Good Bye, Ashli Babbitt

[WelshBloke]

Sorry but this is just fucking silly. Don't start turning into a dumbass trying to placate these assholes. They came from a rally literally calling for violence, while marching in a group of people chanting about murdering politicians, while on their way to where the politicians are. These were not bumbling Mr Magoos oblivious to what was happening. They were taking pics because they wanted to brag about being a part of that.

Do you think everyone there was willing to beat a policeman to death or hang a politician?

 

[IronWing]

Do you think everyone there was willing to beat a policeman to death or hang a politician?

It depends on when you might have asked that question of them. Last Monday, most would have probably said, "no." Wednesday afternoon, "Hell Yes!" Thursday morning, "Who me?"

 

[Sunburn74]

Do you think everyone there was willing to beat a policeman to death or hang a politician?

Mob mentality is a strange thing. Think back to lynchings in the 1930s-1950 or gang rapes or whatever. People don't go in planning to commit horrible crimes but when you see your colleagues doing them it normalizes it for you and sanitizes it. Hey if he's doing it it must be ok. The idea that someone was a good person before is irrelevant when it comes to these types of mob crimes.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Do you think everyone there was willing to beat a policeman to death or hang a politician?

Everyone there willing to murder that day? Obviously not. Lets get a bit more nuanced.

Culpable by association?

Depends on which "there" you are talking about:

At the Rally: No
Walking towards the Building: No
Early on, Outside the Buildings: No
Still there after the assault on the police started: Yes.
Inside the building after the police were brutally assaulted: Fuck Yes.

Once you are still there after Mob violence started, IMO your are guilty as hell for whatever that Mob does.

Any reasonable person would have left when the Mob violence started.

If you stick around for Mob violence, you are supporting Mob violence, and should be held to account for that Mobs violence.

 

[WelshBloke]

Everyone there willing to murder that day? Obviously not. Lets get a bit more nuanced.

Culpable by association?

Depends on which "there" you are talking about:

At the Rally: No
Walking towards the Building: No
Early on, Outside the Buildings: No
Still there after the assault on the police started: Yes.
Inside the building after the police were brutally assaulted: Fuck Yes.

Once you are still there after Mob violence started, IMO your are guilty as hell for whatever that Mob does.

Any reasonable person would have left when the Mob violence started.

If you stick around for Mob violence, you are supporting Mob violence, and should be held to account for that Mobs violence.

See I've been on loads of protests and some that people would class as riots (depending on how against the cause of the protest) and its pretty much impossible to know whats happening outside of your immediate vicinity.
Someone could well have done something terrible at a protest that I was at and I'd not have known and I'd have carried on waving a banner and sitting in in the occupied building!
That doesn't mean that I'd do those actions or support them!

 

[Stokely]

Mob mentality is a strange thing. Think back to lynchings in the 1930s-1950 or gang rapes or whatever. People don't go in planning to commit horrible crimes but when you see your colleagues doing them it normalizes it for you and sanitizes it. Hey if he's doing it it must be ok. The idea that someone was a good person before is irrelevant when it comes to these types of mob crimes.

That's exactly right. Every single one of those people were well aware of the threats of violence being made by these various groups (the big noose and the assault rifles on banners were additional clues). A group of people can do terrible things that few if any of the individuals would do if they were alone.

Bottom line though, if nothing else there are laws against breaking into the Capitol (or other govt buildings). Anyone who broke those laws, regardless of why they went in, is subject to those laws. For the other crimes that happened (killing of cops for example) I'm sure people will face even more serious charges, this is how it should be no matter who committed them.

In any case ignorance has never been a good defense. Doesn't work when you didn't know the speed limit, it shouldn't work here--not that I believe any of those people were truly ignorant of what was going on. They were there for a god damn revolution, doesn't matter how misguided and retarded an attempt it was.

If Grandmas for crippled kittens busted in there because they don't like how cats are treated, off to jail they'd go too.

 

[Bumrush99]

Do you think everyone there was willing to beat a policeman to death or hang a politician?

Yet some people have no problem throwing young black men in prison for life if someone they commit a crime with goes batshit crazy and kills someone, even to their horror.

So yes, guilt by association is something the court system encourages. If you attend a mob rally of seditious traitors and someone gets killed you should be liable based on the standard mentioned above.

 

[Sunburn74]

Yet some people have no problem throwing young black men in prison for life if someone they commit a crime with goes batshit crazy and kills someone, even to their horror.

So yes, guilt by association is something the court system encourages. If you attend a mob rally of seditious traitors and someone gets killed you should be liable based on the standard mentioned above.

Agree.
If I throw an illegal party that gets out of hand and someone gets killed (let's say a drug overdose) I go to jail. These are very common charges in america. The key is that the party was illegal and not supposed to happen. The same here. If you're rushing thr capitol and breaking police lines and someone gets killed, there is certainly liability to be had for that.

