Good Twitter thread on the horror of "concentration camps" and the applicability of that term to migrants being detained at the Southern border

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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
This legal analysis disagrees with you. Worst case is IF Trump would have, he would increase his exposure to obstruction. But, alas, Trump didnt even have the legal authority to do so.

No it does not. I have read that, it says, broadly that if Trump could not fire Mueller, he would have to have the AG do it for him, and it assumed that Sessions had recused himself and Rod would not. That all changed when Barr became AG. It also concludes that it would almost certainly be felony obstruction of justice to do so.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
No it does not. I have read that, it says, broadly that if Trump could not fire Mueller, he would have to have the AG do it for him, and it assumed that Sessions had recused himself and Rod would not. That all changed when Barr became AG. It also concludes that it would almost certainly be felony obstruction of justice to do so.

It does NOT say "almost certainly". It says, and I quote, "increasing his exposure to charges of obstruction of justice"
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
It does NOT say "almost certainly". It says, and I quote, "increasing his exposure to charges of obstruction of justice"
Nope, wrong again! That is what the abstract says, the full opinion says:

First, as two of us have explained in a lengthy report on the matter, there is already substantial evidence that President Trump obstructed justice through a course of conduct that includes the firing of FBI Director James Comey. As detailed in that report, removing Special Counsel Mueller with the intent to impede the Russia investigation would amount to a doubling-down on the obstructive conduct in which Trump has already engaged.

EDIT: Might as well add the rest!
The case that a firing of Mueller would constitute obstruction of justice would be especially strong now that a grand jury has returned indictments against Paul Manafort, the president’s former campaign chairman, and Manafort’s former deputy, Rick Gates. The obstruction case against the president requires, among other things, showing that he has acted with corrupt intent and that his obstructive acts have some nexus to a qualifying proceeding. President Trump’s tweets43 about the indictment of Manafort show that he has knowledge of the criminal case, and there is a strong case to be made that interference with the office of the special counsel would amount to an interference with that ongoing proceeding.

Pretty much says exactly what I have been saying. Trump firing Mueller would be felony obstruction of justice.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,759
49,402
136
Which I acknowledged

Based on the Mueller report? No. I understand that not guilty does not mean innocent, but if the AG didnt have enough to prosecute, then Im not going to assume anything.

The position of the DOJ is that they could not prosecute regardless of the evidence. As for assuming things there's no assumption to be made, you can read the report yourself. Obstruction of justice has three elements, all of which I spelled out for you. Which element(s) do you think are not fulfilled?

The source you JUST cited as an authority on if Trump's actions were a felony came straight out and said there is 'ample and overwhelming evidence' that he committed a felony. Why was their legal opinion good enough ten minutes ago but now suddenly not?
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
I like how our resident Trump fluffers dig these camps! If there is any God it will be their new homes real soon. Again, there is no place in our great Country for treasonous America hating traitors so we are going to have to house them somewhere before the mass deportations commence...
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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Yes, the narrative that the Dems haven't and won't do anything on this issue is a bald lie. They've offered solutions and numerous compromises which all fell apart because conservative hardliners don't want it to happen at all.

If you want to blame people for the continual failure of this issue to be resolved look at Sessions, Cotton, the Tea Party, at least two GOP speakers, and now Trump himself.

Getting back off Mueller and back on topic, the reverse problem is that even if the usual suspect conservatives stayed out of the way of increasing legal immigration quotas, I highly doubt the progressive left has it in them to return to being strict about illegal immigration. They look at economic migrants as "the little guy" who needs to be defended and we'd end up with higher legal immigration while still doing nothing to stop illegal immigration. Unless we completely uncap the number of legal immigrants, there's still going to be a non-zero amount of those with the least skills or poor culture fits (e.g. my example about the jihadist wanting to implement a caliphate in the U.S.) who they would seem to be fine with allowing in as "asylum seekers." They're not humanitarians, they're just open borders advocates who would be fine accepting any and all comers.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Nope, wrong again! That is what the abstract says, the full opinion says:



EDIT: Might as well add the rest!


Pretty much says exactly what I have been saying. Trump firing Mueller would be felony obstruction of justice.

Well, he didnt fire him moot point.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,759
49,402
136
Getting back off Mueller and back on topic, the reverse problem is that even if the usual suspect conservatives stayed out of the way of increasing legal immigration quotas, I highly doubt the progressive left has it in them to return to being strict about illegal immigration. They look at economic migrants as "the little guy" who needs to be defended and we'd end up with higher legal immigration while still doing nothing to stop illegal immigration. Unless we completely uncap the number of legal immigrants, there's still going to be a non-zero amount of those with the least skills or poor culture fits (e.g. my example about the jihadist wanting to implement a caliphate in the U.S.) who they would seem to be fine with allowing in as "asylum seekers." They're not humanitarians, they're just open borders advocates who would be fine accepting any and all comers.

Well why don't we try doing what we all agree is the right thing on immigration and find out? If they turn out to be hypocrites you'll have your answer!
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
I like how our resident Trump fluffers dig these camps! If there is any God it will be their new homes real soon. Again, there is no place in our great Country for treasonous America hating traitors so we are going to have to house them somewhere before the mass deportations commence...

Wow I didnt realize the Obama administration were Trump fluffers!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,759
49,402
136
Well, he didnt fire him moot point.

Irrelevant. Obstruction of justice does not depend on whether or not the attempts to obstruct are successful. From 18 U.S. Code § 1505:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1505

Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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Well why don't we try doing what we all agree is the right thing on immigration and find out? If they turn out to be hypocrites you'll have your answer!

