GOP continues to deny the biggest and rising terrorist threat in the United States today, white nationalism

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TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
I'll attempt a little more accuracy. Not all righties are racist but if you find a racist IMO 80-90% chance they are Trump supporter or Republican
As far as discrimination's go I would agree that racism it's 80% right and 20% left. As far as ageism I'd say swap those numbers, as far as sexual orientation that's a def monopoly of the right being the discriminators. I think both have light years to go on mental health as one side (right) doesn't buy it at all unless they can see it (ironic given they believe in a god they don't see) and I think the other only sees the ones that are a hot button for the time and do everything they can to ignore the ones that are not.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,815
49,508
136
I'll attempt a little more accuracy. Not all righties are racist but if you find a racist IMO 80-90% chance they are Trump supporter or Republican

Yes, this is the right way to look at it. All Republicans are certainly not white supremacists. If you find a white supremacist though, I bet you they are Republican.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,289
28,144
136
This bitch shows up at the hearing to turn it into a dog a pony show days after 3 black churches in Louisiana were set on fire
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,058
38,564
136
The self-righteous indignation, all the spewing of talking points, I can see why people liken her to a chocolate Tomi Lahren. Neither bring anything of value to the table of debate, they're just token representatives of demos the echochamber is insecure about.

I'm all for them making asses out of themselves though.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Of course. If one side says their side they are valiant warriors helping the oppressed and downtrodden.

If the other side says thei---- SHUT UP RACIST WHITEY! YOU'RE RACIST SEXIST KKK MEMBER!


So what do you think the end result will be? Especially when you have stupid lefties that perceive all white people are privileged and can ask daddy for money at any point. Meanwhile, white people are still the largest pool of the poor. But hey - at least they have their white privilege amirite?

Ah.. you poor poor victim.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Meanwhile, a white supremacist was arrested yesterday in Louisiana for burning down 3 historically black churches.

But it's whites in America that are the real victims of racism today.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
It's never about giving up hope. It's about facing reality.

Precisely what I am advocating for. We should turn our attention away from trying to convince others that their views are wrong and toward stopping the harmful actions that they take. We should not pretend we are doing discourse when discourse has proven impossible. We don't change America by trying to get Americans to agree that they are on the wrong path if they are not willing to examine the path they are on themselves. We change America through leading. We lead by opposing Trump's agenda, by investigating his crimes, and through impeachment regardless of whether we anticipate support from Republicans. We get their support by demonstrating to them why it is important to support us, not why they are bad for failing to do so. We show Americans that we are willing to take whatever political risk is involved to stand up for what is right.

The hope that I carry is not that continued attempt at dialog will somehow be productive at this time. The hope that I carry is that, by acting on our principles without intentionally alienating or blaming those we disagree with, the results of such action will be facilitation of capacity for discourse.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
True, but that seems to minimise the fact he's not a lot better off as he is. It is still true that race isn't everything. It has a major effect in itself, but it also acts through class - in that it is hugely correlated with class. Some of what gets counted as racial disadvantage is actually class based, it's just that black people make up a greatly disproportionate share of the poorest economic classes. Seems in fact that race ends up acting as a form of class in the US. One with visible markers.
Congrats, you have minimized the significance of being alive (and struggling) vs being dead.

Again, class is the war I think we need to be fighting back in en masse, but nothing is gained by ignoring the additional bullshit that race layers onto things.

This thread (and its author) might help:
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Meanwhile, a white supremacist was arrested yesterday in Louisiana for burning down 3 historically black churches.

But it's whites in America that are the real victims of racism today.
And the suspect is the son of a cop.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Yes, this is the right way to look at it. All Republicans are certainly not white supremacists. If you find a white supremacist though, I bet you they are Republican.
But they will probably claim they are libertarian!
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,284
8,205
136
Congrats, you have minimized the significance of being alive (and struggling) vs being dead.

Again, class is the war I think we need to be fighting back in en masse, but nothing is gained by ignoring the additional bullshit that race layers onto things.

This thread (and its author) might help:

I think using the word 'struggling' to describe that level of poverty or living conditions is itself a form of minimization. So congrats right back at you!

But I absolutely don't think the independent effects of race should be ignored. And nor should the way that race correlates with class. Even middle-class black people tend to be less securely middle-class, having less inherited wealth and often being relatively new entrants in the middle-class professions.

But I also just can't help but feel uneasy when affluent white people minimise the effect of economic factors, trying to reduce it all to race alone, and thus, I guess, reducing their own level of privilege to one more-easily-managed dimension.

(I read that linked article when it first appeared, by the way - I don't really see the relevance to the point)
 
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Mar 11, 2004
23,181
5,644
146
I think using the word 'struggling' to describe that level of poverty or living conditions is itself a form of minimization. So congrats right back at you!

