Gorilla Lives Matter!

[woolfe9998]

Hey to Eli, Waggy, Moonbeam, NS1, DrPizza, feralkid, Zorba, Perknose, sandorski... and everyone else who took the trouble to post.

The permissive parenting culture taking over has been a big gripe to me forever. If you want to know the right way to raise your kids, look up Montessori education. You'll be surprised to learn it's not an overbearing, heavily disciplined "culture". But, it does involve a LOT of parent involvement, which many are just too lazy to practice.

Anyway, I was curious what this liberal bastion thought of the gorilla issue, and was very surprised to find no topic about it! Couldn't decide whether to post one in Off Topic, my first choice, or P&N, where I figured it would end up anyway.

It all boils down to "culture". Permissive VS Disciplinarian in this case. Liberal VS Conservative in this forum. Many cultures are simply preferences, none actually "better" than another. Like Asian VS Latin, Sports VS Arts, and Car VS Boat. But, there are some cultures arguably preferable from one to another. Science VS Religion, Urban VS Rural, or Socialist VS Libertarian etc..

In this case the permissive culture had dire consequences in an obvious way. What isn't so obvious is how that type of parenting has led, and is leading this country in the wrong direction. Anybody who doesn't agree children should be raised with a work ethic, and knowing personal responsibility, is not doing their children or society any favors... Just the opposite.

I think you're interpreting this as a product of permissiveness on the part of the parent because, as you say, this has been a "big gripe" to you. However, you don't really know what happened here. Four year olds can be quite curious, no matter how well disciplined they are. It's quite possible the child just bolted when the mom had turned her head for 2 seconds to answer a question from one of her other kids. I think you're using the incident as an excuse to rant about a parenting style you don't like but you have no idea if that style was even at play here. You act as if stern disciple prevents any and all bad behavior. It doesn't. Some times if it's too strict it can even make it worse, especially for teenagers. And for the really young ones, you never know what they'll do in spite of having told them how not to behave 100 times.

 

[Zorba]

FYI: Here is the area the boy went through: http://1. bp. blogspot .com/-syxeVV3ZYMM/UGtGywoFwWI/AAAAAAAADO8/73-D7A74ryg/s1600/IMG_5171.JPG

Other info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1if-6MieX4

Nightline also showed the area tonight.

The video kind of makes it sound like the Gorillas can't get into the moat, but apparently that isn't true. Looks like the kid made it through a decent fence, 4 feet of thick bushes and an electric fence, then jump 15 feet into the moat. Considering zoos have to balance viewer experience with safety, I am not sure how much more they could've realistically done, except maybe line the fence with chain-link to prevent a child from going through. However, I am sure there will be an USDA and AZA(?) investigation into the matter.

EDIT: Apparently we can't directly link to blog spot.

 

[dank69]

When did helicopter parenting become a conservative vs liberal thing?

Example A:

The main thing that grinds my gears, is the lack of personal responsibility creeping into our "culture". That, and the entitlement mentality. Parents used to instill solid values and respect for others. Now, kids live without boundaries and are taught that others owe them everything, including respect. Being held responsible for anything is considered heavy handed and oppressive.

The fruits of this mindset are cities like Chicago, a dead gorilla and a zoo sure to be in litigation for years. Obligated to add ludicrous measures to protect the animals from idiots and their offspring.

Typically when a conservative talks about helicopter parenting, it's in the context of the good old days when 5 year-olds wandered the landscape until the street lights came on and how the liberals are pussifying America. When liberals talk about helicopter parenting, it is typically in the context of people actually being hyper-protective. It's the same core message but the delivery is very different and what actually qualifies as helicopter parenting tends to be quite different.

 

[dank69]

I think you're interpreting this as a product of permissiveness on the part of the parent because, as you say, this has been a "big gripe" to you. However, you don't really know what happened here. Four year olds can be quite curious, no matter how well disciplined they are. It's quite possible the child just bolted when the mom had turned her head for 2 seconds to answer a question from one of her other kids. I think you're using the incident as an excuse to rant about a parenting style you don't like but you have no idea if that style was even at play here. You act as if stern disciple prevents any and all bad behavior. It doesn't. Some times if it's too strict it can even make it worse, especially for teenagers. And for the really young ones, you never know what they'll do in spite of having told them how not to behave 100 times.

I am also interested to hear how he determined that permissive parenting was the cause of this incident. For all we know the parents beat the shit out of their kids on a daily basis.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The solution could be as simple as you need one adult per three children or whatever number makes sense.

 

[Atreus21]

Zoo did the right thing.

Parents are responsible for the safety of their children.

I have a four year old who can disappear like a ghost. Doesn't mean its not my responsibility if he gets into trouble.

