Got my car Dyno'd yesterday......

[Apex]

Originally posted by: RGUN
Yeah Im fooled by BMW and the fact that the viper can pull better skidpad numbers and handles better...

No worries, many people have been fooled by them.

The viper does pull better skidpad numbers than the non-CS Ferrari 360. Handle better? Not even close.

 

[RGUN]

Yeah Im gonna have to disagree with you, but its clear no one is giong to change anyones mind here... so Ill leave it at that.

*edit* responding to your points

1. Braking, yes weight transfers forward, Im not entirely familiar with the dynamics involved in braking, I do know the Viper has one of the shortest braking distance of any street car...

2. The traction provided by the tire is directly related to the weight pressing down on them, so Im not sure on this one, I would think with less weight you would have vague imprecise steering

3. 50/50 as you stated would be ideal under this loading condition

4. All that weight swinging around in the rear of the car would make the rear end very loose coming out of a corner, thus resulting in slower corner exits.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: RGUN
Yeah Im gonna have to disagree with you, but its clear no one is giong to change anyones mind here... so Ill leave it at that.

*edit* responding to your points

1. Braking, yes weight transfers forward, Im not entirely familiar with the dynamics involved in braking, I do know the Viper has one of the shortest braking distance of any street car...

2. The traction provided by the tire is directly related to the weight pressing down on them, so Im not sure on this one, I would think with less weight you would have vague imprecise steering

3. 50/50 as you stated would be ideal under this loading condition

4. All that weight swinging around in the rear of the car would make the rear end very loose coming out of a corner, thus resulting in slower corner exits.

That's not really how it works, but it's not always intuitive.

Here's a good basic primer. It doesn't give you all of the info, but the basic mathematics are sound:

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/

Other basics:

http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/contentspg.htm

If you want just a quick glance at how weight distribution affects handling, here's a really really basic look, all on one page. During the development of the 612 Scaglietti, they progressively pushed weight further and further back on the test mule to establish the effect on performance:

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0406_ferrari/index5.html

Ultimately, there's no substitude to hands on experience. Get on a proper track with a high powered mid-engined vehicle with slicks (or at the very least DOT-R) and you'll immediately notice the difference.

 

[MBrown]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
http://videorat.videohh.com/cobrasruleafix.wmv

That supercharger is nuts!!!

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: DaTT
Me thinks nowadays, powertrain loss is somewhere in the range of 10-12% RWD......or they under rated the motor.

They intentionally under rated the motor. The drivetrain loss is still around 15%-18%. There's no way that a RWD transmission has only a 10-12% loss.

Driveline loss on a 951 is in the 10% neighborhood and it's RWD. Factory rating was 217 at the crank, people have dyno-ed stock 951's with 100,000 miles and still gotten 198 at the wheels. (Mine gets a touch more... 275hp/300 torque at the wheels @ 15PSI.)

Believe it or not, RWD typically has less parasitic driveline loss than FWD.

ZV

Porsche is underrating the engine. There is no way that the drivetrain loss is only 10%. And FWD transmissions have lower parasitic drivetrain losses than RWD. The rear diff sucks up a lot since you're transferring the power 90 degrees.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: DJSfurry
BMW likewise.. also conservative of their figures. Haha looking at all these american cars makes me laugh. firstly they dont handle, then cars like the viper have 8.3 litre engines and only make 500 horsepower. Come on! It doesnt even handle either. yeesh. all that added weight from such a huge engine just isnt worth the overall impact it will have on the car..

Even worse was the previous gen of viper, 8.1 litres and 400 horsepower??? My friends 360 has 400 horsepower out of a 3.6 litre V8... Nowhere near the torque of a viper, but it would beat it in practically anything. one more thing. whats up with nascar? Bunch of cars going around in circles.. not saying its easy, as of course with everyone else running such similar cars on the track will make it hard and dangerous... however how is it exciting and what does it prove? Rally cars.. now that takes some serious skill and IMO is SO much more interesting to watch. Im pretty sure most of you here dont really care for that anyhow.. but thats my view anyhow. to each his own.

Using the "power per liter" argument makes you look like a total n00b.