But I absolutely don't think the independent effects of race should be ignored. And nor should the way that race correlates with class. Even middle-class black people tend to be less securely middle-class, having less inherited wealth and often being relatively new entrants in the middle-class professions.

But I also just can't help but feel uneasy when affluent white people minimise the effect of economic factors, trying to reduce it all to race alone, and thus, I guess, reducing their own level of privilege to one more-easily-managed dimension.

(I read that linked article when it first appeared, by the way - I don't really see the relevance to the point)

Sorry but if you can't see how going "I get racism is bad, but we should focus on economics first" is actually exactly the type of thing that needs to change I don't know what to say. I know you think you're going "those economic factors affect everyone" (maybe you can see how that's going "all lives matter"?) and you might even go "they affect those minorities more than white people so it will be helping them more" but I hope you can also see that the help will definitely help white people more (because they've been inherently privileged economically) unless we deliberately work to make that not true (which is why people are saying we need to deliberately talk about race; oh and gender too!). And that its only now that white people are starting to have the same screws turned on them that minorities have that people want to do something about it, and going "we need to focus on the economics" just shows that its blatantly loaded. Its essentially saying "well now that its hitting white people too, it really is a problem". Which is inherently dismissive about how its been a constant problem for non-whites.

And we've seen over and over how once white people get back to being comfortable they stop caring about helping non-whites and then start going "I don't know what you're talking about, things are fine, stop trying to make it about race!" And, on top of that, there is some blatant behavior that is working to push things back to where they were before the Civil Rights Movement. And white people are trying to dismiss that behavior as though they're struggling so hard (but how dare we point out that non-whites are struggling just as hard in the same ways, but also are being discriminated against on top of it!?!) that they're just doing what they can to get by and its not their fault if non-whites are hurt by it. That's exactly how they've acted as they've pushed for charter schools and other ways of segregating schools again (which of course they claim is not their reason for doing it, which that's also kinda the point, it doesn't have to be intentionally racist for it to end up being racist; but you know it also is intentionally racist because when shown how its leading to racist outcomes, they pretty much go "so what, its not my fault" or some other manner of trying to absolve themselves of having a role in it because "I'm not racist!!!").

And no clue where you're getting that white people are doing that at all either. They're saying that the economic stuff is bad, but since its hurt non-whites more, we maybe should look at finding a remedy for that instead of trying to marginalize the racism that fueled that behavior (before those assholes decided that "well if we can't be racist, let's fuck everyone over" after the Civil Rights Movment expliclity said "stop being racist you fucking assholes"), which will just kick the can down the road again so white people can go back to their blissful ignorance.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,284
8,205
136
Sorry but if you can't see how going "I get racism is bad, but we should focus on economics first" is actually exactly the type of thing that needs to change I don't know what to say. I know you think you're going "those economic factors affect everyone" (maybe you can see how that's going "all lives matter"?) and you might even go "they affect those minorities more than white people so it will be helping them more" but I hope you can also see that the help will definitely help white people more (because they've been inherently privileged economically) unless we deliberately work to make that not true (which is why people are saying we need to deliberately talk about race; oh and gender too!). And that its only now that white people are starting to have the same screws turned on them that minorities have that people want to do something about it, and going "we need to focus on the economics" just shows that its blatantly loaded. Its essentially saying "well now that its hitting white people too, it really is a problem". Which is inherently dismissive about how its been a constant problem for non-whites.

And we've seen over and over how once white people get back to being comfortable they stop caring about helping non-whites and then start going "I don't know what you're talking about, things are fine, stop trying to make it about race!" And, on top of that, there is some blatant behavior that is working to push things back to where they were before the Civil Rights Movement. And white people are trying to dismiss that behavior as though they're struggling so hard (but how dare we point out that non-whites are struggling just as hard in the same ways, but also are being discriminated against on top of it!?!) that they're just doing what they can to get by and its not their fault if non-whites are hurt by it. That's exactly how they've acted as they've pushed for charter schools and other ways of segregating schools again (which of course they claim is not their reason for doing it, which that's also kinda the point, it doesn't have to be intentionally racist for it to end up being racist; but you know it also is intentionally racist because when shown how its leading to racist outcomes, they pretty much go "so what, its not my fault" or some other manner of trying to absolve themselves of having a role in it because "I'm not racist!!!").

And no clue where you're getting that white people are doing that at all either. They're saying that the economic stuff is bad, but since its hurt non-whites more, we maybe should look at finding a remedy for that instead of trying to marginalize the racism that fueled that behavior (before those assholes decided that "well if we can't be racist, let's fuck everyone over" after the Civil Rights Movment expliclity said "stop being racist you fucking assholes"), which will just kick the can down the road again so white people can go back to their blissful ignorance.


