that your religion is right and others are wrong. What's the difference between what the Greeks believed and what you believe??? Oh it's just cus they're wrong and you're right. Also don't follow the whole bible only the parts we tell you to follow.
so if you're calling homosexuality a sin, then i fail to see how your "Christian faith" is perfect.
see what I did there?
If God ever told me to do that I'd tell him/her to fuck off.
Traditional catchall answers to these questions/issues:
1) Original sin, so it's not God's fault.
2) Satan did it. God won't/can't do anything about him.
3) Free will, ie. it's our own fault that bad things happen, and God won't/can't interfere. Unless enough people pray to him, then he starts doing something, or unless he decides to send his son/himself down to Earth to die, or wipe out all sinners in a flood.
In other words, God can never lose. He's well shielded by spherical logic. (You know, because he transcends mere two-dimensional logical reasoning. )
Only every third person that reads the book comes up with their own unique interpretation of it.
And of course, it's universally known that the 'Word of God' went through multiple edits and revisions following poor reviews with test audiences and copyright violations but what the hell do us heathens know.
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
In the beginning, the OT was largely a Holy War. There was a lot of bloodshed and a lot of killing. All of this was done to prepare the way for Christ to come. It wasn't like God's finishing move. God didn't just say, "Well nothing else worked and they aren't responding, time to send in ME" - it was all to prepare the way for the Lord so that all of this might end. That we, as children of God, might be covered by his grace.
-Kevin
Originally posted by: zerocool84
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
In the beginning, the OT was largely a Holy War. There was a lot of bloodshed and a lot of killing. All of this was done to prepare the way for Christ to come. It wasn't like God's finishing move. God didn't just say, "Well nothing else worked and they aren't responding, time to send in ME" - it was all to prepare the way for the Lord so that all of this might end. That we, as children of God, might be covered by his grace.
-Kevin
So thou shall not kill means nothing if it's a holy war in the name of god right?
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Originally posted by: zerocool84
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
In the beginning, the OT was largely a Holy War. There was a lot of bloodshed and a lot of killing. All of this was done to prepare the way for Christ to come. It wasn't like God's finishing move. God didn't just say, "Well nothing else worked and they aren't responding, time to send in ME" - it was all to prepare the way for the Lord so that all of this might end. That we, as children of God, might be covered by his grace.
-Kevin
So thou shall not kill means nothing if it's a holy war in the name of god right?
That is an example of simplifying an argument to an extreme.
I don't recall the verse (I believe it to be in Romans and will check later); however, there are instances in which killing is permitted. When discussing these instances, keep in mind that we are called to "love each other as ourselves".
This is not limited to a holy war. Defending our God given rights would be a perfect example of this (ie: World War I and II). We are not attacking someone or provoking someone for personal gain - we are defending our rights, morals, and defending those who are unable to defend themselves (in WWII, the Jews).
-Kevin