GOP fails to implement its own budget

[ivwshane]

I didn't say it was smart fiscal policy, I said it's the structure that, as far as I know, is being used. I'd also like to point out that it is a fairly common structure for a government agency, and that the DOD does a better job of monitoring it than most. We aren't seeing clips of DOD personnel dressed up for Star Trek skits for instance. Is their waste in the DOD? Absolutely. Should it be investigated and corrected? Absolutely. Should we axe the entire Defense Department? Only if you want to pledge allegiance to a different flag. I think cuts should be made in many areas of the government.

Now, since you've already written me off, I may as well bring up that some sources claim that as much as 20% of the Federal Healthcare budget is spent on fraudulent claims due to lack of proper over-site. Not waste, not abuse, just plain fraud by criminals. I'll admit I'm a bit more tolerant towards waste than I am towards fraud.

No you didn't say it wasnt smart fiscal policy, you said they were thrifty and that's a direct contradiction when you admit they spend money just so they won't have their budget cut the following year.

My point was that not only are republucans and the right hypocrites when it comes to spending or cutting waste but that there is plenty of waste that can be cut and should be cut that does not, in any shape or form, hurt our defensive capabilities.
Just because the system is set up like that doesn't mean that's how it should be and I certainly don't want a politician complaining about government waste and then does nothing to seriously address the issue and instead does the dumbest shit in US fiscal policy history (aka not raising the debt limit).

 

[gloom111]

No you didn't say it wasnt smart fiscal policy, you said they were thrifty and that's a direct contradiction when you admit they spend money just so they won't have their budget cut the following year.

My point was that not only are republucans and the right hypocrites when it comes to spending or cutting waste but that there is plenty of waste that can be cut and should be cut that does not, in any shape or form, hurt our defensive capabilities.
Just because the system is set up like that doesn't mean that's how it should be and I certainly don't want a politician complaining about government waste and then does nothing to seriously address the issue and instead does the dumbest shit in US fiscal policy history (aka not raising the debt limit).

Raise the debt limit how far? When do you stop? It's easy to criticize how almost every government agency in the country is budgeted when you aren't obligated to propose an alternative method that will limit waste more than the current system does, and by the way, I'm not working for the government, the defense industry, or a military/government contractor. I am a veteran though, so I guess you can hold that against me.

 

[ivwshane]

Raise the debt limit how far? When do you stop? It's easy to criticize how almost every government agency in the country is budgeted when you aren't obligated to propose an alternative method that will limit waste more than the current system does, and by the way, I'm not working for the government, the defense industry, or a military/government contractor. I am a veteran though, so I guess you can hold that against me.

Please educate yourself on what raising the debt ceiling is all about (hint: it's not about spending more)

 

[BlueWolf47]

Please educate yourself on what raising the debt ceiling is all about (hint: it's not about spending more)

They dont understand that raising the debt limit is an agreement to continue paying on debt obligations or money that has already been spent.

 

[gloom111]

They dont understand that raising the debt limit is an agreement to continue paying on debt obligations or money that has already been spent.

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.” — Then-Sen. Barack Obama, floor speech in the Senate, March 16, 2006

I get it, but you really can't hold it against me if I act stupid now and then, since as you can see, a constitutional lawyer and US Senator felt the same way back in 2006.

 

[BlueWolf47]

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt range limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.” — Then-Sen. Barack Obama, floor speech in the Senate, March 16, 2006

I get it, but you really can't hold it against me if I act stupid now and then, since as you can see, a constitutional lawyer and US Senator felt the same way back in 2006.

I didn't know you were an Obama supporter so I apologize. Obama chose party politics over voting to raise the debt limit.

 

[ivwshane]

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.” — Then-Sen. Barack Obama, floor speech in the Senate, March 16, 2006

I get it, but you really can't hold it against me if I act stupid now and then, since as you can see, a constitutional lawyer and US Senator felt the same way back in 2006.

Perhaps, then, you should start thinking for yourself. If you did you would realize that what Obama did was irrelevant (even more so when you don't add context).

 

[fskimospy]

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.” — Then-Sen. Barack Obama, floor speech in the Senate, March 16, 2006

I get it, but you really can't hold it against me if I act stupid now and then, since as you can see, a constitutional lawyer and US Senator felt the same way back in 2006.

Someone else saying something stupid in the past does not excuse you holding the same opinion now.

Also, I have to say that I'm pretty shocked to see a fellow veteran try and claim there isn't considerable waste happening in the DoD.

 

[gloom111]

LOL, if you can't defend your ignorance, find someone more qualified that made a statement equally as ignorant.

