government and religion

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: JacobJ
Do you think it is OK for the government to coerce a person into attending a religious service?

Don't fret, we'll be finding out soon enough.

I know you have an actual opinion about this hidden somewhere deep inside your lovely musings...

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: JacobJ
Do you think it is OK for the government to coerce a person into attending a religious service?

Don't fret, we'll be finding out soon enough.

I know you have an actual opinion about this hidden somewhere deep inside your lovely musings...

I don't believe government should be allowed to but 52% of the Country agrees with government forcing religion so there is nothing I can do about it anyway.

 

[zendari]

Dave, what have you been forced to do in the name of religion? You seem to bash religion just fine.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: JacobJ
Do you think it is OK for the government to coerce a person into attending a religious service?

Don't fret, we'll be finding out soon enough.

No you won't, and 52% of the population doesn't want it either. Virtually no one wants manditory church attendance.

There are a great many reasons not to like this administration. Heaven knows I don't like them. Resorting to ridiculous claims does nothing but serve as ammunition for Bush loyalists who will use outrageous claims against those trying to make a cohesive logical argument.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: shrumpage
I missed the first link referring to the firebombing. All the others refer to things much earler. 6-10 years one deals with a nut job who commited various crimes not cliniic blowing up - another recent article that you posted was just people worried about somethign happening after that person was excuted. One of the cases was in Canada.

one case in the last 6 years - and where is the link to fundelmentalist christians?

This is old news - there is not this massive wave of terrorist clinic bombings.

JFK didn't attempt to force Catholocism on anyone. Nor did he earmark government monies for catholic ends. You say we survived the scandal...well actually, he didn't. And the resultant chaos of his execution had MASSIVE impact on our nation. Nobody said anything about atheism btw, except you. Thank you for announcing what you so clearly fear however.

Why do you assume i fear atheism - was trying to point out that every president has had some declared faith (except two, i think). There has been funding to other organizations including muslim groups, which have a large influence in various prison programs. It is not just one sect of Christianity or just Christianity - it is open to all faith base programs.

Can you answer a question that was in my first response? How is Bush pushing his religon.

This will be the last time I take the time to refute your outright lies/misrepresentations. If you can't deal with the facts at this point there is absolutely no hope for you.

1. I said violence, or threat of violence. Article #2 deals with increased security alerts due to perceived threats.

2. Articles 1 & 4 both occured within the last 6 years (granted #3 was addressing stuff more than 6). So in direct refutation; first you said it was ALL MORE THAN 10 YEARS AGO, which I disproved. THEN YOU SAID IT WAS ALL MORE THAN 6 YEARS AGO, which I just disproved again.

3. #1 Was in LA, #2 was nationwide out of GA, #3 was all over America, #4 was in OH. I'm not seeing where those are in Canada.

4. Quoted directly from the article;

said the Rev. Donald Spitz, a Chesapeake, Va., minister whose Army of God Web site posted Waagner's threats to kill

Which would lead one to this website (NSFW - GRAPHIC), which displays common fundamentalist rhetoric (not to mention a 'who's in prison' list that includes other persons committing crimes in the last 6 years btw).

Now, I did all that with close to the first 4 hits from a google search that yielded about 1,400,000 hits. Furthermore, the FBI has a task force on anti-abortion violence (hence Clinton signing that new law back when he was in, protecting access to abortion clinics). The FBI probably doesn't have active task forces on too many things that don't actually happen. You'll find a large percentage of their efforts are focused on radical Christian fundamentalism, since those are the ones that do this crap.

Every President had a declared faith. Well, there ya go, can't argue with that. You've obviously just totally refuted that there are Christian terrorists out there. You've exposed every report of criminal activity based on religion to be a complete fabrication. Yessir. While you were at it I guess you probably disproved the holocaust too...cause you know, Hitler had a declared faith too. Why don't you mention that puppies are cute while you're at it, thereby ending animal cruelty. I can't possibly prove your completely unrelated statement wrong, so I guess I should just go home, eh?