 

[WelshBloke]

Yet some people have no problem throwing young black men in prison for life if someone they commit a crime with goes batshit crazy and kills someone, even to their horror.

So yes, guilt by association is something the court system encourages. If you attend a mob rally of seditious traitors and someone gets killed you should be liable based on the standard mentioned above.

I don't agree with the court doing that to young black men and I've always been against it. I can't suddenly support it just because people I find despicable are now targeted by it.

 

[Zorba]

I get that their cause was batshit but public protest isn't a problem.
Waving flags and cganting is fine. I'd give a pass at peacefully occupying government buildings and having sit ins as well.

Beating people to death and searching for public figures to capture and do who knows what are way, way over the line.

This wasn't a fucking sit in. They beat cops to get there. They smash windows and doors to get there. Every one there knew violence was caused to get in and violence against congress was the goal.

I'd be fine if every piece of shit that entered that building spent the rest of their lives in jail. I'd also be fine if many of them were put in front of a firing squad (certainly not all).

I'll give a much bigger pass to those on the grounds that didn't enter.

 

[WelshBloke]

They beat cops to get there.

I've already said that the people that beat the police needed to do to jail for a long time.

 

[Heartbreaker]

This wasn't a fucking sit in. They beat cops to get there. They smash windows and doors to get there. Every one there knew violence was caused to get in and violence against congress was the goal.

I'd be fine if every piece of shit that entered that building spent the rest of their lives in jail. I'd also be fine if many of them were put in front of a firing squad (certainly not all).

I'll give a much bigger pass to those on the grounds that didn't enter.

I wouldn't go quite that far:

I hope there is good internal/external security cameras to fill in the gaps to cover the released footage.

Externally:
Anyone within sightline of the police attacks, that didn't leave when it started: Assault charges.
Anyone within sightline of the police attacks, where the officer died: Manslaughter to Murder charges. (Happy to see many life sentences here).

Additionally:

Internally:
Assault chargers as above: Hard to argue they were unaware of violence it took to breach at this point.
Everyone, at minimum whatever criminal trespass charges they can muster, along with whatever additional individual charges can be made (Weapons, theft, destruction of government property etc). I don't expect life sentences here, unless we can can catch them near the police murder scene as above.

 

[Zorba]

I've already said that the people that beat the police needed to do to jail for a long time.

And the 1000s that stood around and watched or took advantage? Literally no one walked into that building thinking they were supposed to be there.

Also the end goal matters. Fighting for trees or equality isn't illegal in itself. Insurrection (the goal of the entire protest) is illegal to start with. At a minimum they were trying for an American version of the Nazi "Enabling Act" passage.

 

[Zorba]

I wouldn't go quite that far:

I hope there is good internal/external security cameras to fill in the gaps to cover the released footage.

Externally:
Anyone within sightline of the police attacks, that didn't leave when it started: Assault charges.
Anyone within sightline of the police attacks, where the officer died: Manslaughter to Murder charges. (Happy to see many life sentences here).

Additionally:

Internally:
Assault chargers as above: Hard to argue they were unaware of violence it took to breach at this point.
Everyone, at minimum whatever criminal trespass charges they can muster, along with whatever additional individual charges can be made (Weapons, theft, destruction of government property etc). I don't expect life sentences here, unless we can can catch them near the police murder scene as above.

You are forgetting insurrection or seditious conspiracy and terrorism.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

www.law.cornell.edu

I also said I wouldn't care if they got like, not that they will or have enough charges to get life.

Beyond the cops, multiple reporters were attacked. And zero chance anyone entered that building without noticing violence and property destruction were used to enter it.

 

[WelshBloke]

And the 1000s that stood around and watched or took advantage? Literally no one walked into that building thinking they were supposed to be there.

My point is that you can't treat people that entered a building and took selfies the same as people who entered a building and killed people.

Also the end goal matters. Fighting for trees or equality isn't illegal in itself. Insurrection (the goal of the entire protest) is illegal to start with. At a minimum they were trying for an American version of the Nazi "Enabling Act" passage.

I'm not up on what the criminal laws in the USA say about the aims of the "protest" so I can't comment there.

 

[WelshBloke]

Internally:
Assault chargers as above: Hard to argue they were unaware of violence it took to breach at this point.

I don't think that's true. Many people assumed that the police just stood aside and let them in because of the footage, and in a crowded protest its really hard to see more than a couple of people away from you.

 

[Zorba]

My point is that you can't treat people that entered a building and took selfies the same as people who entered a building and killed people.


I'm not up on what the criminal laws in the USA say about the aims of the "protest" so I can't comment there.

Everyone entering that building was part of a seditious conspiracy. They weren't doing a sit in to protest tree harvesting permits.

Put another way, everyone there had an illegal goal in mind when they showed up.

I really have no sympathy for a bunch of SA wanna bed that were trying to install a dictator. And neither should the legal system.