As for waste in the DoD, I said it is easy to criticize it when you aren't required to come up with a better alternative. I didn't ever say their wasn't waste in the DoD, especially those departments that fall outside the UCMJ. In those departments, the fraud, waste, and abuse is quite real. For those departments that fall within the UCMJ fraud is less of a factor because the UCMJ is a far less forgiving system of justice than civil law. As a former Security Forces Officer, I can attest to the fact that US Military Personnel are held accountable for their actions to a greater degree then they are in civil court.

The reality is that Congress is responsible for creating many of those outside agencies that fall within the purview of the DoD but aren't answerable to the UCMJ. Congress, not just the house, and not just the senate, both of them stick their fingers into the DoD budget and insist on added pork to make their contributors and lobbyists happy. Congress is happy to pass laws that control the behavior of the populous, but they neglect to self regulate, and a great deal of the fraud, waste, and abuse we see is a direct result of that. If you took the DoD budget and handed it over to any other Governmental agency, I can almost guarantee that the the FWaA would explode. Now, if you left the military prior to the cut backs that occurred over the past couple of decades, then things would have been different. The FWaA that occurs inside the workings of the military has, or at least had, been reduced quite a bit. Throw in a decade long war and I'm sure that things would have changed for the worse in some areas, but most of that can once again be dropped at the feet of out Congressional Representatives.

 

[fskimospy]

Hmm, I saw a guy throw a $10,000 part off the side of the ship once and not even get a slap on the wrist.

 

[gloom111]

I would have to agree that throwing a $10,000 part over the side of a ship is a waste, any idea why it was done?



At the same time, not excusing such waste as you witnessed with your own eyes, I think number 4 below might be a slightly bigger problem with our naval services.



Federal Spending by the Numbers 2012:

1. A reality TV show in India. The Department of Agriculture’s Market Access Program spends $200 million a year to help U.S. agricultural trade associations and cooperatives advertise their products in foreign markets. In 2011, it funded a reality TV show in India that advertised U.S. cotton.
2. Studying pig poop. The Environmental Protection Agency awarded a $141,450 grant under the Clean Air Act to fund a Chinese study on swine manure and a $1.2 million grant to the United Nations for clean fuel promotion.
3. Amtrak snacks. Federally subsidized Amtrak lost $84.5 million on its food and beverage services in 2011 and $833.8 million over the past 10 years. It has never broken even on these services.
4. Using military exercises to boost biofuels. The U.S. Navy bought 450,000 gallons of biofuels for $12 million—or almost $27 per gallon—to conduct exercises to showcase the fuel and bring it closer toward commercialization. It is the largest biofuel purchase ever made by the government.
5. Conferences for government employees. In 2008 and 2009 alone, the Department of Justice spent $121 million to host or participate in 1,832 conferences.

Waste Book 2012:

1. “RoboSquirrel.” $325,000 was spent on a robotic squirrel named “RoboSquirrel.” This National Science Foundation grant was used to create a realistic-looking robotic squirrel for the purpose of studying how a rattlesnake would react to it.
2. Cupcakes. In Washington, D.C., and elsewhere across the country, cupcake shops are trending. The 10 cupcake shop owners who received $2 million in Small Business Administration loan guarantees, however, can only boast so much of their entrepreneurial ingenuity, since taxpayers are backing them up.
3. Food stamps for alcohol and junk food. Though they were intended to ensure hungry children received healthy meals, taxpayer-funded food stamps were instead spent on fast food at Taco Bell and Burger King; on non-nutritious foods such as candy, ice cream, and soft drinks; and on some 2,000 deceased persons in New York and Massachusetts. Food stamp recipients spent $2 billion on sugary drinks alone. Improper SNAP payments accounted for $2.5 billion in waste, including to one exotic dancer who was making $85,000 per year.
4. Beer brewing in New Hampshire. Despite Smuttynose brewery’s financial success and popularity, it is still getting a $750,970 Community Development Block Grant to build a new brewery and restaurant facilities.
5. A covered bridge to nowhere. What list of government waste would be complete without a notorious “bridge to nowhere”? In this case, it’s $520,000 to fix the Stevenson Road Covered Bridge in Green County, Ohio, which was last used in 2003.

 

[Fern]

They dont understand that raising the debt limit is an agreement to continue paying on debt obligations or money that has already been spent.

Not really.

Raising the debt limit allows us to borrow more.

We don't need the money to pay off debt. That can just be rolled over (issue a new bond to pay off the old one being retired). We did that last time.

Nor does it have any effect on money that has already been spent. New debt, however, does allow us to obtain money to pay for future obligations we have already promised to pay, whether that be govt employee salaries or whatever.

