Golden Age Of Gaming?

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Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
Gaming in those 25 years was more about failure, than success. You failed, and failed, and failed, until you pulled off a miracle move and finally won.. one level. Then again the same for the other 29 levels.

Fucking Ghost & Goblins.. sonofabitch! Made me so damn man, that and some Mega Man's. Probably the most upset I have ever been playing a game. Fucking computers cheat.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
Fucking Ghost & Goblins.. sonofabitch! Made me so damn man, that and some Mega Man's. Probably the most upset I have ever been playing a game. Fucking computers cheat.

HAHA. My most furious moment ever was finally beating Super Ghouls and Ghosts only for it to tell me I hadn't found the chalice and had to start from the beginning. I didn't even know I was looking for a chalice!
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
imo, everyone's "golden age" will probably be when they were in their early teens to teen years. that's when you had not a worry in the world other than playing games. and looking back those times always seemed like the best times.

In part I agree. That's when I played Lineage 2 and loved it.

But no, I think gaming fundamentally changed after that which is why I don't like it.

In Lineage 2, it's an MMO built around basically competiing with everyone there. It allows for heavy griefing, and just being MEAN in general.

Then, WoW comes out, tones everything down, removes speaking to other races, removes a LOT of the PVP out, and popularizes a much more relaxed and friendly MMO experience.

I haven't loved MMOs ever since WoW came out. The whole direction of gaming changed around that time to bring it more to the mainstream for PC gaming, and that's what killed my love of PC gaming.

For consoles, it's not my teen years.
Golden Age was just SNES for me. I liked the RPG layout.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
I would like to throw out another example -- probably getting a bit off topic, but here goes.

Mario Maker for Wii U is probably a prime example of the dumbing down of gaming.

First let me say I love this game, and have a blast creating levels and trying to beat them. I tend to make very difficult levels because well..I've been there done that, more on this below.

I see countless articles and complaints about 'hard' levels being made and that hard levels are no fun. OK I can get that, cheap shots etc can be frustrating and not for everyone.

That being said, there are a few big flaws in the thought that every level should be designed like level 1-1 of SMB (meaning walk run crawl). Firstly, we already did that, and secondly apparently people forgot about 4-4 and the lost levels. The biggest issue I have with 'normal' level making is simply this: In the real games, you had an end goal - make it through all levels. You accomplished this by occasional powerups, 1-ups, and collecting coins (eventually giving you 1-ups). There was a reason for these to be there. You explored all areas of a level to find these things to help you progress. Each level got progressively harder. In Mario Maker, each level is just a one off, you play it, you finish it, you move on. Coins and 1-ups have ZERO impact on the overall game because it all just resets on the next level you load up.

My levels generally forgo any of that simply because there is zero challenge in that and no reason to chases coins or 1-ups. We've all played hundreds of Mario levels, we know how it works. Adding something new to it to make it challenging again (with the limited tools you are given) seems like a necessary step. Exploration, while still a large part is less compelling if you have no real goal other than to finish the level and move on to the next random one you choose.

However what you find with today's gaming trend is that the majority of people don't like challenges anymore. Anything that takes effort, they just move on. All you have to do is look at the top 10 levels and realize, that isn't the case. All the top levels are 'play themselves, do nothing' levels. SMH.

While there are certainly arguments for this being the golden age of gaming, there are many aspects that simply tell me no, this is the age of easy 'fake/casual' gaming where everything else does most of the work for you, you are just along for the ride.

Disclaimer stating this doesn't apply to everyone. I am guessing there is a hard core old school crowd out there sharing their hardest levels challenging people to beat them in record time...if they can beat them at all. If they exist I haven't found them
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
As for an earlier comment about SNES graphics not scaling as good as NES... both are 256x224...

It isn't about the resolution, it is the fact that simple blocky sprites scale better than complex SNES-era ones when they are blown up on a flat panel without scanlines.

Here is a quick example, SMB1's goomba as you knew him in the 80's on a small CRT:



Now here is that same sprite blown up as if on a massive flat panel (with no scanlines):



You can still clearly see the features of the sprite, and looks just as good (better IMHO) as the small version without any emulator tricks. In fact LCD displays made up of static pixels love the NES sprite hard edges.

Here is SMW's gooba on your little CRT:



He certainly looked better than SMB1's one back in the 90's! But fast forward to today and our massive flat panel:



And it looks like a mess. Few clear features, and what looked like a lense flair on his head back in the 90's looks like a bandage on a huge flat panel. And this sprite isn't even that bad, some Final Fantasy 6 sprites look like pure noise when scaled up.

Simply put, too many 16 bit games counted on scanlines (and other CRT traits) to produce the desired look and now that scanlines are gone (unless you add them back in as a form of distortion) a lot of that stuff just looks bad. This is the reason I argue that NES games aged much better than 16 bit games.

