grade abe lincoln

[Tommunist]

all this talk of grading presidents got me wondering who people think the best and worst presidents are and abe lincoln often comes up as being one of the best AND one of the worst. what do you guys think?

oh and to clear this up now:

abe didn't start up the civil war to end slavery (although it helped end it this was not his intent). so lets avoid that obvious pitfall right now.

 

[Todd33]

The last good Republican?

He's be perfect A if it wasn't for his micromanagement of the war. That and he should have ducked.

 

[magomago]

definitely one of the best. He was faced with a challange and came out on top~
That is the problem with our other presidents...most are just mediocre, because they never really had any major hurdle that they had to clear. I remember Clinton once said he wished some major event occured during his presidency so he could prove his leadership, etc.

 

[Tommunist]

i should also note a lot of people complain about abe b/c he preserved the union which many argue wasn't a constitutional move. i'm not expert but i think his decision was borderline.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Tommunist
i should also note a lot of people complain about abe b/c he preserved the union which many argue wasn't a constitutional move. i'm not expert but i think his decision was borderline.

Read Article 1, section 10 and Article 4 section 3.

Those southern states were in direct violation of our consitution. Lincoln had a duty to protect the consitution of the United States as stated in Article 2, section 1 "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Tommunist
i should also note a lot of people complain about abe b/c he preserved the union which many argue wasn't a constitutional move. i'm not expert but i think his decision was borderline.

People on both sides of that issue have their points but regardless, I fully agree with Lincoln's decsion. The CSA was looking to turn the clock back to the era of the Articles of Confederation which was simply unworkable to provide for the needs of a nation.

He was a truely remarkable man of great political skill, will, and intellect.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist
i should also note a lot of people complain about abe b/c he preserved the union which many argue wasn't a constitutional move. i'm not expert but i think his decision was borderline.

Read Article 1, section 10 and Article 4 section 3.

Those southern states were in direct violation of our consitution. Lincoln had a duty to protect the consitution of the United States as stated in Article 2, section 1 "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

is clause 2 the important part?

Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

I'm not clear on how this says that states can't seceed from the union...

 

[Todd33]

In hindsight, we might be better off today if the south won. Our federal tax money would not be flowing from blue to red states. Then they could outlaw abortion and all the whit trash chicks could come north for safe abortions. No gay folks would live in the south, so no problems with the marriage thing. They could cut taxes for the rich, pollute and intoxicate their children, then cut medical funding. They could cut education spending, that's socialism. Then we could all laugh at our ignorant, poor, sick, semi-retarded neighbors.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Todd33
In hindsight, we might be better off today if the south won. Our federal tax money would not be flowing from blue to red states. Then they could outlaw abortion and all the whit trash chicks could come north for safe abortions. No gay folks would live in the south, so no problems with the marriage thing. They could cut taxes for the rich, pollute and intoxicate their children, then cut medical funding. They could cut education spending, that's socialism. Then we could all laugh at our ignorant, poor, sick, semi-retarded neighbors.

maybe - the south has a fair amount of natural resources though...

 

[piasabird]

He was raised in a log cabin. He was a lawyer. He once failed at an election bid for his pro-abolitionist stance. Later he became president in a time when the country could have been torn apart, but he held it together and faced the most trying time our country has ever faced. He wanted to be against slavery, but he knew that would make it hard to get eleected as president so he ran on a platform of status quo. You would have to read some of his latter speeches to understand his true feelings on slavery.

Lincoln lived in a tough time but he did a great job and was assasinated for being such a great leader.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: piasabird
He was raised in a log cabin.

that's enough for me - abe lincoln president #1!!!!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist
i should also note a lot of people complain about abe b/c he preserved the union which many argue wasn't a constitutional move. i'm not expert but i think his decision was borderline.

Read Article 1, section 10 and Article 4 section 3.

Those southern states were in direct violation of our consitution. Lincoln had a duty to protect the consitution of the United States as stated in Article 2, section 1 "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

is clause 2 the important part?

Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

I'm not clear on how this says that states can't seceed from the union...

This is article 1 section 10.

Ill highlight the important parts.

Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.


No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.


No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.


Article 4 section 3

Section 3. New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.


The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.


The south by forming a confederation were in violation of the constitution. They had neither the right or the precedent to form such a confederation.

Lincoln had a sworn duty to force the south back into the United States.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist
i should also note a lot of people complain about abe b/c he preserved the union which many argue wasn't a constitutional move. i'm not expert but i think his decision was borderline.

Read Article 1, section 10 and Article 4 section 3.

Those southern states were in direct violation of our consitution. Lincoln had a duty to protect the consitution of the United States as stated in Article 2, section 1 "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

is clause 2 the important part?

Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

I'm not clear on how this says that states can't seceed from the union...

This is article 1 section 10.

Ill highlight the important parts.

Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.


No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.


No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.


Article 4 section 3

Section 3. New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.


The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.


The south by forming a confederation were in violation of the constitution. They had neither the right or the precedent to form such a confederation.