And you're saying that Vipers can't handle? That's a very misinformed statement.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: DJSfurry
BMW likewise.. also conservative of their figures. Haha looking at all these american cars makes me laugh. firstly they dont handle, then cars like the viper have 8.3 litre engines and only make 500 horsepower. Come on! It doesnt even handle either. yeesh. all that added weight from such a huge engine just isnt worth the overall impact it will have on the car..

Even worse was the previous gen of viper, 8.1 litres and 400 horsepower??? My friends 360 has 400 horsepower out of a 3.6 litre V8... Nowhere near the torque of a viper, but it would beat it in practically anything. one more thing. whats up with nascar? Bunch of cars going around in circles.. not saying its easy, as of course with everyone else running such similar cars on the track will make it hard and dangerous... however how is it exciting and what does it prove? Rally cars.. now that takes some serious skill and IMO is SO much more interesting to watch. Im pretty sure most of you here dont really care for that anyhow.. but thats my view anyhow. to each his own.

Using the "power per liter" argument makes you look like a total n00b.

american cars aren't about being finely-tuned.. they're about being bad motherfvckers, and they do a d@mn good job at it.. i'd like to see any european car shake the floor like a viper

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: DJSfurry
I personally think the shelby cobra gt500 looks great. But its just details about the majority american cars that are laughable.. like corvettes using leaf spring suspension. i mean.. i would expect that from a thirdworld country, not a modern corvette. and yes, you would be hard pressed to find any cars with specs like that for 25k US however ii would get some nice performing european cars second hand. but thats just me.

You clearly don't understand the engineering reasons they use leaf spring suspension. There is nothing wrong with that type of suspension.

 

[ndee]

Originally posted by: MBrown

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
http://videorat.videohh.com/cobrasruleafix.wmv

That supercharger is nuts!!!

The sound of it would annoy me.

 

[DaTT]

Originally posted by: ndee

Originally posted by: MBrown

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
http://videorat.videohh.com/cobrasruleafix.wmv

That supercharger is nuts!!!

The sound of it would annoy me.

I have owned a supercharged car with the air silencer removed (1990 Thunderbird SC)....the sound is orgasmic.

 

[RGUN]

Originally posted by: DaTT

Originally posted by: ndee

Originally posted by: MBrown

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
http://videorat.videohh.com/cobrasruleafix.wmv

That supercharger is nuts!!!

The sound of it would annoy me.

I have owned a supercharged car with the air silencer removed (1990 Thunderbird SC)....the sound is orgasmic.

I witnessed this event..... Its an awkward situation

 

[JungleMan1]

Originally posted by: DJSfurry
BMW likewise.. also conservative of their figures. Haha looking at all these american cars makes me laugh. firstly they dont handle, then cars like the viper have 8.3 litre engines and only make 500 horsepower. Come on! It doesnt even handle either. yeesh. all that added weight from such a huge engine just isnt worth the overall impact it will have on the car..

Even worse was the previous gen of viper, 8.1 litres and 400 horsepower??? My friends 360 has 400 horsepower out of a 3.6 litre V8... Nowhere near the torque of a viper, but it would beat it in practically anything. one more thing. whats up with nascar? Bunch of cars going around in circles.. not saying its easy, as of course with everyone else running such similar cars on the track will make it hard and dangerous... however how is it exciting and what does it prove? Rally cars.. now that takes some serious skill and IMO is SO much more interesting to watch. Im pretty sure most of you here dont really care for that anyhow.. but thats my view anyhow. to each his own.

Viper doesnt handle? LOL, I stopped reading when you said this.

And you're comparing a $150K+ Ferrari 360 to an $80K Viper?

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: ndee

Originally posted by: MBrown

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
http://videorat.videohh.com/cobrasruleafix.wmv

That supercharger is nuts!!!

The sound of it would annoy me.

I just picked up a supercharger for my doggiemobile. 500 rear wheel hp. I'm hoping it doesn't whine that loudly.

 

[ndee]

Originally posted by: DaTT

Originally posted by: ndee

Originally posted by: MBrown

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
http://videorat.videohh.com/cobrasruleafix.wmv

That supercharger is nuts!!!

The sound of it would annoy me.

I have owned a supercharged car with the air silencer removed (1990 Thunderbird SC)....the sound is orgasmic.