I also debate your assertion that NES games could not have a large scale, or a ton of text. It took me almost 100 hours to beat Dragon Warrior 3 back in the day, and it was filled with countless towns of NPCs who all had something to tell me. I think SMB3 (or late NES games like Startropics 2) pretty much proved that if the developer was willing to pay to put the right hardware in the cart the NES could match the depth of any 16 bit console game.

I built a retro-console back in 2014 (basically a PC preloaded with emulators) and BY FAR my favorite old console to play today is the NES for the reasons outlined. The graphics look so clean and fantastic on my big plasma that I am not just playing game for nostalgia, I actually beat I few I never beat back in the day just because it was such a pleasant experience.
 

Fulle

Senior member
Aug 18, 2008
550
1
71
The cool thing about where we're at now, is that there are games out there that are still being made for the gaming audience that likes a challenge, as well as games for people who just want to relax.

Two of my favorite games of recent years are "Journey" and "Bloodborne". I loved Bloodborne as a great, old school, challenging game, full of depth in its lore. I have adult gamer friends who were even intiminated by its challenge, however. Journey, well, you can't even lose in Journey, its not possible. There's no enemies, really, and it's not a challenging game at all.... But it has this great art, and simple premise that would have felt more lacking without a videogame's immersiveness added to it. I have a hard time explaining Journey's appeal exactly, but the point is that its something my mother can play and enjoy.

You know, and something like the experience of my Mom playing Journey, can be a pretty big deal. Those kinds of first baby steps are what helps someone eventually get to a point where they could play more "serious" games.... My daughter's time playing Minecraft has actually made her competent at Destiny, as an example. While early NES games and stuff were "hard" in some ways, they were also simple enough for anyone to understand.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind that there are more less challenging games out now, since it helps people become gamers, and eventually some of those people might be able to enjoy more challenging games... growing the audience of people who might enjoy such a thing, and finally making it so the stuff I like to play is more likely to get a budget approval.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
The cool thing about where we're at now, is that there are games out there that are still being made for the gaming audience that likes a challenge, as well as games for people who just want to relax.

You aren't wrong.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Just for my two cents, I haven't owned a console since about 1988, and have beta tested many online PC games like EQ in the past.

Even Mech 2 using Kali before it was a online thing.

Man they really broke that one.

()
 

xantub

Senior member
Feb 12, 2014
717
1
46
Definitely now is the golden age, for several reasons:
- Availability: 20 years ago, when I wanted to play a game I had to drive (or ask someone to drive you) to the closest EB or Babbages, hoping the game was there. Now? Click download, go heat up and eat some leftover pizza, and you're gaming.
- Price: Adjusted for inflation, games were much more expensive before, $60-$80 adjusted for inflation. Now, they're mostly $60 for new releases, and if you can wait a few weeks, $40. In Windows (Steam) it's even lower.
- Multiplayer: People had to be in the same room, typically just 2 people. In the Windows part, trying to figure out how to set up the IRQs and the TCPIP ports and the config.sys usually took longer than the actual playtime. Now it's just a couple of clicks away.
- Game library: Back then games were exclusive to your console for the most part. Now you can enjoy most games regardless of what console you have. Even Windows is starting to get a lot of what used to be console exclusives.
- Game information: Buying a game used to be very hit & miss. Many of the games I paid for looked good on the box, but playing them was a different matter. If you were lucky the game was reviewed in one of the console magazines out there, and you either subscribed or sneaked a peek at your local book shop. Now you read and watch previews, reviews, "Let's Play" videos and can even watch people play live in Twitch and ask them questions as they play.
- Physical vs. digital: How many times did you finally reach Friday afternoon so you could play your favorite game and... it wouldn't start? No matter how many times you blew on the cartridge, it wouldn't work. Specially in Windows with Steam, PSN, etc. that's a thing of the past.
- Modding: This is specially important in Windows games. Many games like Skyrim, Paradox games, etc. have so many mods available, from overhauling the graphics, to adding gameplay, to making entire new games with the game's engine.

And let's not even talk about VR, since the technology is still in its infancy and the jury is still out. We've definitely come a long way from playing Duck Hunt.
 
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exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
I also debate your assertion that NES games could not have a large scale, or a ton of text. It took me almost 100 hours to beat Dragon Warrior 3 back in the day, and it was filled with countless towns of NPCs who all had something to tell me. I think SMB3 (or late NES games like Startropics 2) pretty much proved that if the developer was willing to pay to put the right hardware in the cart the NES could match the depth of any 16 bit console game.