Refusing a debt ceiling increase would force us to spend only what we take in as revenues, which is a considerable amount.

Fern

 

[berzerker60]

I would have to agree that throwing a $10,000 part over the side of a ship is a waste, any idea why it was done?



At the same time, not excusing such waste as you witnessed with your own eyes, I think number 4 below might be a slightly bigger problem with our naval services.



Federal Spending by the Numbers 2012:

1. A reality TV show in India. The Department of Agriculture’s Market Access Program spends $200 million a year to help U.S. agricultural trade associations and cooperatives advertise their products in foreign markets. In 2011, it funded a reality TV show in India that advertised U.S. cotton.
2. Studying pig poop. The Environmental Protection Agency awarded a $141,450 grant under the Clean Air Act to fund a Chinese study on swine manure and a $1.2 million grant to the United Nations for clean fuel promotion.
3. Amtrak snacks. Federally subsidized Amtrak lost $84.5 million on its food and beverage services in 2011 and $833.8 million over the past 10 years. It has never broken even on these services.
4. Using military exercises to boost biofuels. The U.S. Navy bought 450,000 gallons of biofuels for $12 million—or almost $27 per gallon—to conduct exercises to showcase the fuel and bring it closer toward commercialization. It is the largest biofuel purchase ever made by the government.
5. Conferences for government employees. In 2008 and 2009 alone, the Department of Justice spent $121 million to host or participate in 1,832 conferences.

Waste Book 2012:

1. “RoboSquirrel.” $325,000 was spent on a robotic squirrel named “RoboSquirrel.” This National Science Foundation grant was used to create a realistic-looking robotic squirrel for the purpose of studying how a rattlesnake would react to it.
2. Cupcakes. In Washington, D.C., and elsewhere across the country, cupcake shops are trending. The 10 cupcake shop owners who received $2 million in Small Business Administration loan guarantees, however, can only boast so much of their entrepreneurial ingenuity, since taxpayers are backing them up.
3. Food stamps for alcohol and junk food. Though they were intended to ensure hungry children received healthy meals, taxpayer-funded food stamps were instead spent on fast food at Taco Bell and Burger King; on non-nutritious foods such as candy, ice cream, and soft drinks; and on some 2,000 deceased persons in New York and Massachusetts. Food stamp recipients spent $2 billion on sugary drinks alone. Improper SNAP payments accounted for $2.5 billion in waste, including to one exotic dancer who was making $85,000 per year.
4. Beer brewing in New Hampshire. Despite Smuttynose brewery’s financial success and popularity, it is still getting a $750,970 Community Development Block Grant to build a new brewery and restaurant facilities.
5. A covered bridge to nowhere. What list of government waste would be complete without a notorious “bridge to nowhere”? In this case, it’s $520,000 to fix the Stevenson Road Covered Bridge in Green County, Ohio, which was last used in 2003.

1. Selling goods abroad is a good thing. Advertising costs money but can make money. See: every advertising campaign ever used by private industry
2. Swine manure is a huge, huge issue, which you'd know if you spent any time in the agriculture world. They produce tons of it, it's hard to find somewhere to dump it without completely screwing up the environment, and it's expensive to ship/process it into usable fertilizer or other goods. Just because it has a funny word like 'poop' in it doesn't make it less of a huge issue.
3. It would be swell if Amtrack was revenue neutral, but mass transit keeps people off roads and speeds the shipment of goods. It's a public service even if it costs money. Roads cost money too.
4. Now why oh why could America want to work on advancing tech that would let us reduce our dependence on foreign oil?
5. There's potential for waste here, but conferences are important. If I really have to explain why and how they're important, I can.

1. http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=126338 Learning about rattesnakes is valuable, educating biologists and ecologists is valuable.
2. Small businesses create jobs
3. Your title says "and alcohol" but then doesn't mention alcohol. I call BS, way to bite on the welfare queen urban legend.
4. Small businesses create jobs, and in this case tasty beer
5. Possibly pork, but could you perhaps think of a reason why no one would be driving on a bridge lately that's in need of a half million dollars worth of repairs?

 

[Juddog]

I would have to agree that throwing a $10,000 part over the side of a ship is a waste, any idea why it was done?



At the same time, not excusing such waste as you witnessed with your own eyes, I think number 4 below might be a slightly bigger problem with our naval services.



