Good book: High and Mighty: SUVs--The World's Most Dangerous Vehicles and How They Got That Way

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: PG

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Personally, I don't care what kind of vehicle a person decides to drive. My concern is the illusion that a four wheel drive vehicle with high ground clearance provides a safer driving experience. The problem seems to be driver error when there is a panic stop or loss of control. These vehicles have a high center of gravity and the wider tires can cause a driver to oversteer in an emergency situation. Rollover accidents are very common in SUV statistics.

Come on, you guys can't have it both ways. You say that SUV's are dangerous to cars....doesn't that imply that a nice big SUV is safer? So which is it?

I don't think it's quite that black and white.

SUVs are bigger, heavier and taller. Thus, if you do get into an accident in one, you're less likely to get hurt since you have more around you and the impact (assuming you've been hit by a car) is lower so you won't be taking a bumper right in the shoulder. Conversely, if you're the car getting hit by an SUV, you have less around you and the impact is relatively higher so you'll be taking that bumper in the chin and are more likely to be injured.

The variable in all this is whether or not the SUV's inherently poorer handling makes a significant contribution to avoiding/not avoiding potential wrecks. IMO, most accidents happen so fast that there's almost nothing you can do to avoid it if you happen to be in the wrong place. Additionally, most drivers probably really lack the skills to steer out of something even if they were behind the wheels of a 911. They typically just lock up the brakes in response to something happening.....that's about it.

Bigger issues with regard to SUVs/trucks are emissions and fuel efficiency (or lack thereof).

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: PsychoAndy

Originally posted by: MaDHaVoK
Yes I am in buffalo... First off it is flat here... secondly in 7 feet of snow it doesn't matter if you have 4-wheel drive, you?re not going anywhere.
Seriously though... 4 wheel drive doesn't do anything for stopping... so we have all these people who get up to speed in bad conditions and they end up sliding through lights and rear ending people because they can't stop.

Yes this is a free country... but SUVs endanger my life in a car more than a minivan or another car. Do you have a right to threaten me like that? I am not even going into SUV drivers and their skills. But as usual SUV drivers are self centered and don't care about my rights to live !

You want an SUV fine.
1. Lets get a universal bumper height for cars and SUV
This way you don?t drive right over my car and don?t strike my car at head height on the sides.
2. Lets start meeting emission standards.

Particulate or CO2? If you can believe it, the Ford Excursion (with a 6.8L V-10 no less) is a certified LEV.

-PAB

The Excursion is certified LEV because it is so big that it is no longer in the passenger vehicle category.
BTW, this is a funny read.

 

[PsychoAndy]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: PsychoAndy

Originally posted by: MaDHaVoK
Yes I am in buffalo... First off it is flat here... secondly in 7 feet of snow it doesn't matter if you have 4-wheel drive, you?re not going anywhere.
Seriously though... 4 wheel drive doesn't do anything for stopping... so we have all these people who get up to speed in bad conditions and they end up sliding through lights and rear ending people because they can't stop.

Yes this is a free country... but SUVs endanger my life in a car more than a minivan or another car. Do you have a right to threaten me like that? I am not even going into SUV drivers and their skills. But as usual SUV drivers are self centered and don't care about my rights to live !

You want an SUV fine.
1. Lets get a universal bumper height for cars and SUV
This way you don?t drive right over my car and don?t strike my car at head height on the sides.
2. Lets start meeting emission standards.

Particulate or CO2? If you can believe it, the Ford Excursion (with a 6.8L V-10 no less) is a certified LEV.

-PAB

The Excursion is certified LEV because it is so big that it is no longer in the passenger vehicle category.
BTW, this is a funny read.

The EPA requires MPG estimates on X vehicles UNDER 6000 lbs IIRC. The Ford Valdez as it is aptly named, tips the toledos over that, so its exempted from MPG estimates. AFAIK, LEV is determined by PPM particulate emissions, however it neglects the amout of CO2 generated in the process.