I built a retro-console back in 2014 (basically a PC preloaded with emulators) and BY FAR my favorite old console to play today is the NES for the reasons outlined. The graphics look so clean and fantastic on my big plasma that I am not just playing game for nostalgia, I actually beat I few I never beat back in the day just because it was such a pleasant experience.

Dragon Warrior 3 was near the end of the NES life cycle when carts were starting to push 512k to 1 MB+ (How big was DW3? I can't look right now). 512k+ was a lot for a system which implemented most games in 8-64k.

Dragon Warrior 3 was awesome.

I remember stealing the poison needle at night and save scumming the hell out of the monster gambling for infinite money at the start of the game.

DW3, FF3, both were massive for 8 bit NES games being some of the first games to have 2nd world maps and such and start breaking some 8 bit memory limitations once ROM sizes started to increase, fall in price, and some more advanced mappers could be implemented to fit it in the allotted 32k PRG-ROM space.

While 1 MB or so was the largest NES ROM that came near the end of the NES, it was the start of 16 bit ROM sizes. The two biggest consumers of ROM space in the NES was text strings and level maps. And you couldn't really compress them a whole lot because you had a 1 MHz 8 bit CPU with 2K RAM, one quarter of which is reserved by the 6502 for zero page ($0000-00FF) and stack ($0100-$01FF). Then because OAM (sprites) hardware is slow to read/write or can't be accessed during VDRAW or something, and there isn't enough time to update everything in VBLANK when you can write. But there is time to DMA 256 bytes during VBLANK) so most devs would use a shadow 64 sprites x 4 bytes for OAM in RAM so there is another 256 bytes gone ($0200-$02xx) so you end up with 1280 bytes of RAM left @ $0300-$07FF.

Large blocky games like SMB can store their levels as coords of larger meta objects (pipes, bushes, clouds, block platform, etc) instead of individual tiles. Games like Dragon Warrior at best can use a fast RLE. Other than a castle or village, the non square region aligned sea and mountain tiles and stuff have to be expressed as a tile level. What I mean is mountains and grass aren't in nice 128 x 64 blocks or anything. They run diagonal and very from row to row.

I'm trying to remember what I ended up doing for my 4096 x 4096 world map scroller on the NES. This would be a grid of 512 x 512 1 byte tile indices = 256K (or 2 megabit!) JUST for the world map. For starters I think I recognized that there aren't 256 tiles, only like 8 or so (grass, sea, mountain, desert, town, forest, etc), so you can start bit packing.

If you use 4 bits per entry that cuts you down by half and gives you 16 tiles (mountain, snow, desert, grass, shallow water, deep water, forest, bridge, town, etc.) Also recognized that most of the world map is runs of the same tile, runs of ocean, runs of forest, runs of mountain, etc.

I think in the end I got my 4096 x 4096 map down to to like 20 kilobytes and it was easily parsed left to right using some combination of RLE and a skip list (which could be static and also in ROM) to aid in jumping into the middle instead of going through all 512 positions for the start of the max=33 tile wide section that could cover a row... Worse case scenario with RLE is sections with runs of 1 took up more space but these only occurred when terrain frequency increase. eg a town surrounded by water with a bridge = n row of grass -> 1 water -> 1 grass -> 1 town -> 1 grass -> 1 water -> n row of grass. I just accepted this, because features like a town or a bridge didn't happen often and you more than made up for it when you'd have a span of 30 water or 20 mountain tiles in a row.

DW3 if I recall kept out the smaller details like towns and bridges to achieve more compression of the main map, then used a SMB style object just to go back and patch in the details. I think they even did the same thing with the water + anything else combinations being patched manually on the fly so they didnt have to waste CHR-ROM with two dozen or more variations of water left of dirt, water right of dirt, water top..... water bottom of mountain, etc transitions for the white water boarders. You can also get less bits per tile index and make your world map smaller. Just think if you had water + everything else x 4 directions youd have to use a byte or more for each tile and we are back to 2 megabit world maps lol. vs a couple instructions in your RLE decode loop that could detect a transition to or from water and manually override with the appropriate tile. There was no cache or memory wait state or deep pipeline on a 1 MHz 6502 so there was no penalty for branching in loops and stuff like that.

I didn't have collisions either. You'd want to do collision info with the tile so you'd only store it once, but the NES has tile data in a separate ROM and bus on the PPU, so you need a collision map for your tile set in PRG-ROM, etc.

Ok I'll stop now... sorry.

