Graduating Law School in 2 Weeks - Reflections

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DigDug

Guest
Mar 21, 2002
3,143
0
0
Thanks for the info. I'm thinking about going to law school for patent law. Do you know anyone going that route and if so, what's their experience?

IP USED to be the ticket to easy wealth in the legal field. Those with science degrees, whether it be CS, biology, math, physics, etc, had an easier time getting a job, and therefore the caveats about class ranking and school quality didn't apply as much, because there was such a dearth of qualified candidiates for this, however, two things apply:

1. For you to take advantage of this, you still have to be interest in intellectual property. This can be fun stuff (music copyright, trrademark, and unfair competition), but the nature of the practice also makes you on some level, the legal equivalent of a bench chemist. Constantly dealing with the scientific side of things.
2. People have quickly caught on to this, ESPECIALLY because of the tech boom, and because of that (1) alot more "science people" are in law school, trying their luck at this, and (2) alot of the IP firms, that is, firms concentrating on intellectual property, have dissolved. Pennie Edmonds, Lyon and Lyon, Brobeck, and the like are all dead and gone.

Regarding Part time

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and those who stand the most to take advantage of this are those already established in fields (read: job experience and skill) and looking to augment it with a legal competence. There are several part time programs at VERY competitive schools like Georgetown, GW, and here in NY, Fordham. The requirements to get in aren't as stiff, but thats because USNEWS doesn't factor part-time admissions in, therefore, the schools themselves don't feel the need to play to stringency game. That means two things: (1) you get the same education, which in reality, is the same among ALL law schools in the country, and (2) you get the name of prestigious school you can align yourself with. To go into a part-time as a completely new career change is an option, however, it requires discipline nonetheless. You'll be studying after work and often at night. This isn't easy to do. The bottom line is this. A law degree is only as useful as at is depending on the career, you as a part-timer can apply it to.

Here's a quick rundown of the legal job opportunities, REGARDLESS of the area in the country which you live:

1. BIGlaw: These are jobs at the most prestigious firms. If you are NY, thesea re at the headquarters of most of the prestigious firms in the country. NY is, hands down, the legal capital of the US.
2. MIDlaw: these are also excellent firms, and are only distinguished from BIGlaw, not in the type of work you'll be doing, but the salary paid. Often $70-90k. Ironically, getting a job at these firms, at least in NY, is even harder to do so from a less-well-known school, simply because they don't have the resources to "train" a new law graduate like a big law firm does. MANY of the BIGlaw firms lose up to 70% of their lawschool hires in the first two years to these smaller firms, and its expected. for example, my law firm hires 70 law school students each and EVERY year. Why? Because in 2 years, 95% will have quit and moved down the ladder to less pay, but more sane working lifestyles. Working at the big firms is a pedigree and a training ground and nothing more.
3. Small-law: a think I've made this term up, since I haven't seen it before, but it comprises the "mom and pop" firms who do "general" legal work, and who clearly don't have the resources to train lawyers, but will hire a person or two every year, hoping they'll stay forever.

In NY, the biglaw firms are too big to list, but for example:

Cravath, Swaine and Moore (#1 firm in the world)
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen U& Katz (#2 often in the ranknings of profits. First year out of law school = 200k!)
Sullivan and Cromwelll
Cleary, Gottleib
Skadden, Arps
Shearman Sterling...

and so on...


in Chicago:

Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Mawe
...and the rest are Branch offices of NY's best (and this is the case for the rest of the countries big cities)
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Would having a Masters degree in Accounting by any means mitigate a bad undergraduate GPA?
 

DigDug

Guest
Mar 21, 2002
3,143
0
0
DONT EVER GET BOUGHT INTO SPECIFIC PROGRAMS!


Unlike college and grad school, the fact that a law school has a great "program in IP" is marketing BULLSH1T. There is no such thing as a major in lawshchool. There is something called a concentration, but that's a joke. For example, the best students from my school, me included, have NO CONCENTRATION. We've taken classes from all areas and have nothing specialized at all......
 

DigDug

Guest
Mar 21, 2002
3,143
0
0
Would having a Masters degree in Accounting by any means mitigate a bad undergraduate GPA?


To a certain extent yes, but you have to realize that UG GPA means nothing. In ALL of my interviews, NOT ONCE DID they ask for my undegraduate transcript. As I will write in another post, law school success has ONLY TO DO with law school grades.


My GPA UNDERGRAD: 2.5


...and where am I? At a top ten firm. WHy? the ONLY thing they EVER looked at was my law school GPA.


But that brings up another point.......,first year grades. See me next post, coming soon, about what legal employers care about.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: DigDug
Would having a Masters degree in Accounting by any means mitigate a bad undergraduate GPA?


