Good shoot or murder?

[CitizenKain]

Go fuck yourself proggie scumbag.

For a corpse worshiper you sure are talking tough.

 

[blankslate]

Would your opinion change if you knew the shooter had an extensive felony criminal record? I am betting the shooter has a record and that is why they are holding him. If he has a record, he can't legally have a gun. If he can't legally have a gun, he ultimately can be charged and imprisoned for that.

The article isn't very long and if he was carrying when he should not have been then imo he should only be charged with that. And not murder. The article doesn't give details that indicate anything other than a justified self-defense shooting. If you know that the article isn't 100% accurate then you should post that evidence.



Unlike inveterate dipshit fucktarded peoplewho need remedial education and should be chemically castrated like Spidey et. al. I'm not hardline pro-guns for everyone or think that all guns should be banned.

In this case, looking at the link in the OP it does look like a case of justified self-defense. If you have evidence that says otherwise you should post it.



.....

 

[highland145]

2. that's the point, if your're using full strength, one maybe two blows should be enough to cause serious head trauma or even kill.

I already pointed out thet that dead girl's aunt said she was the bat swinger.


And who gives a crap. I'm sure you would have stood there like a good victim.

 

[shortylickens]

Unlike Florida where every shooting is good, the law is much tougher up here in Wisconsin.

This sounds like a legit shoot but the guy is being help on 1st deg murder charges.



http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/...ens-during-beating-b99224501z1-250188151.html

Uhh, not hardly.

The questionable shootings are the only ones that make the news. The cut and dry murders (which are incredibly frequent in FL) are not given attention by the media. Its so common it doesnt qualify as News.

 

[Arkaign]

I'm glad I live in Texas. I beat the ever living shit out of a douchebag in Walmart after he kicked his toddler down and then kicked the baby while he lay there crying. The cops who came even told off the manager after she wanted me to leave the store without finishing my shopping. This guy wouldn't have even been detained here for more than the time it took to get the statements from everyone.

 

[RampantAndroid]

939.48(2)(c)(c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.

"with intent" is they key here. They have to prove intent. Same reason Zimmerman went free. The article makes no indication that he provoked the argument, let alone provoked it INTENDING to use it as an excuse to shoot them. Starting the argument is not sufficient to make this statute come into play.

 

[shira]

The maintenance man has been released.

Janitor suspected of killing Milwaukee teens is released from jail

Read more from Journal Sentinel: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/j...#ixzz2vxdytw8U

The gun-rights advocate quoted in that story actually sounds rational about the use of deadly force:

Nik Clark, president of Wisconsin Carry Inc., a gun rights advocacy group, said Friday that most concealed-carry permit classes stress several conditions any gun owner must consider before using deadly force.

"Be innocent of instigation, don't start anything," he said, and retreat if possible.

If retreat is not possible, Clark said, calculate the disparity of force. For example, he said, it might not be justified for him to shoot a frail, elderly woman even if she attacked him with a bat. But the opposite scenario would likely favor justified deadly force, he said.

Lastly, grave danger must be imminent, like someone advancing with a knife from closer than 20 feet. A knife-wielding assailant 100 feet away would not pose imminent grave danger, Clark said.

Spidey would shoot-to-kill any trespasser on his property that seemed the least bit threatening, even someone who was retreating.

 

[rpsgc]

Spidey would shoot-to-kill any trespasser on his property that seemed the least bit threatening, even someone who was retreating.

Retreating is just advancing the other way.

 

[kage69]

I'm glad I live in Texas. I beat the ever living shit out of a douchebag in Walmart after he kicked his toddler down and then kicked the baby while he lay there crying.

Good man. It really sucks having to get involved in crap like that, but sometimes there is no choice. I had a similar situation develop in a mall parking lot once, back in Pensacola. It was the only time I ever heard my girlfriend skip the lecture on the barbarity of violence and instead say something like " you should have snapped his shit before the cops showed up!"
I made a point of not pummeling him in front of his wife and two small daughters, but I had no qualms about having him eat some pavement while I kept his shoulder right at point of dislocation. His girls still got upset, but the wife never said a thing to me and I was told later by one of the responding officers that she wanted him to thank me. Missed our movie, but was rewarded with some great sex later. Turns out even pacifist women can get all hot n bothered watching their man dish out an attitude adjustment, who knew?

Heard later from another cop the bastard who slaps and throws 2yr old girls around was Navy, and got a dishonorable not long after that. Good riddance, hopefully he either got his shit together or was handed divorce papers. I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I had to, and would like to think any decent guy would have done the same thing in my shoes. Your Walmart encounter makes me feel a little more validated I guess. My little brother told our mother about that incident and all I heard from her for almost a year was how out of line I am for wanting to interfere in the lives of others. Nice huh?