 

[Atreus21]

What really sucks for the gorilla, is that if he has killed the boy instantly, before the dangerous animal team showed up, he would still be alive. I guess conservatives are right, always shoot to kill, never shoot to wound.

Negative.

 

[Zorba]

Negative.

Example A: South Florida zoo tiger that mauled keeper to death will not be put down (Although this case does help the Cincinnati Zoo's case that tranquilizers took too long to act)

Example B: http://www.seaworldofhurt.com/features/30-years-three-deaths-tilikums-tragic-story/ Not a great source, but shows that this guy killed 3 people and still lives.

Example C: http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/6214265-74/zoo-exhibit-dog Although one of the 11 was killed while recovering the body, I assume because he was still mauling it, not just because he was protecting it. But I doubt a Gorilla would feed on or protect a kill like a wild dog would.

 

[Zorba]

Typically when a conservative talks about helicopter parenting, it's in the context of the good old days when 5 year-olds wandered the landscape until the street lights came on and how the liberals are pussifying America. When liberals talk about helicopter parenting, it is typically in the context of people actually being hyper-protective. It's the same core message but the delivery is very different and what actually qualifies as helicopter parenting tends to be quite different.

Yeah, I can agree with that.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Yep, Animal Rights Supporters are having a cow about the death of the Cincinnati Zoo gorilla. But, not so much outrage for the animals killing children in Chicago every day. Soon to be born lives cut short matter even less. Interesting priorities, eh?

Anyway, I place blame at the feet of the parents. When raising my boys 25 years ago, I noticed how so many parents let their kids run wild in stores, restaurants and other public places. God forbid you tell those kids to quiet down or keep their hands off the merchandise! Discipline was simply not part of those parent's vocabulary. Two decades later, it's even worse. No doubt this zoo will be sued, and have to erect huge fences to protect kids from their idiot parents neglectfulness.

This zoo has three foot high fence rails, that have served well for the past 35 years. I don't know about where you live, but here, the railings on balconies etc. are only that same height...

Bah, it's the parent's fault, plain & simple. Lazy idiots!

A zoo with large animals does not have a tranquilizer gun on hand? Panic! Panic! Scream and shout! Bratty kid fell in OH HOW DO WE GET HIM OUT?

 

[Moonbeam]

The thing that is interesting here is the psychological reasons people have regarding their differing views as to how to raise children.

What is the truth? Spare the rod and spoil the child or apply the rod and create an enraged psychopath. The truth, of course and as always, is some third way. Children are selfish but altruistic at the same time. What is the value in punishing a child for what they are. The goal, in my opinion ought to be to develop empathy, to show it that selfish behavior is natural, but that the ultimate selfishness is to care for the other in the hope the other will care for you, that the child will realize happiness by choosing the higher form of selfishness, not the lower form. That requires the emphasis that it is certain behaviors that are destructive of higher selfishness and some are constructive of that goal, that it is always the behavior that is superior or inferior, not the nature of the child. For the mentally healthy, the greatest joys in life are found in caring and giving, in the presence of a capacity to love.

 

[TechBoyJK]

A zoo with large animals does not have a tranquilizer gun on hand? Panic! Panic! Scream and shout! Bratty kid fell in OH HOW DO WE GET HIM OUT?

They had one with them, but didn't use it, because it would have just made things worse.

They're not instantaneous. It could have taken 1-10 minutes for it to take effect, possibly enraging and confusing the gorilla in the process.

The tranq gun was right there, but it would have been stupid as fuck to use it.

 

[kage69]

Zoos everywhere should adopt a policy, a warning, that any deviation from designated viewing areas will result in a lifetime ban from the premises for both you and your party, no exceptions. Perhaps additional legalese to the effect of purchasing a ticket then exiting designated viewing areas means you forfeit your right to sue the establishment for any lack of attention or brains on your part.

Don't like those rules? Don't come to the zoo.

 

[kage69]

They had one with them, but didn't use it, because it would have just made things worse.

They're not instantaneous. It could have taken 1-10 minutes for it to take effect, possibly enraging and confusing the gorilla in the process.

The tranq gun was right there, but it would have been stupid as fuck to use it.

Yep.

This was the animal version of a 300lb+ disturbed man holding a child at knife point, and who was getting progressively more violent. I wish it were otherwise, but in cases like that there really is only one way to end it: sudden lead poisoning of the medula. Unless that dart contains something from a cone shell, it's wrong tool for the job!

 

[TechBoyJK]

anybody that's seen the scene where The Mountain kills Prince Oberyn would understand the potential harm this kid was in. This gorilla was known for easily smashing coconuts with a single hand... just... squeeze and pop.