To me, the sound in the video is just too high pitched. There's a cool high-pitched sound like the Ferrari's but this one sounds like a whiney little b!atch

 

[stnicralisk]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: arcenite

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: arcenite

Originally posted by: CraigRT

Originally posted by: arcenite
I wouldn't like those results. That sucks for a V8.

It's not that bad, are you kidding?

that's 300 crank HP easily.. much more than a lot of other V8's out there.

a stock 4.7L Dakota will dyno in the 200 range.. it's a reasonably quick truck too.

Many import V6s do just under a hair of these numbers, and they're V6's.

Not normally aspirated, they don't.
And number of cylinders is mostly irrelevant....the cubic inches is all that matters. Forced induction is simply a way of making a small displacement engine act bigger.

It's no more impressive to take a 4 cylinder and turbo it to the max and make it have 500 hp, than it is to take a 454 big block and do the same normally aspirated.
You have to forget that the 4 cylinder is a small engine at that point....putting the turbo on it makes it the same as a larger one....and you have to remember that you can always do the same to the larger engine, too.

Psst... 350Z, Eclipse GT V6, Etc...

None of those are even close to 273hp at the wheels.

You have to admit its getting pretty close. http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/2005/01/17/smallb3.html
300hp 3.5l v6 even assuming 15% power loss you would see 255hp to the wheels. That is pretty close to 273. Granted at this given time youre paying a premium to do it.

However even the Maxima puts down a lot of power, toyotas next gen camry is going to have close to ~275hp.

Once a CAMRY starts to encroach on your HP territory with a v6.. i think it becomes time to admit that an 460+ engine should be doing better.

 

[stnicralisk]

Originally posted by: DaTT

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: arcenite

Originally posted by: CraigRT

Originally posted by: arcenite
I wouldn't like those results. That sucks for a V8.

It's not that bad, are you kidding?

that's 300 crank HP easily.. much more than a lot of other V8's out there.

a stock 4.7L Dakota will dyno in the 200 range.. it's a reasonably quick truck too.

Many import V6s do just under a hair of these numbers, and they're V6's.

Not normally aspirated, they don't.
And number of cylinders is mostly irrelevant....the cubic inches is all that matters. Forced induction is simply a way of making a small displacement engine act bigger.

It's no more impressive to take a 4 cylinder and turbo it to the max and make it have 500 hp, than it is to take a 454 big block and do the same normally aspirated.
You have to forget that the 4 cylinder is a small engine at that point....putting the turbo on it makes it the same as a larger one....and you have to remember that you can always do the same to the larger engine, too.

Some of the most powerful F1 cars ever to race were turbocharged 4 cylinder engines making over 1000hp. Please, do go on about how impressive 500hp is out of a 454CI V8 though.

Any 500hp motor is impressive....but a V8 with 500HP will surley outlast any 4 banger with the same......plus, the V8 will have torque, and remember, HP sells cars, TQ wins races

500hp 1tq
vs
1hp 500tq

Who wins? Assuming that the tq monster doesnt dig through the ground trying to launch.

The truth is that the area under the curve is more important than the peak. This is why people say that torque is important - because generally a car with good torque has a better power curve than say a vtec engine. However dont be confused it is still horsepower that is winning that race its just that you may have a better distribution of that power throughout the gear.

 

[bob661]

For the person that posted the SRT4 numbers that sounds more like a car with Mopar Stage 2 installed. Stock SRT4's usually put out around 220-230whp. Here is SRT4 with Mopar Stage 2 installed. A little low on power but you get the idea.

 

[DaTT]

Tq wins!

 

[exdeath]

I'll have to get my Cobra on a dyno after I get the rear end rebuilt.
Pumping up the 8.8" IRS with a 31 spline Torsen worm gear LSD with upgraded axles, 4.10 gears and girdle.

Pretty much expecting, as is common with the KB blowers, to have a flat lined 700 lb-ft torque curve from 2000 to 5500 RPM so we shall see.

 

[DaTT]

Originally posted by: exdeath
I'll have to get my Cobra on a dyno after I get the rear end rebuilt.
Pumping up the 8.8" IRS with a 31 spline Torsen worm gear LSD with upgraded axles, 4.10 gears and girdle.

Pretty much expecting, as is common with the KB blowers, to have a flat lined 700 lb-ft torque curve from 2000 to 5500 RPM so we shall see.

Indeed we shall. Post a pic please.