To a certain extent yes, but you have to realize that UG GPA means nothing. In ALL of my interviews, NOT ONCE DID they ask for my undegraduate transcript. As I will write in another post, law school success has ONLY TO DO with law school grades.


My GPA UNDERGRAD: 2.5


...and where am I? At a top ten firm. WHy? the ONLY thing they EVER looked at was my law school GPA.


But that brings up another point.......,first year grades. See me next post, coming soon, about what legal employers care about.

Ahhh, nono, I'm asking about law school admissions. I'm in my third year of undergrad, finishing a BS Economics, minor in Mathematics, and I'm applying to the business school for a BBA in Accounting; if I get in, I have a reasonable shot of getting into their 1-year Masters of Accounting program. Assuming I do get in, I'm planning on applying to that and delaying law school apps for another year, so that I can focus on honing my skills in accounting (interning during the summers, etc.), and maybe save a little money. Then I'm going to start looking at schools. I have a 3.37 GPA right now, in a final year, I can bring it up max to a 3.45, and so I need to do something to mitigate for that damned sophomore year. (failed math major, ).

Cheers!
Nate
 

DigDug

Guest
Mar 21, 2002
3,143
0
0
yes, I've heard GM is a law school on the rise. Not in the same class yet though as GW, UVA, and G'town.

This "on the rise" propaganda is just that. Garbage.

OKay I have to go to sleep. But I will write a book on this. Here's something to leave you with:


1. Getting jobs is NOT entirely about lawschool ranking. That is. The known lawschools are the places they hire from, and the unknown, no matter how well ranked they've become are still on the outer circle.
2. Undergrad GPA and school pedigree matters very little. I went to a famous undergrad and did HORRIBLY. Never once was I asked for an UG transcript in ANY interview of job offer.
3. Success in law school means being at the top of your class after FIRST YEAR. If you are in the top 10% after first year, you can SLAck FOR THE NEXT TWO. i WAS top 5% after first year, I've since got Horrible grades, and I mean horrible, but I still have a gfreat job. WHY? Because hiring at the top firms is after your first year grades! There's a huge movement to make lawschool only two years. There's a reason why.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: DigDug
Thanks for the info. I'm thinking about going to law school for patent law. Do you know anyone going that route and if so, what's their experience?

IP USED to be the ticket to easy wealth in the legal field. Those with science degrees, whether it be CS, biology, math, physics, etc, had an easier time getting a job, and therefore the caveats about class ranking and school quality didn't apply as much, because there was such a dearth of qualified candidiates for this, however, two things apply:

1. For you to take advantage of this, you still have to be interest in intellectual property. This can be fun stuff (music copyright, trrademark, and unfair competition), but the nature of the practice also makes you on some level, the legal equivalent of a bench chemist. Constantly dealing with the scientific side of things.
2. People have quickly caught on to this, ESPECIALLY because of the tech boom, and because of that (1) alot more "science people" are in law school, trying their luck at this, and (2) alot of the IP firms, that is, firms concentrating on intellectual property, have dissolved. Pennie Edmonds, Lyon and Lyon, Brobeck, and the like are all dead and gone.

Regarding Part time

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and those who stand the most to take advantage of this are those already established in fields (read: job experience and skill) and looking to augment it with a legal competence. There are several part time programs at VERY competitive schools like Georgetown, GW, and here in NY, Fordham. The requirements to get in aren't as stiff, but thats because USNEWS doesn't factor part-time admissions in, therefore, the schools themselves don't feel the need to play to stringency game. That means two things: (1) you get the same education, which in reality, is the same among ALL law schools in the country, and (2) you get the name of prestigious school you can align yourself with. To go into a part-time as a completely new career change is an option, however, it requires discipline nonetheless. You'll be studying after work and often at night. This isn't easy to do. The bottom line is this. A law degree is only as useful as at is depending on the career, you as a part-timer can apply it to.

Here's a quick rundown of the legal job opportunities, REGARDLESS of the area in the country which you live:

1. BIGlaw: These are jobs at the most prestigious firms. If you are NY, thesea re at the headquarters of most of the prestigious firms in the country. NY is, hands down, the legal capital of the US.
2. MIDlaw: these are also excellent firms, and are only distinguished from BIGlaw, not in the type of work you'll be doing, but the salary paid. Often $70-90k. Ironically, getting a job at these firms, at least in NY, is even harder to do so from a less-well-known school, simply because they don't have the resources to "train" a new law graduate like a big law firm does. MANY of the BIGlaw firms lose up to 70% of their lawschool hires in the first two years to these smaller firms, and its expected. for example, my law firm hires 70 law school students each and EVERY year. Why? Because in 2 years, 95% will have quit and moved down the ladder to less pay, but more sane working lifestyles. Working at the big firms is a pedigree and a training ground and nothing more.
3. Small-law: a think I've made this term up, since I haven't seen it before, but it comprises the "mom and pop" firms who do "general" legal work, and who clearly don't have the resources to train lawyers, but will hire a person or two every year, hoping they'll stay forever.