Lincoln had a sworn duty to force the south back into the United States.

doesn't creating the federation seem to imply that the states are still part of the union? if they seceeded first wouldn't this make them exempt since they are no longer part of the union?

 

[Genx87]

Well since you cant really get a group of states to do the same action all at once it is obvious they were working together whether it was written or not.

South Carolina may have left the union but the union didnt recognize their right to leave. South Carolina was property of the United States and as such even if they said they left are still under the control of the United States.

The United States went to quell the uprising.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Todd33
In hindsight, we might be better off today if the south won. Our federal tax money would not be flowing from blue to red states. Then they could outlaw abortion and all the whit trash chicks could come north for safe abortions. No gay folks would live in the south, so no problems with the marriage thing. They could cut taxes for the rich, pollute and intoxicate their children, then cut medical funding. They could cut education spending, that's socialism. Then we could all laugh at our ignorant, poor, sick, semi-retarded neighbors.

Oh..but don't you know that the north has its own version of redneck? Yep, there is trailer-trash everywhere.

And wait, you live in Cali? Hahhahaha..making fun of the south and you live in California. That's great.

 

[sunzt]

I remember that Time magazine did a story on abe a few months back. I Highly suggest you read up on it if you're interested in what the man really was like. I liked him and the article and I'll give them an A

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Todd33
The last good Republican?

He's be perfect A if it wasn't for his micromanagement of the war. That and he should have ducked.

Ironic, do you support the Patriot Act?

Abe Lincoln bent and broke the constitution more than Bush ever has in his time of crisis. I'm wondering why you libs don't despise Abe Lincoln for what he did as you despise Bush for what he did in a time of crisis.

Side note I gave him a B, I have no problem with what he did or Bush has done. Sustaining the nation is a nation's number #1 priority despite what many idealists will tell you.

 

[tommywishbone]

Come on people! He had that absurd 'beard with no mustashe' thing going on. Plus that 'four score' speech; what the heck is a score? F-

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

Originally posted by: Todd33
The last good Republican?

He's be perfect A if it wasn't for his micromanagement of the war. That and he should have ducked.

Ironic, do you support the Patriot Act?

Abe Lincoln bent and broke the constitution more than Bush ever has in his time of crisis. I'm wondering why you libs don't despise Abe Lincoln for what he did as you despise Bush for what he did in a time of crisis.

Side note I gave him a B, I have no problem with what he did or Bush has done. Sustaining the nation is a nation's number #1 priority despite what many idealists will tell you.

a lot of people genuinly question the level of "crisis" we are in but fortunately we have a nice color coded system to help! history will show how much crisis we were really in i suppose....

 

[Jerm324]

How is South Carolina property of the United States? It joined of its own free will and as such had a right to leave if they believed the protections of the union were no longer beneficial to them. When first southern states left the union they became independent nations until they formed the CSA in February 1861. South Carolina seceded in December 1860 and when it formed the CSA, it and the other states were no longer bound to any provisions of the US constitution, as they were independent nations. The later states who seceded also had short periods of independence before they joined the Confederacy. Just because the federal government didn't recognize their right to leave the union, doesn't mean they didn't have such a right.

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

a lot of people genuinly question the level of "crisis" we are in but fortunately we have a nice color coded system to help! history will show how much crisis we were really in i suppose....

Of course, as is their right.

Alot of people genuinely questioned our involvement in World War 1, World War 2, Korea, 1991 Gulf War, Kosovo, and this war.

Alot of people back in the 1940's said, "Uhh Japan is the other way, why are we going to Germany again? It was Japan that attacked us not Germany."

Notice how familiar that is to, " Uhh why are we in Iraq? The problem is in Afghanistan. We were attacked by Al Qaeda not Saddam."


Point is:

1) If there isn't another tremendous terrorist attack in America
2) If Iraq pans out
3) If the war on terror is actually won (not declared won)

George Bush will be remembered in the history books as one of the great American presidents. Sure our generation will hate him or love him til we die, but after that it all depends on what the history books think about him which will in turn be decided by how all of this pans out.

If he fails, he will be remember just like LBJ is remember, which is as a total nutcase screw up. But if he succeeds, despite all of the questionable things he has done, he will be remember well in history.

Abe Lincoln believe it or not made decisions that were well beyond controversial and well into criminal. Bush hasn't been as bad. But Lincoln was successful in what he did, where as the jury is still out on Bush, so history only remembers the good stuff.

 

[johnnobts]

Abe Lincoln believe it or not made decisions that were well beyond controversial and well into criminal. Bush hasn't been as bad. But Lincoln was successful in what he did, where as the jury is still out on Bush, so history only remembers the good stuff.

 

[Praetorian7]

Lincoln made some poor choices in who would lead the Union Army in the early going of the Civil War. The war cold of been won much sooner if McClellan had attacked instead of stalling.

 

[Cooler]

Gave him a B+ since he held the USA together in civil war.

 

[PatboyX]

F.
another white male prez?!?!!?
doubt it!