-PAB

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: PsychoAndy

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: PsychoAndy

Originally posted by: MaDHaVoK
Yes I am in buffalo... First off it is flat here... secondly in 7 feet of snow it doesn't matter if you have 4-wheel drive, you?re not going anywhere.
Seriously though... 4 wheel drive doesn't do anything for stopping... so we have all these people who get up to speed in bad conditions and they end up sliding through lights and rear ending people because they can't stop.

Yes this is a free country... but SUVs endanger my life in a car more than a minivan or another car. Do you have a right to threaten me like that? I am not even going into SUV drivers and their skills. But as usual SUV drivers are self centered and don't care about my rights to live !

You want an SUV fine.
1. Lets get a universal bumper height for cars and SUV
This way you don?t drive right over my car and don?t strike my car at head height on the sides.
2. Lets start meeting emission standards.

Particulate or CO2? If you can believe it, the Ford Excursion (with a 6.8L V-10 no less) is a certified LEV.

-PAB

The Excursion is certified LEV because it is so big that it is no longer in the passenger vehicle category.
BTW, this is a funny read.

The EPA requires MPG estimates on X vehicles UNDER 6000 lbs IIRC. The Ford Valdez as it is aptly named, tips the toledos over that, so its exempted from MPG estimates. AFAIK, LEV is determined by PPM particulate emissions, however it neglects the amout of CO2 generated in the process.

-PAB

link\

The Excursion is not a light truck, and therefore does not have the same LEV regulations as other SUVs.

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: MaDHaVoK
This is a good book with a lot of facts. Talks a lot about why SUVs are dangerous to cars and how the automobile industry is doing basically nothing about it. Also talks about how SUV owners are jerks, (insecure, less likely to volunteer, less likely to go to family events, ect) and no he didn't make that up, it is what Ford's, chevy's, ect own market research says abotu SUV drivers.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that it's a collection of mindless drivel aimed at SUV owners. I'm going to hold out for the sequel: Dump Trucks - REALLY The World's Most Dangerous Vehicles. I was driving to work this morning and realized that the bumper of my SUV could easily slide under the back of a dump truck. Factor in the high center of gravity (especially when they're carrying a load) and the poor braking and handling; it's a wonder that these deathtraps are permitted on the roads at all.

Sounds to me like -you're- the jerk, posting a flamebait thread like this. :frown:

 

[Fausto]

An interesting statistic for you all:

Estimated oil usage in the US for 2002: 7.2 billion barrels

Amount of imported oil: 50%

Amout of oil imported from the middle east in 2001: ~ 1 billion barrels (964 million to be exact) or about 14%

We're using up 1.2 million barrels more per day thanks to the lower fuel-efficiency of SUVs. This means an extra 400 million barrels of oil per year....almost half of what we purchase annually from the middle east. I think our policy-making with regard to the middle east would be a lot less sticky than it is now if they weren't collectively holding that trump card. I don't think that the proposed action on Iraq is "all about oil" as some have said, but I think it is certainly a factor in the decision-making....as is our relative inactivity toward Saudi Arabia (who graced us with 15 of the 19 September 11 terrorists).

Point being, sure you all have the right to purchase a drive an SUV, but at what point is this right outweighed by the need to make some sacrifices in order to somewhat extricate ourselves from the mess in the middle east?

 

[Zenmervolt]

2. Lets start meeting emission standards.

OK, what we have here is the old fallacy that emissions are somehow tied to fuel consumption. The average new SUV is cleaner than the average Economy car of 10 years ago. The exaust from an SUV is not dirtier than the exaust of a comparable automobile, there's just more of it on a per-mile basis. In terms of pollutants per gallon of fuel burned, the exaust of SUV's is not significantly different from the exaust of a small car.

ZV

 

[dolph]

actually, the next car my dad is going to get is a prius, exactly for the reason of lessening his dependency on oil. ironic that my mom drives an x5, though. and he hates it.

i hope this suv fad passes quickly... they're huge, gas guzzling, and dangerous to those around them. c'mon, everyone get a mini!