How has Bush been pushing religion?
here
here
here
here
here
here
There is simply no question that (rather for honest personal conviction or political gain) Bushco courts religion openly. He does so more than any president I've ever studied, and that view is supported by a large amount of the reporting on his presidency. For a country that is supposed to divide church and state (ie no state endorsed religious practice) he comes dangerously close.

Furthermore I wasn't hinging my argument on abortion clinic bombings. You asked for examples of bad things fundamentalists do, I mentioned one. I NEVER said there was a new massive wave of terrorism. I said precisely that there had been terrorist attacks on abortion clinics, and I was right. YOU chose to try to weasel out of it by claiming distance of time since events, and again I refuted you and was correct. Then you adjusted your timeline, and were again PROVEN wrong. In other words, you've been absolutely totally wrong. Abortion violence not enough for you? Would you like to discuss the violence against gay establishments, lynchings of homosexuals, etc? If I wasn't so busy in school I'd be happy to sit down and link the few million articles that could be found with any google search on the psychological dangers of fundamentalism, the history of christian fundamentalist violence and oppression, recent violence committed by fundamentalist individuals and organizations, etc.

But you know what? I shouldn't have to. Anyone with a brain and a few fingers can do a google search and find I'm INSTANTLY totally supported. You can whine and nitpick all you want, but the bottom line is that fundamentalism presents a clear and present danger. I'm done with you. You haven't effectively argued anything but your lack of reading comprehension and narrow-scoped view of the issues. Good day sir.

When a Christian says they are a fundamentalist, what does that mean?

Well, they might be meaning anything by it. But what I'm discussing is:

Absolute adherence to the text contained within holy texts as being the only and literal truth (for ALL people), coupled with a desire to bring society into accord with the teachings and limitations of those texts by any means.

Both parts are required to create a danger. Either part alone, while open to debates of validity, are not very dangerous.

 

[JEDIYoda]

you guys have tuned a patheticly funny thread into an even funnier thread...hehee...

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: shrumpage

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: shrumpage
I missed the first link referring to the firebombing. All the others refer to things much earler. 6-10 years one deals with a nut job who commited various crimes not cliniic blowing up - another recent article that you posted was just people worried about somethign happening after that person was excuted. One of the cases was in Canada.

one case in the last 6 years - and where is the link to fundelmentalist christians?

This is old news - there is not this massive wave of terrorist clinic bombings.

JFK didn't attempt to force Catholocism on anyone. Nor did he earmark government monies for catholic ends. You say we survived the scandal...well actually, he didn't. And the resultant chaos of his execution had MASSIVE impact on our nation. Nobody said anything about atheism btw, except you. Thank you for announcing what you so clearly fear however.

Why do you assume i fear atheism - was trying to point out that every president has had some declared faith (except two, i think). There has been funding to other organizations including muslim groups, which have a large influence in various prison programs. It is not just one sect of Christianity or just Christianity - it is open to all faith base programs.

Can you answer a question that was in my first response? How is Bush pushing his religon.

This will be the last time I take the time to refute your outright lies/misrepresentations. If you can't deal with the facts at this point there is absolutely no hope for you.

1. I said violence, or threat of violence. Article #2 deals with increased security alerts due to perceived threats.

2. Articles 1 & 4 both occured within the last 6 years (granted #3 was addressing stuff more than 6). So in direct refutation; first you said it was ALL MORE THAN 10 YEARS AGO, which I disproved. THEN YOU SAID IT WAS ALL MORE THAN 6 YEARS AGO, which I just disproved again.

3. #1 Was in LA, #2 was nationwide out of GA, #3 was all over America, #4 was in OH. I'm not seeing where those are in Canada.

4. Quoted directly from the article;

said the Rev. Donald Spitz, a Chesapeake, Va., minister whose Army of God Web site posted Waagner's threats to kill

Which would lead one to this website (NSFW - GRAPHIC), which displays common fundamentalist rhetoric (not to mention a 'who's in prison' list that includes other persons committing crimes in the last 6 years btw).