Back to my home built PC... keyboard clock and data to 1 to 8 shift register... to pin 19 of the 8259 for IRQ1 then parallel out byte to the 8255 port A mapped at 60h...zzzzz
 
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atticus14

Member
Apr 11, 2010
174
1
81
Its really hard for me to pick a time because I think they are mostly all good in their own way, but I'll probably hold my dreamcast days through early PC days in highest regards. While I had played some PC games at friends homes online before, PSO/Quake 3 really made me realize that this is insanely fun. Once the DC community died, I bought a PS2 and I just couldn't get into it, playing single player games just didn't do anything for me anymore. I eventually was able to get a PC and Played Quake 3 and a few MMOs for the next decade and enjoyed every second of it.

Nowadays I can play singleplayer games again just fine, but I have a short attention span for some reason, I only really finished a handful of games over many years, but there are still games that immerse me like mass effect, mount and blade warband, GTA V; just a lot of different games and I still need to give a ton more a chance. Then upcoming games like StarCitizen, Bannerlord, Cyberpunk 2077 give me plenty hope for the future. They'll also be VR things that we haven't even thought about yet.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,622
2,189
126
well, i spent months swapping 5 1/4 disks in my commodore 64, just to grind XP from the monks in the Citadel, in the original Wasteland.
and LAW rockets. those things wreck scorpitrons.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Heh, I did that as well.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I was Sertsa in the Widow Makers once upon a time.

It was a pretty small community, our paths probably crossed at one time or another.

Maybe several if you were in the Grand Council ladder.
 
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foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,885
53
91
NES was my golden age of gaming. Tied with with early or mid-2000's PC gaming. Runner up xbox360 vs PS4.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
126
Without a doubt, the golden age of gaming was the second half of the 70's with Avalon Hill and Strategic Publications. There weren't any comparable computer games at the time and they required face to face interactions with at least one other person. Some games could take weeks.
 

calyco

Senior member
Oct 7, 2004
825
1
81
For console, I would agree with everyone 90s. But being primarily a PC gamer for the past like 15 years, I would say 2003 - 2008 was prob my favorite era.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,570
12,872
136
Without a doubt, the golden age of gaming was the second half of the 70's with Avalon Hill and Strategic Publications. There weren't any comparable computer games at the time and they required face to face interactions with at least one other person. Some games could take weeks.

You do realize that this thread is in the "Console Gaming" sub-forum, and the first post specifically says favorite consoles and games?
And that is absolutely NOT the golden age of gaming, people that enjoyed the sorts of games you're talking about have a different definition of "fun" than most people
 

futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,471
32
91
yeah "without a doubt" is a bit of a stretch there, sounds like the dark ages of gaming

i suspect that post was made in jest
 

futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,471
32
91
for me it was PS2/GC/Xbox era

devs had enough power to paint their pictures and dlc and microtransactions werent a thing yet
 

Lil Frier

Platinum Member
Oct 3, 2013
2,720
21
81
As much as I'm not keen to microtransactions, ripping the current generation from them really isn't sensible, IMO. Yes, they can ruin a good game (or a bad one, haha), but they're also a means of giving a game longevity. They've given us the Halo 5 maps for free, I consider that a plus after years of CoD and Battlefield Season Passes that I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. They can be done sensibly.

The other complaint seems to be half-finished and broken games now, but also remember that current gaming trends also allow for fixing of problems. Unity was a total turd, but allegedly got patched pretty well. Battlefield 4 EVENTUALLY became playable. Stuff like that was irreparable damage 20 years ago.

That, and the scope of games has changed SO DRAMATICALLY now. Creativity might not be at an all-time high, but accessibility is, and opportunity DEFINITELY is. A game like GTA V or The Witcher 3 has the complexity of the entire SNES or NES or Genesis library, really, and people are ripping modern games for not being perfect. Basically, I see it as insulting developers for trying to get better, even though there are deserved failures to justifiably trash (Project CARS, Halo: TMCC, Driveclub, Battlefield 4, etc.).

Again, I think "Golden Age" is kind of a silly term. For the most part, modern gaming isn't excluding past gaming, so the offerings of today don't stop us from playing older games now, sometimes in better forms (thanks to HD compilations). This is mostly a nostalgic circle jerk.
 

ghost recon88

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2005
6,209
1
81
I just don't find modern gaming as exciting as the 90s, even though games these days are much more complex. Too many buttons on the controllers I think :\
 

Lil Frier

Platinum Member
Oct 3, 2013
2,720
21
81
I just don't find modern gaming as exciting as the 90s, even though games these days are much more complex. Too many buttons on the controllers I think :\

Hah, that's a complaint my dad had a few years back, with Black Ops 2 on PC. He said he felt like the game had too much going on, and that he needed more buttons clustered than he had.

There are a lot of games that don't need/use the full set of controller buttons, though. You can play Forza with just one stick and two triggers, basically (assuming you're on automatic, though I play on manual). Shooters and RPGs tend to find a use for it all, though. The Wii U also still lets you survive on 4 or fewer buttons with most games.
 
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