Sure, I'll just use my power of omnipotence and say "make it so" snapping my fingers like Thanos and his infinity gauntlet as you suggested in the last thread. I have one vote and will use it (unlike you as you've stated repeatedly) but that's where my influence ends.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,759
49,402
136
Sure, I'll just use my power of omnipotence and say "make it so" snapping my fingers like Thanos and his infinity gauntlet as you suggested in the last thread. I have one vote and will use it (unlike you as you've stated repeatedly) but that's where my influence ends.

I would have thought my point was clear that I hope we collectively agree about implementing that comprehensive immigration reform and that it's at best extremely difficult to know what 'the progressive left' would do after that, not that I expected you to utilize the Infinity Gauntlet to enact such a policy.

On the off chance that's in the cards though it would be sweet if you could add 4 or 5 zeroes onto my investment accounts while you're snapping. Let me know what's doable.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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I would have thought my point was clear that I hope we collectively agree about implementing that comprehensive immigration reform and that it's at best extremely difficult to know what 'the progressive left' would do after that, not that I expected you to utilize the Infinity Gauntlet to enact such a policy.

On the off chance that's in the cards though it would be sweet if you could add 4 or 5 zeroes onto my investment accounts while you're snapping. Let me know what's doable.

So there's currently laws about illegal immigration the progressive left would rather not enforce. Why would allowing X number of additional legal immigrants make them suddenly feel more strongly about changing their mind to renew a commitment to enforce laws against illegal immigration? "Pass the law then trust me I'll do the right thing" isn't a very compelling argument.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
So there's currently laws about illegal immigration the progressive left would rather not enforce. Why would allowing X number of additional legal immigrants make them suddenly feel more strongly about changing their mind to renew a commitment to enforce laws against illegal immigration? "Pass the law then trust me I'll do the right thing" isn't a very compelling argument.

The final refuge of the conservative. Somewhere, some when there was a law that was not enforced on someone, therefore all laws are useless! Why bother? Certainly seems to be the overriding belief of the GOP Senate.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,759
49,402
136
So there's currently laws about illegal immigration the progressive left would rather not enforce. Why would allowing X number of additional legal immigrants make them suddenly feel more strongly about changing their mind to renew a commitment to enforce laws against illegal immigration? "Pass the law then trust me I'll do the right thing" isn't a very compelling argument.

By that logic what's the point in passing any laws?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,759
49,402
136
Good question if progressives are going to selectively enforce them.

All laws are selectively enforced and have been throughout all of human history.

We don't deploy police at every corner to catch all jaywalkers and this is a purposeful choice. Does that mean we should disband the criminal justice system because laws are pointless?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
All laws are selectively enforced and have been throughout all of human history.

We don't deploy police at every corner to catch all jaywalkers and this is a purposeful choice. Does that mean we should disband the criminal justice system because laws are pointless?

Bingo. And thus, the never ending cycle of my side is right and your side is wrong, even though laws are followed or selectively enforced.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,840
9,083
136
Why would allowing X number of additional legal immigrants make them suddenly feel more strongly about changing their mind to renew a commitment to enforce laws against illegal immigration?
Because if increasing X reduces illegal immigration to a smaller number Y, enforcement becomes easier/cheaper to accomplish with the resources we already have.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
All laws are selectively enforced and have been throughout all of human history.

We don't deploy police at every corner to catch all jaywalkers and this is a purposeful choice. Does that mean we should disband the criminal justice system because laws are pointless?

Then it's just as valid if we selectively enforce any laws that exist about how we treat refugees. "Concentration camps" it is!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,759
49,402
136
Maybe you like this one better then.

I'm not sure why you think linking to more rants by stupid people who don't understand history would be better.

The conservative argument seems to basically be that despite the camps on the southern border easily meeting the dictionary definition of concentration camps that they can't be called that because they aren't as bad as the Nazi concentration camps. If that's the standard then the Japanese internment camps in World War 2 can't be called concentration camps either, so you're basically arguing that the person who made them (FDR) and the current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court don't know what concentration camps are.

I do find it pretty funny that the political movement who constantly shrieks about political correctness is mad that people are using the dictionary definition here. Should we call them 'camps of differing density'? lol.

Happy Holidays when there are tons of people who celebrate things other than Christmas?
Conservatives: STOP THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR! ReeeeEEEEEEE

Call something a concentration camp when it meets the dictionary definition of concentration camp?
Conservatives: DON'T CALL THEM THAT IT'S NOT FAIR. ReeeeEEEEEEE

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concentration camp
 
Reactions: Meghan54

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I'm not sure why you think linking to more rants by stupid people who don't understand history would be better.

The conservative argument seems to basically be that despite the camps on the southern border easily meeting the dictionary definition of concentration camps that they can't be called that because they aren't as bad as the Nazi concentration camps. If that's the standard then the Japanese internment camps in World War 2 can't be called concentration camps either, so you're basically arguing that the person who made them (FDR) and the current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court don't know what concentration camps are.

I do find it pretty funny that the political movement who constantly shrieks about political correctness is mad that people are using the dictionary definition here. Should we call them 'camps of increased density'? lol.

Happy Holidays when there are tons of people who celebrate things other than Christmas?
Conservatives: STOP THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR! ReeeeEEEEEEE

Call something a concentration camp when it meets the dictionary definition of concentration camp?
Conservatives: DON'T CALL THEM THAT IT'S NOT FAIR. ReeeeEEEEEEE

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concentration camp

"All laws are selectively enforced," (@fskimospy )

The organ harvesting and medical experiments begin in the southern border "concentration camps" begin in 5 minutes. Selective law enforcement you know.
 
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