Now, I did all that with close to the first 4 hits from a google search that yielded about 1,400,000 hits. Furthermore, the FBI has a task force on anti-abortion violence (hence Clinton signing that new law back when he was in, protecting access to abortion clinics). The FBI probably doesn't have active task forces on too many things that don't actually happen. You'll find a large percentage of their efforts are focused on radical Christian fundamentalism, since those are the ones that do this crap.

Every President had a declared faith. Well, there ya go, can't argue with that. You've obviously just totally refuted that there are Christian terrorists out there. You've exposed every report of criminal activity based on religion to be a complete fabrication. Yessir. While you were at it I guess you probably disproved the holocaust too...cause you know, Hitler had a declared faith too. Why don't you mention that puppies are cute while you're at it, thereby ending animal cruelty. I can't possibly prove your completely unrelated statement wrong, so I guess I should just go home, eh?

How has Bush been pushing religion?
here
here
here
here
here
here
There is simply no question that (rather for honest personal conviction or political gain) Bushco courts religion openly. He does so more than any president I've ever studied, and that view is supported by a large amount of the reporting on his presidency. For a country that is supposed to divide church and state (ie no state endorsed religious practice) he comes dangerously close.

Furthermore I wasn't hinging my argument on abortion clinic bombings. You asked for examples of bad things fundamentalists do, I mentioned one. I NEVER said there was a new massive wave of terrorism. I said precisely that there had been terrorist attacks on abortion clinics, and I was right. YOU chose to try to weasel out of it by claiming distance of time since events, and again I refuted you and was correct. Then you adjusted your timeline, and were again PROVEN wrong. In other words, you've been absolutely totally wrong. Abortion violence not enough for you? Would you like to discuss the violence against gay establishments, lynchings of homosexuals, etc? If I wasn't so busy in school I'd be happy to sit down and link the few million articles that could be found with any google search on the psychological dangers of fundamentalism, the history of christian fundamentalist violence and oppression, recent violence committed by fundamentalist individuals and organizations, etc.

But you know what? I shouldn't have to. Anyone with a brain and a few fingers can do a google search and find I'm INSTANTLY totally supported. You can whine and nitpick all you want, but the bottom line is that fundamentalism presents a clear and present danger. I'm done with you. You haven't effectively argued anything but your lack of reading comprehension and narrow-scoped view of the issues. Good day sir.

I was wrong about the specfics about the abortion violence, but what is right is:
It has declined.
it is supported by a very small minority.

You've ignored my example about the ELF - a radical enviromental group that advocates and practice violence. And yes they are also watched by the FBI. I don't lump all enviromental groups as dangerous because of the actions of the fringe.

If Bush talking about religon is how you view him pushing it on us, fine, can't change your mind about that. But i talk about my kids at work - but i'm not pushing them on people. When Bush mandates everyone to go to chruch, or to pray everyday, or force women to wear head coverings - i'm not going worry about he God word count in his speeches.

Once again you try to paint everyone with a broad brush violence against gays is commited by (or least majority) christian fundementalists? At would like to hear the statisics on that.

Want to talk body count? How many millions have died, killed, murdered, excuted under secularists and there ideas in the last century? Communistm has been pegged around a 100 million deaths. At that point your not even talking about the abuse of people, rights, and the misery those secularist ideas have put people through, and still do.

You bet I ignored it, because we're not talking about radical environmental groups. We're discussing the interactions between government & religion, and I'm specifically dealing with the inherent dangers to society presented by fundamentalism and (in more modern times) evangelicals.

No, I didn't paint with a broad brush at all. I was very careful to point out in pretty much every post that I wasn't including everyone in those headings. I indicated that members of those groups were more likely to be a problem, and/or that the inherent ideals of those groups would force negative conflicts. I believe I frequently pointed out that these generalities did NOT apply to everyone; merely that it was a very real danger.

Yup, there were dead under communism, same as just about every other form of government. How many of the deaths were about the religious aspect, and how many about the socio-economic aspect?

Make sure you include christians in the list of groups that atrocities were committed for (ie witch trials, exclusions, crusades, McCartheism, etc). What I mean is that religion is pretty much a natural instigator of violence and oppression...from any group towards any group. That alone calls into question its validity and merit...and I'm not talking about faith here, just the religious aspect.