 

[vi edit]

Zoos everywhere should adopt a policy, a warning, that any deviation from designated viewing areas will result in a lifetime ban from the premises for both you and your party, no exceptions. Perhaps additional legalese to the effect of purchasing a ticket then exiting designated viewing areas means you forfeit your right to sue the establishment for any lack of attention or brains on your part.

Don't like those rules? Don't come to the zoo.

And it still doesn't prevent anything.

The only real meaningful outcome to this is a full understanding of how the kid managed to get in there and see if there is a way that the zoo can reasonably prevent that access in the future.

 

[PricklyPete]

...<snip>...This gorilla was known for easily smashing coconuts with a single hand... just... squeeze and pop.

Might want to amend that before the spoiler Nazi's find it.

 

[alien42]

And it still doesn't prevent anything.

The only real meaningful outcome to this is a full understanding of how the kid managed to get in there and see if there is a way that the zoo can reasonably prevent that access in the future.

once again, in 38 years, this kid is the ONLY human to fall into that enclosure. the zoo doesn't need to do anything.

 

[waggy]

Yep.

This was the animal version of a 300lb+ disturbed man holding a child at knife point, and who was getting progressively more violent. I wish it were otherwise, but in cases like that there really is only one way to end it: sudden lead poisoning of the medula. Unless that dart contains something from a cone shell, it's wrong tool for the job!

agreed. I don't fault the zoo. from what experts have said the tranquilizer COULD have enraged the animal enough to kill. Some videos showed it getting more and more violent as people were yelling.

Also from the reading and videos i don't know what else the zoo could have done. the kid climbed over a fence, through bushes, over a electric fence and jumped into the mote...

 

[kage69]

And it still doesn't prevent anything.

The only real meaningful outcome to this is a full understanding of how the kid managed to get in there and see if there is a way that the zoo can reasonably prevent that access in the future.

I don't agree that such a policy wouldn't provide some element of deterrence, kids are usually able to process concepts like that no problem when it involves them being able to get what they want or not. You may have noticed my earlier disbelief regarding the enclosure's barriers, please take that to mean we are in agreement on the need to address inadequate barriers.

Stuff like this will always happen as long as there are zoos, if not involving patrons then employees.

 

[kage69]

Does that kid have a really high pain threshold or something? Had gloves and boots on maybe? Climbing over an electrified fence is... well, impressive really. We sure he didn't scurry underneath it?

My wife made a good point earlier. Zookeepers tend to have a lot of affection for their charges. They've had relationships with these animals for decades in some cases, know their personalities and histories on an individual basis. I don't think anyone outside that zoo has any right to talk down to them over if the shot was necessary or not. They were probably as excited and happy to do that as most people are when they have to put a long time, deeply loved pet down. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the handler/shooter needs a leave of absence, or therapy (or both).

 

[Ns1]

I have a 4 year old son. That's the perfect storm of stubborn, stupid and capable. I can turn my head at Home Depot and he's around a corner and trying to climb under displays. Just takes a second or two. Little shit is fast.

In case you ever visit a zoo:

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

<snip>

My wife made a good point earlier. Zookeepers tend to have a lot of affection for their charges. They've had relationships with these animals for decades in some cases, know their personalities and histories on an individual basis. I don't think anyone outside that zoo has any right to talk down to them over if the shot was necessary or not. They were probably as excited and happy to do that as most people are when they have to put a long time, deeply loved pet down. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the handler/shooter needs a leave of absence, or therapy (or both).

Very good point, they have a bond no less strong that a family has with a loved pet. Tragic this happened, and hopefully anything they learn from it will prevent future tragedies like this.

 

[Brainonska511]

Also from the reading and videos i don't know what else the zoo could have done. the kid climbed over a fence, through bushes, over a electric fence and jumped into the mote...

I haven't seen any mention of an electric fence.

From some posts I saw elsewhere, the enclosure fence looks like this:

And a schematic description of events:

 

[Balt]

Any barrier that is almost 100% impenetrable is almost guaranteed to also obstruct your view of the enclosure, which kind of defeats the whole point. Even glass/plexiglass/etc. gets really cruddy and opaque over time. Also even if you build the thing 8 feet high, I guarantee parents will just start lifting their kids up on their shoulders to see over it.

At some point we need to hold visitors accountable instead of trying to make everything in the world idiot-proof. Having volunteered at a zoo, it's really disheartening/concerning to see people throw their trash in the enclosures, bang on the glass for exhibits (when "please don't tap on the glass" is stenciled right in their face), and lift their kids up and let them stand on rails. Most people don't do this, thankfully, because if they did we'd just have to shut the damn thing down.