 

[Ornery]

• There's nothing like a living room on wheels, but DAMN! :Q

 

[PG]

Originally posted by: Fausto1
An interesting statistic for you all:

Estimated oil usage in the US for 2002: 7.2 billion barrels

Amount of imported oil: 50%

Amout of oil imported from the middle east in 2001: ~ 1 billion barrels (964 million to be exact) or about 14%

We're using up 1.2 million barrels more per day thanks to the lower fuel-efficiency of SUVs. This means an extra 400 million barrels of oil per year....almost half of what we purchase annually from the middle east. I think our policy-making with regard to the middle east would be a lot less sticky than it is now if they weren't collectively holding that trump card. I don't think that the proposed action on Iraq is "all about oil" as some have said, but I think it is certainly a factor in the decision-making....as is our relative inactivity toward Saudi Arabia (who graced us with 15 of the 19 September 11 terrorists).

Point being, sure you all have the right to purchase a drive an SUV, but at what point is this right outweighed by the need to make some sacrifices in order to somewhat extricate ourselves from the mess in the middle east?

I don't understand your post at all.

Where do you get that we are using "using up 1.2 million barrels more per day thanks to the lower fuel-efficiency of SUVs"??
And the word "more" in that sentence.....more compared to what? Compared to if we all drove Metros? The statistics don't mean much unless we know the whole story.

 

[NFS4]

Ahhh, yet another SUV bashing thread:|

You limp dicked SUV bashers are really a bunch of whining brats (wait, I like whining bitches better). Who gives a sh!t what SOMEONE ELSE chooses to buy with their own money????????? Who CARES if SUV's burn gas like crazy! If they can afford it, let them have at it.

You little selfish children like to ALWAYS bash SUVs when pickups are just as large (in fact, longer in most cases) than the SUVs that are based on them. They weigh nearly as much and get about the same gas mileage. Why don't you whip it out and piss on them too while you're at it?? Hell, pickups are all over the place. Ford sells about 900,000 of them a year.

Do you think I got pissed when our neighbor across the street bought a Jeep Liberty? No. Am I pissed by the fact that his wife drives the Liberty and he drives a Grand Cherokee? No.

Do I get scared when I see SUVs on the road? No. You wanna know why? B/C there are dickheads that drive SUV's, sedans, convertibles, coupes, luxoboats, sports cars, pickups, mobile homes, etc. Everyone is fair game. And if you spend all your time bitching and moaning about SUV drivers with cell phones cutting you off, it's gonna be that old lady in the Mercury Grand Marquis that t-bones you and puts you in the hospital, or the Honda Accord that rams into you from behind.

Learn to ADAPT to your surroundings instead of sounding off like a bunch of dickless pukes.

 

[tcsenter]

This is a good book with a lot of facts. Talks a lot about why SUVs are dangerous to cars and how the automobile industry is doing basically nothing about it. Also talks about how SUV owners are jerks, (insecure, less likely to volunteer, less likely to go to family events, ect) and no he didn't make that up, it is what Ford's, chevy's, ect own market research says abotu SUV drivers.

Sure it is, like another agenda-driven book 'with a lot of facts', left-wing nut Schlosser's "Fast Food Nation".

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: PG

Originally posted by: Fausto1
An interesting statistic for you all:

Estimated oil usage in the US for 2002: 7.2 billion barrels

Amount of imported oil: 50%

Amout of oil imported from the middle east in 2001: ~ 1 billion barrels (964 million to be exact) or about 14%

We're using up 1.2 million barrels more per day thanks to the lower fuel-efficiency of SUVs. This means an extra 400 million barrels of oil per year....almost half of what we purchase annually from the middle east. I think our policy-making with regard to the middle east would be a lot less sticky than it is now if they weren't collectively holding that trump card. I don't think that the proposed action on Iraq is "all about oil" as some have said, but I think it is certainly a factor in the decision-making....as is our relative inactivity toward Saudi Arabia (who graced us with 15 of the 19 September 11 terrorists).