I get that race is a huge issue in the US (and it's increasingly a major issue here, I'm old and things are changing rapidly, I get that). But some middle-class liberals in the US seem to me sometimes to prefer to ignore the structural question of class, because they benefit from it. The logic of that stance is that in contexts where that are racially homogeneous, there can be no exploitation or inequality. The message that sometimes comes across is that economic exploitation is fine, as long as the exploiter and exploited classes are evenly divided by race. That seems a convenient position for middle-class and upper class liberals to hold. Race isn't the only issue, indeed racial inequality to a significant degree depends on a system of economic inequality. The two are not really separable.

Your comments are very US specific. When I was growing up, leftist politics was about economics and class domestically, and anti-imperialism abroad. Race as a domestic issue, while something one had a view on, wasn't that major a topic because the country was overwhelmingly white. Even my dad - who was himself an 'immigrant' and 'person of colour' to use an anachronistic term that wasn't in use then, and would often get racially abused - wasn't that focussed on that. I think in his heart he imagined we'd achieve world socialism and then he'd go 'home' to the formerly-colonialised country he came from. Neither happened in his lifetime, sadly.

I realise that the context is very different and that things like that image meme are used in extremely cyncial ways - as I said, I am sure the intention is to discount racial inequality rather than do something about class. But sometimes I just find it hard to get my head around a US context where economic issues seems to get sidelined in favour of a kind of strictly liberal focus on equal representation, of equality in exploitation. (My dad always found the US baffling in its resistance to socialism, and predicted it would one day turn Nazi - still not clear to me that he was wrong.)

American liberals don't seem all that consistent about opposing imperialism either, hence the Clintons and the frequency with which they bombed dark-skinned foreigners or supported regimes that did so. Actually liberals have a long tradition of being pro-Empire, going back to JS Mill. It was a liberal who took the US into both WW1 and Vietnam, after all.

I actually agree with you entirely about the charter schools thing, that's an argument I've had with US Clinton fans, Hillary being a big proponent of Charter schools. It's similar to the policies introduced by Blarites and taken up by the Tories here. Though to be fair to Blair and Hillary, in both cases the liberal version was more limited in scope and it's the right who then took it and expanded it in a really destructive manner, as a means to reintroduce 'selection' (which here traditionally meant segregation by class, more than by race) and indeed to privatise the school system.

Oh, and while I don't think it's at all surprising that the UK or European left didn't traditionally talk about domestic racial topics (because the overwhelming majority of the population were white) I can't even begin to defend the neglect of gender and the experience of women. That was just a failing of the left, really. Still is, I guess.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,598
29,303
136
Something that may be missing from expressing my point of view is that, even though we may not have resolved either through discourse or through violence a common understanding of how we agree to see the world, it does not prevent us from being able to address harmful behaviors. I believe quite strongly that Trump's actions are dangerous and basic human rights violations and that we should act to stop them. I believe very strongly that we should intervene against white supremacy groups who act upon their hatred. I do not believe, however, that we should label all Trump supporters as racists with no value as people altogether and seek to restrict them from holding or non-violently expressing their points of view even when I disagree with them quite vehemently. In fact, I think such labeling only has hope of helping to stop behavior if it is accompanied by violent resolution of the division that is made. Otherwise, what is the point in promoting the divisiveness if you can't successfully force someone to capitulate to your point of view?
Every single Trump supporter would support locking Hillary Clinton up for the rest of her life even though there isn't a single shred of evidence she has ever done anything worthy of prosecution. Each and every single one of them either willingly believes false evidence even though it is easily disproven and/or doesn't care there is no evidence because "she is obviously crooked" and is just good at covering her tracks. Each and every single one of them would cheer her incarceration, openly mock her and her family when they complained about the suffering she and they are enduring because of it, and lobby for the death penalty by the hands of their beloved small government. These people are lost. Their brains are clay in the hands of their masters.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
White nationalism is not a rising threat, they are just reporting on it differently than they did in the past. Quick test, show me how many neighborhoods have been burned down by white nationalists, I can show you neighborhoods burned down in the last few years from minority protesters.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
But some middle-class liberals in the US seem to me sometimes to prefer to ignore the structural question of class, because they benefit from it.

Perhaps some, there are always some, but most are more than willing to talk about and work on that problem as well. We can do more than one thing at a time. We can have more than one conversation at a time. Talking about race does not mean we can't also talk about class, it is just that they are separate issues.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
White nationalism is not a rising threat, they are just reporting on it differently than they did in the past. Quick test, show me how many neighborhoods have been burned down by white nationalists, I can show you neighborhoods burned down in the last few years from minority protesters.

The real question is how many have been burned down by second hand smoke?
 