 

[shortylickens]

I'm glad I live in Texas. I beat the ever living shit out of a douchebag in Walmart after he kicked his toddler down and then kicked the baby while he lay there crying. The cops who came even told off the manager after she wanted me to leave the store without finishing my shopping. This guy wouldn't have even been detained here for more than the time it took to get the statements from everyone.

:badass:

 

[rommelrommel]

Spidey would shoot-to-kill any trespasser on his property that seemed the least bit threatening, even someone who was retreating.

Depends, is he drawing something from waistband as he's moving?

 

[Fern]

I never implied that it is reasonable to stand getting your ass kicked, risking your health and life just to spare the life of a violent criminal. However if upon producing your gun they backed off and started to flee then shooting them would no longer be self-defense but vengeance. Still, there's nothing wrong in making the world a safer place.

If they started to flee they would have had their backs to the shooter.

I don't think claiming self defense is going to be successful if the person was shot in the back. (Unless you were shooting to defend a 3rd person; it might be possible then.)

If they somehow managed to backpedal like an NFL defensive back the shooter would likely still have problems. Ballistics can tell the distance of the shoot. In the absence of them also having a gun, the further away they were the less likely a claim of self defense will be successful.

Fern

 

[deadken]

...
Do we have Trayvon/Zimmerman 2.0 on the way now? A guy on the ground fearing for his life had to use deadly force to stop the attack. I guess we'll find out soon if he was white.

I've read a lot of stupid comments in this thread, but I think that this must take first prize...

Do you seriously think that:
1) Zimmerman did not initiate the conflict?
2) Do you think that the 911 operator did not tell him to back off and let the police handle it?
3) Do you think that when one guy with a gun chases (first in a car, and then on foot) a kid through that kids own neighborhood and gets close enough for the kid to pounce on him that is the same as when 2 guys and a girl with a bat go after a armed maintenance worker?

If Zimmerman and Trayvon were both black, I'd still think that Zimmerman was an ahole with a chip on his shoulder who went looking for trouble and found it. It's just a shame that Zimmerman didn't get killed in that altercation.

I don't know why, but something tells me that this maintenance worker won't be at gun shows signing autographs for 'fans'.

Unfortunately no State in this union is exempt from stupidity. There will always be people who act against the law. Some areas might have more than others, but I don't think any State is exempt.

I did find it interesting that the Aunt is supposedly leaving (some say being evicted, she says leaving on her own will) and that the girl and guy killed don't have a place to live and occasionally lived with the Aunt along with their kids. I'm just wondering if tensions had been brewing about the (4) of them staying in an apartment rented to just the one Aunt? Perhaps that is what the argument started over?

@ highland145: I see you have said twice that the Aunt stated that the girl swung the bat. While I am not saying that the girl didn't swing the bat, I am saying that the only thing I saw that the Aunt said about it was "AND I HEARD SHE HIT HIM WITH A BAT" (that was cut from the transcript of the video linked below, click 'show transcript' and it is a little more than half way down). Could you cite where you saw or heard the Aunt say that girl swung the bat?

Read more: http://www.wisn.com/Police-release-...-by-maintenance-worker/24969716#ixzz2wA8IyQ3Z

 

[Kadarin]

939.48(2)(c)(c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.

I would like to know why self-defense is a "privilege" and not a right.

 

[Jaskalas]

Do you seriously think that:
1) Zimmerman...

There's a thread for that. Have fun.

 

[deadken]

There's a thread for that. Have fun.

Thanks for the information. But, I was asking kage69 a question pertaining to his statement about Zimmerman in this thread. Therefore, I'll keep my questions pertaining to it right here in this thread.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I would like to know why self-defense is a "privilege" and not a right.

Because Wisconsin...it switches between liberal and conservative, and *most* liberal states thing self defense is a privilege, not a right. To be fair, my state, WA, is pretty liberal and has some great defense laws. We don't have stand your ground by name, but we have no duty to retreat, etc.

But that's a topic for another thread, I think.

 

[RampantAndroid]

It's just a shame that Zimmerman didn't get killed in that altercation.

It's a shame you're posting on these forums wishing death on someone.

 

[spidey07]

Because Wisconsin...it switches between liberal and conservative, and *most* liberal states thing self defense is a privilege, not a right. To be fair, my state, WA, is pretty liberal and has some great defense laws. We don't have stand your ground by name, but we have no duty to retreat, etc.

But that's a topic for another thread, I think.

Probably. No duty to retreat is stand you ground.

The no duty to retreat likely only applies to you castle in your fucked up state.

 

[deadken]

It's a shame you're posting on these forums wishing death on someone.

To be clear I wasn't wishing death on someone.