 

[BoomerD]

What crimes can the U.S. Capitol rioters be charged with?

Dozens of supporters of U.S. President Donald Trump have been criminally charged in connection with the violent storming of the U.S. Capitol building earlier this week, and many more cases are expected.

www.reuters.com

 

[Zorba]

I don't think that's true. Many people assumed that the police just stood aside and let them in because of the footage, and in a crowded protest its really hard to see more than a couple of people away from you.

And none of them saw the flash bangs on the steps and all the broken windows and glass? And they all thought it was perfectly fine to just go inside the fucking capitol?

Give me a break, this isn't some random town hall meeting.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Do you think everyone there was willing to beat a policeman to death or hang a politician?

Doesn't matter as they would have cheered it on while it was happening, and likely would have partaken if someone else initiated it. You acting like they're a group of people just visiting thinking they're being invited in is so fucking ridiculous I have to ask if your account was hijacked.

I don't think that's true. Many people assumed that the police just stood aside and let them in because of the footage, and in a crowded protest its really hard to see more than a couple of people away from you.

Yeah, a crowd that has been screaming about how they're not allowed to group together in buildings suddenly was like "oh yes, we're being invited it, oh wow I'm stepping on broken doors and glass, gee that's some great hospitality look at them just inviting us in, what a warm welcome, oh well where is every body? No I mean, where is every body, we would like to murder them, very politely please? Pretty please?" now let me just get a selfie with the VP while we string him up.

You're not this fucking stupid, dude.

I don't know if you haven't watched basically any of the actual footage, if you just suffered a serious brain trauma, or what, but its interesting that you're "there's some very fine people in there, they shouldn't all be punished for following along as the pied piper said "let's go kill some politicians""

Hell that you're arguing the people that went to DC to the Turmp rally under that premise at all, let alone the ones that went from the rally over to the Capitol and everything that followed is so hilarious its like you either decided to troll as devil's advocate or you found out your child was involved and are trying to make up a cover story so you can believe they weren't actually trying to overthrow the government.

Just what the fuck.

 

[darkswordsman17]

My point is that you can't treat people that entered a building and took selfies the same as people who entered a building and killed people.


I'm not up on what the criminal laws in the USA say about the aims of the "protest" so I can't comment there.

Oh well shit. "Gee your honor, sure I was there chanting to kill them and had a noose and knife ready to, but I couldn't find them so I took a selfie instead, I didn't mean any actual harm!"

Fucking dumb.

 

[Viper1j]

Do you think everyone there was willing to beat a policeman to death or hang a politician?

Do you really think everyone standing in the building holding a gun intended to rob the bank?

Maybe some of them were just showing off, right?

 

[MtnMan]

The very fact that you're confused is the fucking problem.

These people committed FAR WORSE crimes than the black people. That's why people are talking about harsh punishments.

If you cannot understand the difference that's on you. It is fucking insane for you to be arguing like this. It shows you fundamentally do not get the most basic premise of these situations and why people are condemning black people being fucking murdered for not actually breaking any law, but white people literally fucking trying to overthrow the government based on lies are not even having guns pulled on them in the first place. One white person out of thousands was shot, meanwhile one black person (LOTs of instances of it being a kid or a woman) surrounded by several large armed men gets shot/beaten to death.

Either you're a racist but simply too fucking stupid to realize it, you're just simply too stupid to understand quite simple arguments, or you're full of shit and are pulling the old "I'm not a conservative, I don't even support them! But...." nonsense. That's on you to deal with and I sure as shit am not going to placate your ego. Take your apparent soul searching somewhere else because you're literally arguing like a dumbass Q Anon conservative.

Hell, just listen to the motherfuckers and what they view as appropriate sentence for their behavior. But let me guess somehow BLM is just the same, right?

This!

Trump is America's Hitler. He and his followers need to be totally squashed or they will simply regroup and come back with a better plan, just like Hitler did a decade prior to his eventual rise to power.

You put a rabid dog down. It's that simple.

 

[hal2kilo]

My point is that you can't treat people that entered a building and took selfies the same as people who entered a building and killed people.


I'm not up on what the criminal laws in the USA say about the aims of the "protest" so I can't comment there.

Completely disagree. Any true Americans whose stomachs haven't been turned by seeing a mob descending of the capitol specifically to thwart the wheels of democracy needs to read some history. None of this is acceptable period. Maybe you know who this guy is, but, he's completely right.
Arnold Schwarzenegger compares Capitol attack to Kristallnacht in viral video - CNET

 

[MtnMan]

My point is that you can't treat people that entered a building and took selfies the same as people who entered a building and killed people.


I'm not up on what the criminal laws in the USA say about the aims of the "protest" so I can't comment there.

If you entered that building after witnessing these criminals breaking down barriers, fighting with cops, smashing windows to get in for a fucking selfie, you are a fucking criminal, or too fucking stupid to breath on your own.

Stop enabling them by making fucking excuses.