In NY, the biglaw firms are too big to list, but for example:

Cravath, Swaine and Moore (#1 firm in the world)
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen U& Katz (#2 often in the ranknings of profits. First year out of law school = 200k!)
Sullivan and Cromwelll
Cleary, Gottleib
Skadden, Arps
Shearman Sterling...

and so on...


in Chicago:

Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Mawe
...and the rest are Branch offices of NY's best (and this is the case for the rest of the countries big cities)

Dealing with the scientific side is fine with me It's one of the reasons why I'm interested in it. The mixture of law, business, and engineering is interesting. I basically only want to go for patent law.

What about working for companies themselves? It seems like a lot of patent lawyers work in-house for companies.
 

DigDug

Guest
Mar 21, 2002
3,143
0
0
working in-house is VERY difficult to get out of lawschool straight. See the legal industry is based upon the big firms "training" a majority of the law school gradutes into actual lawyers. Only after a few years do the in-house positions become available:

(1) because, like I said, such compnies can afford to "train" a new graduate, and
(2) many of the in-house positions are filled by lawyers that come from the law firms that such companies retain. It a natural progresson. Say Company A retains Law Firm B as their outside counsel. After a few years of working with Law Firm B, Company A can afford to invite a lawyer from Law Firm B to join their ranks. This way, Company A has a guy who has experience with the lawyers at the firm the retain, Law Firm B, and Law Firm B has one of their own trained guys now at the firm. Its a win-win for everyone.
 

hahher

Senior member
Jan 23, 2004
295
0
0
so digdug, what's it take to get into top14 law school? mostly lsat? lsat+gpa? extra curriculars? letter of rec? how much do all those factor in?
 

Dragnov

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
6,878
0
0
Originally posted by: hahher
so digdug, what's it take to get into top14 law school? mostly lsat? lsat+gpa? extra curriculars? letter of rec? how much do all those factor in?

Yeah I'm curious about this too... digdug stated he had an undergrad GPA of 2.5. So how the heck did you get into a top tier law school?
 

white

Senior member
Nov 2, 2000
988
3
81
nice read. i expected a bunch of legal-speak and disclaimers.

how much would UG grades matter for admission if the applicant has a graduate degree? and by how much would it affect admissions into an IP program if the applicant has a graduate (MS, PhD) degree in an engineering field?
 

FreshCrabLegs

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2003
1,127
164
106
Hey there DigDug, you've burst my bubble.

I'm too drunk to axe coherent questions at the moment (atm), but you'b hurtz me peelings.

Whoa, be me. Whoa, be me.

Seriously thanks for the info.
 

CptObvious

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2004
2,501
7
81
<= finishing up 2L at UF

I have a different perspective than OP. Law isn't my passion, and truthfully the only reason I applied to law school was because I had a B.S. in psychology (which was worth exactly that). I agree about the whole med school/law school distinction, though. I was a pre-med in college until my junior year and I didn't even consider law school until my senior year. After it became obvious that I wasn't med school material (i.e., near perfect GPA, buttload of volunteer/research activity) I sort of took the LSAT on a whim. The LSAT IMHO is nothing compared to the MCAT - you can pretty much prepare by taking some practice exams and no outside studying. Also, the med school application process is much more demanding than law school...I was never personally interviewed at any law school I applied to.

I understand though that law schools around the country are tightening their admissions policies so maybe I lucked out. Also during our orientation the dean told us (in so many words) that all the weeding out is done in the admissions process, but last year they implemented a mandatory grading curve. Some professors still insist on giving 'easier' exams for the sake of easier grading, but when the class distribution is skewed right you have some problems. Everyone does well but for every A the professor gives he effectively must give 2 C+'s. Every semester there are exams I am certain I kick ass on but end up with B's and C+'s. Truthfully I hardly study for finals anymore (I have one in copyrights in a few hours and I am posting here) because I'd get the same grade with less effort. [/bitchmoan]

Anyway, I admire people like OP who bust ass and get the A's and work for firms in big cities. It takes big drive to do that and I'll readily admit I'm a little too immature and lazy (and frankly sick of school) to do that. I may practice law for a few years and move on to something else when the opportunity arises.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: Dragnov
Originally posted by: hahher
so digdug, what's it take to get into top14 law school? mostly lsat? lsat+gpa? extra curriculars? letter of rec? how much do all those factor in?