Point being, sure you all have the right to purchase a drive an SUV, but at what point is this right outweighed by the need to make some sacrifices in order to somewhat extricate ourselves from the mess in the middle east?

I don't understand your post at all.

Where do you get that we are using "using up 1.2 million barrels more per day thanks to the lower fuel-efficiency of SUVs"??
And the word "more" in that sentence.....more compared to what? Compared to if we all drove Metros? The statistics don't mean much unless we know the whole story.

If you replaced all the SUVs on the road with cars (and their better mileage), we would be using that much less oil per day. That was unfortunately the best estimate I could come up with since I was unable to find an exact figure for how much of the oil fueling the transportation industry is used by passenger vehicles. If someone could dig up that figure we could extrapolate a more accurate yearly oil savings figure based on number of cars vs SUVs on the road and their relative average mileage figures.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: MaDHaVoK
This is a good book with a lot of facts. Talks a lot about why SUVs are dangerous to cars and how the automobile industry is doing basically nothing about it. Also talks about how SUV owners are jerks, (insecure, less likely to volunteer, less likely to go to family events, ect) and no he didn't make that up, it is what Ford's, chevy's, ect own market research says abotu SUV drivers.

Funny, I would've said the same thing about BMW and Porche owners not too long ago (a decade?). Don't blame the cars for the people.

Counter point:
My family has driven an SUV and pickup truck for about 20 years now, are we different because of it? Nope. We needed 4wd and tow capacity. You can't tow a horse trailer with a minivan and you can't go up a 30 degree dirt path (not even a road) with one either. I got a Dakota not because I wanted the image, but because I perfer the truck feel. My previous car was a Grand Prix and I always though the suspension was way too soft, I liked out '78
had because of it's rock hard suspension. I sacrificed fuel economy and the ability to cruise effortlessly for long periods of time. But I'd make the decision again. (I would've gotten a Firebird if I could afford the insurance and the extra $5k of the price).

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Ornery

• There's nothing like a living room on wheels, but DAMN! :Q

And at a base ~$30K it's a bargain. Just think, these things will be the Jeep Wagoneers 20 years from now. Pile the soccer team in and head to the pizza joint.

The depreciation is horrible, I think most people realize -after- they buy one that it really is more vehicle than they need and they get dumped on the market. I may try to pick one up a few years from now, low mileage, and treat it like a motor home for the family to use on vacations.

 

[NFS4]

If you replaced all the SUVs on the road with cars (and their better mileage), we would be using that much less oil per day. That was unfortunately the best estimate I could come up with since I was unable to find an exact figure for how much of the oil fueling the transportation industry is used by passenger vehicles. If someone could dig up that figure we could extrapolate a more accurate yearly oil savings figure based on number of cars vs SUVs on the road and their relative average mileage figures.

Why don't we all just drive Honda Civics then? They're good on gas. Hell, lets get rid of all the pickups too. The suck up SOOOOOOOO much gas. Hell, nobody needs pickups. No one needs SUVs either, right?

Stop sounding off like a selfish tree-hugger.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: NFS4
Ahhh, yet another SUV bashing thread:|

You limp dicked SUV bashers are really a bunch of whining brats (wait, I like whining bitches better). Who gives a sh!t what SOMEONE ELSE chooses to buy with their own money????????? Who CARES if SUV's burn gas like crazy! If they can afford it, let them have at it.

You little selfish children like to ALWAYS bash SUVs when pickups are just as large (in fact, longer in most cases) than the SUVs that are based on them. They weigh nearly as much and get about the same gas mileage. Why don't you whip it out and piss on them too while you're at it?? Hell, pickups are all over the place. Ford sells about 900,000 of them a year.

Do you think I got pissed when our neighbor across the street bought a Jeep Liberty? No. Am I pissed by the fact that his wife drives the Liberty and he drives a Grand Cherokee? No.