Federal Spending by the Numbers 2012:

1. A reality TV show in India. The Department of Agriculture’s Market Access Program spends $200 million a year to help U.S. agricultural trade associations and cooperatives advertise their products in foreign markets. In 2011, it funded a reality TV show in India that advertised U.S. cotton.
2. Studying pig poop. The Environmental Protection Agency awarded a $141,450 grant under the Clean Air Act to fund a Chinese study on swine manure and a $1.2 million grant to the United Nations for clean fuel promotion.
3. Amtrak snacks. Federally subsidized Amtrak lost $84.5 million on its food and beverage services in 2011 and $833.8 million over the past 10 years. It has never broken even on these services.
4. Using military exercises to boost biofuels. The U.S. Navy bought 450,000 gallons of biofuels for $12 million—or almost $27 per gallon—to conduct exercises to showcase the fuel and bring it closer toward commercialization. It is the largest biofuel purchase ever made by the government.
5. Conferences for government employees. In 2008 and 2009 alone, the Department of Justice spent $121 million to host or participate in 1,832 conferences.

Waste Book 2012:

1. “RoboSquirrel.” $325,000 was spent on a robotic squirrel named “RoboSquirrel.” This National Science Foundation grant was used to create a realistic-looking robotic squirrel for the purpose of studying how a rattlesnake would react to it.
2. Cupcakes. In Washington, D.C., and elsewhere across the country, cupcake shops are trending. The 10 cupcake shop owners who received $2 million in Small Business Administration loan guarantees, however, can only boast so much of their entrepreneurial ingenuity, since taxpayers are backing them up.
3. Food stamps for alcohol and junk food. Though they were intended to ensure hungry children received healthy meals, taxpayer-funded food stamps were instead spent on fast food at Taco Bell and Burger King; on non-nutritious foods such as candy, ice cream, and soft drinks; and on some 2,000 deceased persons in New York and Massachusetts. Food stamp recipients spent $2 billion on sugary drinks alone. Improper SNAP payments accounted for $2.5 billion in waste, including to one exotic dancer who was making $85,000 per year.
4. Beer brewing in New Hampshire. Despite Smuttynose brewery’s financial success and popularity, it is still getting a $750,970 Community Development Block Grant to build a new brewery and restaurant facilities.
5. A covered bridge to nowhere. What list of government waste would be complete without a notorious “bridge to nowhere”? In this case, it’s $520,000 to fix the Stevenson Road Covered Bridge in Green County, Ohio, which was last used in 2003.

Those items are all chump change compared with how much is being wasted by FWaA in the military budget on day to day level. When you have a $707 billion budget, and a serious lack of oversight on how the money is spent, then that problem way overshadows stuff that's in the hundreds of thousands or even millions. The only statement above that was in the billions was the sugary drinks, fast food, and alcohol from foodstamps, which is something that should be addressed, but part of that is education for poor families that needs to be done.

 

[fskimospy]

I would have to agree that throwing a $10,000 part over the side of a ship is a waste, any idea why it was done?

Stupidity.

At the same time, not excusing such waste as you witnessed with your own eyes, I think number 4 below might be a slightly bigger problem with our naval services.



Federal Spending by the Numbers 2012:

1. A reality TV show in India. The Department of Agriculture’s Market Access Program spends $200 million a year to help U.S. agricultural trade associations and cooperatives advertise their products in foreign markets. In 2011, it funded a reality TV show in India that advertised U.S. cotton.
2. Studying pig poop. The Environmental Protection Agency awarded a $141,450 grant under the Clean Air Act to fund a Chinese study on swine manure and a $1.2 million grant to the United Nations for clean fuel promotion.
3. Amtrak snacks. Federally subsidized Amtrak lost $84.5 million on its food and beverage services in 2011 and $833.8 million over the past 10 years. It has never broken even on these services.
4. Using military exercises to boost biofuels. The U.S. Navy bought 450,000 gallons of biofuels for $12 million—or almost $27 per gallon—to conduct exercises to showcase the fuel and bring it closer toward commercialization. It is the largest biofuel purchase ever made by the government.
5. Conferences for government employees. In 2008 and 2009 alone, the Department of Justice spent $121 million to host or participate in 1,832 conferences.