Re-reading that snippet, I can see how it could come off that way when separated from the rest of the writing. To be clear, my point was that the victim got killed and the aggressor is alive and signing autographs for 'fans'. It's a shame that the aggressor didn't wasn't the one who died in this altercation. Of course, that is only my opinion.

 

[kage69]

I've read a lot of stupid comments in this thread, but I think that this must take first prize...

Do you seriously think that:
1) Zimmerman did not initiate the conflict?
2) Do you think that the 911 operator did not tell him to back off and let the police handle it?
3) Do you think that when one guy with a gun chases (first in a car, and then on foot) a kid through that kids own neighborhood and gets close enough for the kid to pounce on him that is the same as when 2 guys and a girl with a bat go after a armed maintenance worker?

If Zimmerman and Trayvon were both black, I'd still think that Zimmerman was an ahole with a chip on his shoulder who went looking for trouble and found it. It's just a shame that Zimmerman didn't get killed in that altercation.

Fascinating.




Anyway, I will say that I think it's a shame Trayvon chose to be a drug-addled bully intent on using his fists instead of his brain. A cop wannabe out-stepping his role is in no way shape or form grounds for ambush and life threatening attacks, it's that simple.

 

[deadken]

Fascinating.

Anyway, I will say that I think it's a shame Trayvon chose to be a drug-addled bully intent on using his fists instead of his brain. A cop wannabe out-stepping his role is in no way shape or form grounds for ambush and life threatening attacks, it's that simple.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic. Perhaps we read or received different information pertaining to this situation. I have no idea why you'd call Trayvon a bully. It is my understanding that he was followed / chased through his housing development. I don't understand why you think that he wasn't allowed to stand his ground by stopping an imminent threat to his safety? Didn't he try to retreat? Even altering his course, during his retreat, so that the threat in the car couldn't continue following him? How could he be "intent on using his fists" while retreating?

You avoided answering 3 simple questions I asked about a statement you made. I purposely made them Yes / No questions to keep it simple. I get it... You don't have answers you want to share in public. I can understand why you'd be ashamed of what you said and not want to reveal yourself further. You didn't have to reply and avoid my questions. If you didn't, this would have died out. I would have less information on which to base my opinion of you and therefore I would have continued giving you the benefit of doubt. Instead you continued, you wriggled, you squirmed, you dodged, and yet you revealed more about yourself. I'm sorry to say that I think I was right about you in my first impression. And here I go again with 4 more simple Yes / No questions! This time without the benefit of numbers! Read the handwriting on the wall: This isn't looking good for you. Don't reply. Shut down the PC. Take a walk, read a book, do a little something to better yourself. Avoid the 'Submit Reply' button.

Of course, should you want to continue, a PM would probably be best. There is no need to continue this in public view and risk taking this thread off topic. If Trayvon wasn't such an uncommon name, I'd think there were two cases in which a guy named Trayvon was killed by a guy named Zimmerman. Feel free to PM me and tell me more about this bully Trayvon and how he "ambushed" someone.

I do entirely agree with you on one area of your comment(s): I too find this Fascinating. Truly... Distorted, perverted, at times completely silly, possibly even racist, but still fascinating. Of course, this certainly has the potential to be one of those 'train wrecks' in which you can't seem to pull your eyes away, and then, before it is even over you find yourself sorry you didn't just turn away in the first place when you had the chance...

 

[Iron Woode]

Good Lord, they have a shrine dedicated to the 2 murderous thugs.

What kind of fucked-up world is it that wants people to feel sympathy for thugs who try to murder someone?

The worst part will be listening to self-righteous leftards spewing ignorant drivel about the 'Culture of the Gun' in the US. All the while trying to justify the beat down the janitor received and demand he be punished for defending himself.

No surprise those who live there are called Cheese Heads.

 

[kage69]

Good Lord, they have a shrine dedicated to the 2 murderous thugs.

What kind of fucked-up world is it that wants people to feel sympathy for thugs who try to murder someone?

Pretty sure it's more of a memorial for two young people who checked out at such an early age. You can lament the loss without approving of the deeds that got them removed from the gene pool can't you?

If it turns out the janitor is the subject of a smear/harassment campaign over having the audacity to not want to be put in a wheelchair or casket, and some kind of real shrine is made as a rallying point for social and political protest where those two idiots are portrayed as victims, heroes, martyrs, whatever, then I agree with you completely. I have no sympathy for people who prey on their neighbors, particularly when it involves women, children and the elderly.

I will admit that I haven't been keeping a really close eye on this story, but I haven't noticed anyone actively defending or excusing the actions of those 3 perps. Is that not the case?

 

[OCGuy]

Prosecutors ordered him released, although they are "still investigating", which suggests no charges coming with the info currently at hand.

Attorney for janitor confirms he has a permit to carry, specifically because of his dangerous work conditions.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/...released-from-jail-b99225538z1-250355061.html