Do I get scared when I see SUVs on the road? No. You wanna know why? B/C there are dickheads that drive SUV's, sedans, convertibles, coupes, luxoboats, sports cars, pickups, mobile homes, etc. Everyone is fair game. And if you spend all your time bitching and moaning about SUV drivers with cell phones cutting you off, it's gonna be that old lady in the Mercury Grand Marquis that t-bones you and puts you in the hospital, or the Honda Accord that rams into you from behind.

Learn to ADAPT to your surroundings instead of sounding off like a bunch of dickless pukes.

Two hours and 19 minutes. You're slipping, bud. We were halfway to putting everyone on Segways until you arrived and saved the day with that gleaming bolt of logic and sent us scurrying on our bicycles back to our tents and yak dung fires.

 

[Ornery]

"Why don't you whip it out and piss on them too while you're at it??"

• Heh heh

Honestly, the only fair way to take care of the oil dependence is by imposing a gasoline rationing system. I have a feeling the soccer moms would still be able to use an SUV and not go over their quotas. Ooh, wouldn't that chafe your econobox lovin' ass?

 

[PsychoAndy]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: PsychoAndy

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: PsychoAndy

Originally posted by: MaDHaVoK
Yes I am in buffalo... First off it is flat here... secondly in 7 feet of snow it doesn't matter if you have 4-wheel drive, you?re not going anywhere.
Seriously though... 4 wheel drive doesn't do anything for stopping... so we have all these people who get up to speed in bad conditions and they end up sliding through lights and rear ending people because they can't stop.

Yes this is a free country... but SUVs endanger my life in a car more than a minivan or another car. Do you have a right to threaten me like that? I am not even going into SUV drivers and their skills. But as usual SUV drivers are self centered and don't care about my rights to live !

You want an SUV fine.
1. Lets get a universal bumper height for cars and SUV
This way you don?t drive right over my car and don?t strike my car at head height on the sides.
2. Lets start meeting emission standards.

Particulate or CO2? If you can believe it, the Ford Excursion (with a 6.8L V-10 no less) is a certified LEV.

-PAB

The Excursion is certified LEV because it is so big that it is no longer in the passenger vehicle category.
BTW, this is a funny read.

The EPA requires MPG estimates on X vehicles UNDER 6000 lbs IIRC. The Ford Valdez as it is aptly named, tips the toledos over that, so its exempted from MPG estimates. AFAIK, LEV is determined by PPM particulate emissions, however it neglects the amout of CO2 generated in the process.

-PAB

link\

The Excursion is not a light truck, and therefore does not have the same LEV regulations as other SUVs.

Interesting. I thought it was a combination of factors rather than just different vehicle classifications.

-PAB

 

[ToBeMe]

If you replaced all the SUVs on the road with cars (and their better mileage), we would be using that much less oil per day. That was unfortunately the best estimate I could come up with since I was unable to find an exact figure for how much of the oil fueling the transportation industry is used by passenger vehicles. If someone could dig up that figure we could extrapolate a more accurate yearly oil savings figure based on number of cars vs SUVs on the road and their relative average mileage figures.

You drive what works for you and I'll drive what works for me! I live in the country, have a long private road, pull a horse trailer and a boat, and have three kids. I also use it for hunting trips to CO & WY. The thing is full about 90% of the time and there is no vehicle (except my 1 ton 4 door pickup) that could/can replace it and the pickup gets worse mileage than the Yukon by quite a bit! Stop looking at YOUR needs and consider other peoples are quite different!

 

[PlatinumGold]

I can spend my money how I want.

Go out and try to buy a Nuke, see how the government reacts to that. sure that's an extreme case, but that's why we elect government, to help us decide what is in the public interest and what isn't. do we have to be careful and not give the government too much power, YES, but should we automatically dismiss all govt. intervention??