Reactions: Victorian Gray

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,815
49,508
136
I get that race is a huge issue in the US (and it's increasingly a major issue here, I'm old and things are changing rapidly, I get that). But some middle-class liberals in the US seem to me sometimes to prefer to ignore the structural question of class, because they benefit from it. The logic of that stance is that in contexts where that are racially homogeneous, there can be no exploitation or inequality. The message that sometimes comes across is that economic exploitation is fine, as long as the exploiter and exploited classes are evenly divided by race. That seems a convenient position for middle-class and upper class liberals to hold. Race isn't the only issue, indeed racial inequality to a significant degree depends on a system of economic inequality. The two are not really separable.

Your comments are very US specific. When I was growing up, leftist politics was about economics and class domestically, and anti-imperialism abroad. Race as a domestic issue, while something one had a view on, wasn't that major a topic because the country was overwhelmingly white. Even my dad - who was himself an 'immigrant' and 'person of colour' to use an anachronistic term that wasn't in use then, and would often get racially abused - wasn't that focussed on that. I think in his heart he imagined we'd achieve world socialism and then he'd go 'home' to the formerly-colonialised country he came from. Neither happened in his lifetime, sadly.

I realise that the context is very different and that things like that image meme are used in extremely cyncial ways - as I said, I am sure the intention is to discount racial inequality rather than do something about class. But sometimes I just find it hard to get my head around a US context where economic issues seems to get sidelined in favour of a kind of strictly liberal focus on equal representation, of equality in exploitation. (My dad always found the US baffling in its resistance to socialism, and predicted it would one day turn Nazi - still not clear to me that he was wrong.)

American liberals don't seem all that consistent about opposing imperialism either, hence the Clintons and the frequency with which they bombed dark-skinned foreigners or supported regimes that did so. Actually liberals have a long tradition of being pro-Empire, going back to JS Mill. It was a liberal who took the US into both WW1 and Vietnam, after all.

I actually agree with you entirely about the charter schools thing, that's an argument I've had with US Clinton fans, Hillary being a big proponent of Charter schools. It's similar to the policies introduced by Blarites and taken up by the Tories here. Though to be fair to Blair and Hillary, in both cases the liberal version was more limited in scope and it's the right who then took it and expanded it in a really destructive manner, as a means to reintroduce 'selection' (which here traditionally meant segregation by class, more than by race) and indeed to privatise the school system.

Oh, and while I don't think it's at all surprising that the UK or European left didn't traditionally talk about domestic racial topics (because the overwhelming majority of the population were white) I can't even begin to defend the neglect of gender and the experience of women. That was just a failing of the left, really. Still is, I guess.

I think race and economic class issues are more closely intertwined than most people think. One of the biggest impediments to enacting policies that redistribute income and lessen inequality is the belief that the undeserving (read: brown) people will take advantage of them.

One of the primary reasons I’ve read about as to how Scandinavian countries have been able to enact such strong and successful welfare states is that they are pretty ethnically homogenous, for example.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,289
28,144
136
White nationalism is not a rising threat, they are just reporting on it differently than they did in the past. Quick test, show me how many neighborhoods have been burned down by white nationalists, I can show you neighborhoods burned down in the last few years from minority protesters.
The FBI and other agencies has those stats. There are numerous articles citing a 17% rise in hate crimes since Trump took office and who is responsible.

Try stating some actual facts instead of your usual bullshit. BTW - just to directly counter your tripe I guess you were unaware of the recent 3 church burnings in Louisiana by people associated with white nationalists.

Maybe you can get out of the way of your own ignorance and stop blaming the media.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
The FBI and other agencies has those stats. There are numerous articles citing a 17% rise in hate crimes since Trump took office and who is responsible.

Try stating some actual facts instead of your usual bullshit. BTW - just to directly counter your tripe I guess you were unaware of the recent 3 church burnings in Louisiana by people associated with white nationalists.

Maybe you can get out of the way of your own ignorance and stop blaming the media.


First, I didn't say there is zero white nationalist crime, so pointing out that some crimes did happen in no way invalidates what I said. What I said is that it is not increasing. the way it is measured has changed. I just started a thread where Candace Owens points out exactly this.

Second, there are a huge number of false flag attacks today but you guys are so ready to gobble it up that you honestly thought the Jussie Smollett situation likely happened despite the odds.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
ah... boring and predictable ALT activated... Weakest wonder twin powers ever...


Not alt right despite your attempts... But, isn't Trump great? Just think, he took on the Democrats, the Republicans, the media, and Hollywood and whipped them all.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136


both sides!
I am not an AOC fan, but the appalling, inflammatory irresponsibility of Republican rhetoric and propaganda is possibly the number one reason why I will not vote Republican.

The RWNJ trolls here will tell you that Democrats are trying to criminalize speech they don't agree with, while Republicans are actually attacking as criminal any speech that doesn't agree with them.
 
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