Waste Book 2012:

1. “RoboSquirrel.” $325,000 was spent on a robotic squirrel named “RoboSquirrel.” This National Science Foundation grant was used to create a realistic-looking robotic squirrel for the purpose of studying how a rattlesnake would react to it.
2. Cupcakes. In Washington, D.C., and elsewhere across the country, cupcake shops are trending. The 10 cupcake shop owners who received $2 million in Small Business Administration loan guarantees, however, can only boast so much of their entrepreneurial ingenuity, since taxpayers are backing them up.
3. Food stamps for alcohol and junk food. Though they were intended to ensure hungry children received healthy meals, taxpayer-funded food stamps were instead spent on fast food at Taco Bell and Burger King; on non-nutritious foods such as candy, ice cream, and soft drinks; and on some 2,000 deceased persons in New York and Massachusetts. Food stamp recipients spent $2 billion on sugary drinks alone. Improper SNAP payments accounted for $2.5 billion in waste, including to one exotic dancer who was making $85,000 per year.
4. Beer brewing in New Hampshire. Despite Smuttynose brewery’s financial success and popularity, it is still getting a $750,970 Community Development Block Grant to build a new brewery and restaurant facilities.
5. A covered bridge to nowhere. What list of government waste would be complete without a notorious “bridge to nowhere”? In this case, it’s $520,000 to fix the Stevenson Road Covered Bridge in Green County, Ohio, which was last used in 2003.

As others have mentioned, I think you might want to check into a few of those more carefully. In particular, the swine waste one. That is TREMENDOUSLY useful research.

As a general rule taking press releases from politicians and politically activist think tanks like Heritage is a bad way to come by information as they are politically motivated to lie to you.

 

[ivwshane]

Not really.

Raising the debt limit allows us to borrow more.

We don't need the money to pay off debt. That can just be rolled over (issue a new bond to pay off the old one being retired). We did that last time.

Nor does it have any effect on money that has already been spent. New debt, however, does allow us to obtain money to pay for future obligations we have already promised to pay, whether that be govt employee salaries or whatever.

Refusing a debt ceiling increase would force us to spend only what we take in as revenues, which is a considerable amount.

Fern

Wow!

Of all people I would have thought you would know what raising the debt ceiling is about. Nope, instead you spew more bullshit talking points.

Let me help you. Read the first paragraph:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling

 

[Fern]

Wow!

Of all people I would have thought you would know what raising the debt ceiling is about. Nope, instead you spew more bullshit talking points.

Let me help you. Read the first paragraph:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling

There's no real difference.

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

There's no real difference.

Fern

The US is not legally permitted to spend less than what it has already appropriated in bills. What you are suggesting is that the US enter a logically irreconcilable situation in which the US is required by law to spend a set amount but is also prohibited by law from borrowing to spend that amount. The US would clearly be in default of numerous fiscal obligations were this to be the case.

The idea that the US can simply hit the debt ceiling and have no defaults comes from a fundamental ignorance of what the federal appropriations process and debt process is.

 

[Fern]

The US is not legally permitted to spend less than what it has already appropriated in bills. What you are suggesting is that the US enter a logically irreconcilable situation in which the US is required by law to spend a set amount but is also prohibited by law from borrowing to spend that amount. The US would clearly be in default of numerous fiscal obligations were this to be the case.

The idea that the US can simply hit the debt ceiling and have no defaults comes from a fundamental ignorance of what the federal appropriations process and debt process is.

Go back and look at what the poster said who I was responding to.

We do not need a debt ceiling increase to pay on "debt obligations". I understand debt obligations to mean outstanding bonds, notes and bills. This is the normal definition/understanding.

Existing obligations can be rolled over to new ones. In fact, this was the practice the last time we had a 'debt ceiling' showdown.

Fern

 

[berzerker60]

We don't need a debt ceiling, period. All it does is create pointless drama with a small but real risk of truly screwing the economy if it goes into effect.

 

[fskimospy]

Go back and look at what the poster said who I was responding to.

We do not need a debt ceiling increase to pay on "debt obligations". I understand debt obligations to mean outstanding bonds, notes and bills. This is the normal definition/understanding.

Existing obligations can be rolled over to new ones. In fact, this was the practice the last time we had a 'debt ceiling' showdown.

Fern

The last sentence of your post is the issue. Not raising the debt ceiling would not simply force us to only spend our revenues, it would force us to violate federal law and default on existing contractual obligations.

 

[fskimospy]

We don't need a debt ceiling, period. All it does is create pointless drama with a small but real risk of truly screwing the economy if it goes into effect.

It has long been a dumb idea, but now it's become a pretty dangerous one on top. When you have a political party that is willing to as a matter of practice attempt to hold the world economy hostage to get policy concessions that it failed to get through the normal legislative process you have a problem.

It should be abolished. Yesterday.

 

[Fern]

The last sentence of your post is the issue. Not raising the debt ceiling would not simply force us to only spend our revenues, it would force us to violate federal law and default on existing contractual obligations.

I'm aware of that and haven't said anything differently.

I'll draw your attention to this sentence:

New debt, however, does allow us to obtain money to pay for future obligations we have already promised to pay, whether that be govt employee salaries or whatever.

Fern