70% (no link here, purely my own figure) of SUV's are bought for all the wrong reasons. They are not safer for family, wifes and children. Women are not better off driving and SUV over a minivan or a Large sedan. They are not better in snow, BECAUSE most people that drive the SUV's don't know the first thing about 4 wheel drive and traction. (example, i knew someone that drove a 4x4 and would hit the brakes REAL hard in icy conditions claiming that his truck was 4x4. i guess it never occurred to him ALL automobiles have 4 wheels on the ground when braking, and have a 4x4 didn't make him any less susceptible to skidding than any other vehicle.) SUV's do present a danger to other drivers.

Most of the reasons for dangers caused by SUV's are DRIVER RELATED and DRIVER CAUSED, i realize this BUT it's also a function of marketing. these drivers are led to believe that they are SAFER in an SUV vehicle thereby putting others at risk.

Everyone is entitled to OWN and drive an SUV, BUT SUV purchases should also include some training on the dangers and subtleties of driving larger 4x4 vehicles.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Ornery

• There's nothing like a living room on wheels, but DAMN! :Q

Actually, Ford is discontinuing the Excursion I believe.

Some of you have to realize that there are families out there with more than your average 2.4 children (mine included) and we aren't going to fit into some damn prius.

 

[BooneRebel]

If you replaced all the SUVs on the road with cars (and their better mileage), we would be using that much less oil per day. That was unfortunately the best estimate I could come up with since I was unable to find an exact figure for how much of the oil fueling the transportation industry is used by passenger vehicles. If someone could dig up that figure we could extrapolate a more accurate yearly oil savings figure based on number of cars vs SUVs on the road and their relative average mileage figures.

I don't think you get it. Oil (like most markets) is driven by supply and demand. OPEC sets the price per barrel so that they get an agreeable profit. If the world demand of oil dropped by 50%, after a sudden shakedown of the markets, the price per barrel would increase until they're comfortable with it again. If you're sitting on billions of barrels of oil, it really doesn't make much difference to you if you sell 1 for $40, 2 for $20 ea., or 4 for $10 ea., the net income is pretty much the same. If the price of gas in the US goes to $4/gal then yes, people will park their SUVs and start looking for economy cars just as we did during the oil embargos of the 70s. But right now we don't have to, so we won't. We're a product of our environment. Right now we are a relatively rich country and we can afford luxury items like 2-3 ton SUVs. If you don't like it, don't drive one. But you are in the U.S. Get used to people thinking and acting different than you.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: NFS4

If you replaced all the SUVs on the road with cars (and their better mileage), we would be using that much less oil per day. That was unfortunately the best estimate I could come up with since I was unable to find an exact figure for how much of the oil fueling the transportation industry is used by passenger vehicles. If someone could dig up that figure we could extrapolate a more accurate yearly oil savings figure based on number of cars vs SUVs on the road and their relative average mileage figures.

Why don't we all just drive Honda Civics then? They're good on gas. Hell, lets get rid of all the pickups too. The suck up SOOOOOOOO much gas. Hell, nobody needs pickups. No one needs SUVs either, right?

Stop sounding off like a selfish tree-hugger.

It's not a matter of hugging trees or me telling people what to drive. Kindly read all my posts carefully and tell me where I insisted that we all drive tiny econo-cars. I didn't, did I? I was merely putting the theoretical alternative out there for everyone to consider and discuss. I happen to think our nation would be in better shape right now if not for our dependence on middle eastern oil and driving smaller cars is one obvious choice to achieve this goal. No one said anything about mandating smaller cars. I'm just surprised sometimes that more people aren't making this choice.

So stop sounding off like such a hyper-defensive spaz everytime the SUV question comes up. Face the facts: they use a buttload of gas. Gas is made from oil. A lot of our oil comes from the middle east. A lot of middle east countries are scumbag nations we wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole if we didn't need their oil so much. If people drove more fuel-efficient vehicles we wouldn't need as much oil. No more (or at least less) footsie with the middle east. This would be a good thing.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Since most of you-all will be around in 40 years, you should take a gander @ this: "The Hydrogen Economy" by Jeremy Rifkin...