Yeah I'm curious about this too... digdug stated he had an undergrad GPA of 2.5. So how the heck did you get into a top tier law school?

He said he goes/went to a tier 2 law school and is/will be working for a top 10 law firm.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: white
nice read. i expected a bunch of legal-speak and disclaimers.

how much would UG grades matter for admission if the applicant has a graduate degree? and by how much would it affect admissions into an IP program if the applicant has a graduate (MS, PhD) degree in an engineering field?

Law Schools will look at Grad School grades, but they primarily focus on undergrad GPA and LSATs. Any grad degree, internship, volunteer work, and other extracircular activies certainly dont hurt your chances.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
When you apply to law schools, do you apply for any certain field?

I'm wondering since I've talked to patent lawyers and they say that your technical pedigree is just as important as your law school pedigree. Sometimes I wonder if what people normally say about law school and experiences afterwards apply to people wanting to go to patent law.
 

andylawcc

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
18,183
3
81
whao, I will forward this my friend who is like your unfortunate classmate. He will know what you're saying.
 

lizardboy

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2000
3,488
0
71
<--- 1L at a top-15 school. Finals start Thursday. My life is Hell. Everything, and I mean everything DigDug has written in this thread is true.
 

lizardboy

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2000
3,488
0
71
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
When you apply to law schools, do you apply for any certain field?
Nope, most schools will ask you if you know what you areas you're interested in, but everyone is admitted to the same program. At most schools your 1st year courses are set in stone - Contracts, Property, Civil Procedure, Torts, Criminal Law, Constitutional Law and some sort of Legal Research/Writing class.
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
16
81
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.
 

TurtleMan

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
1,424
0
76
Ohh thx DigDug nice inputs ;]
btw i luv ppl now doing the cliff notes thingy
but it should be put on the very top ;D
 

dr150

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2003
6,570
24
81
To All Potential Law Applicants:
Welcome to the real world. Most of you materialistic kids will realize that there is more to life than scoring entry into a high paying firm--IF you're able to squirm your way in.

Here's some truths:
1.) Most of what you learn in law school will be forgotten within a year. You will be retrained through the "practical" way of doing things when you enter the law firm.
2.) Say goodbye to daylight. You will be overworked to death. The best years of your life will be spent in a cube.
3.) Under enormous pressure, you will FUDGE your billable hours. Your guilt will dissipate, however, as you become a desensitized cog in this fraudulent wheel.
4.) The career ladder will be extremely frustrating as Associates will back-stab each other to get ahead on the Partner track that becomes smaller and smaller as each year's class gets whittled away. When one gets passed for Partner, most will leave to join middle to small firms earning a shadow of what you did at the bigger firm. You will hate yourself as you'll wonder why you worked so hard, why you stomped on your values and moral judgement to sell out to such a ridiculous corporate culture. Now you're older, most likely single or divorced and trying to redeem the best years of your life which you SOUL'D OUT to.
5.) Lets say you do make Partner? Well, your life just got TWICE as hard. Now you're repsonsible for revenue and your billing pressure is through the roof. You are now a TRUE slave of the firm. Many Partners have TERRIBLE health and are VERY UNHAPPY with their lives, despite thier income.

LESSON TO ALL THIS CRAP:
1.) Don't become a lawyer unless you're planning to do something honorable or interesting with it as most law fields is extremely BORING(i.e. the money won't be there).
2.) If you sell-out, you WILL suffer!
3.) DON'T listen to your parents or the media who CONSTANTLY BRAIN WASH you into thinking that unless you become a doctor, lawyer, banker, you have no redeeming qualities of achievement or success for your mother to brag about to her 5 st*pid friends over a game of penuckle.
4.) Think outside of the box. There are MANY fascinating careers outside of law, MBA, or MD. The reason so many apply to such programs is because the're EQUALLY as lost and don't know what to do but follow their parent's advice to please them and VALIDATE themselves in their eyes...........Out of all the multitude of friends that I've studied with at IVIES who went to the best graduate programs and sold out, I'd say a full 90%+ HATE their careers to the point that IF they could do it all over again, they'd definitely choose ANOTHER INTERESTING career--one that usually wouldn't involve MONEY as the deciding factor to pursue something......Almost all my friends who attended elite law schools are NOT practicing law within 5-8 years.....this should tell you something.
5.) Do something that will make you(not your parents, friends) HAPPY. Happiness in life is MORE IMPORTANT than anything else. A job is just a tool to balance out half your day--NOT to OVERRULE IT by making your existence miserable. We only have about 30 years of work life people--spend them WISELY.....spend them HAPPY!

God Bless.
 
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