Graduating Law School in 2 Weeks - Reflections

[DigDug]

I wish I had the time to respond to all oour questions. I promise I will, but after finals.

I do want to respond to the guy above. I see exactly what he's saying and that he is very correct when he says the dissatisfaction rate at these types of jobs and in the legal industry in general is very high. However, it is not AS bad as he says for two simple reasons:

(1) You can always leave. NOONE is keeping you there except your own greed. Unlike with most professions where the salary is set and people live their lives in some subconcious solace that "if they had more money they'd be happy". In the law, if you do well, you can make ALOT of money. The SKY is the limit, and for the first time, YOU are that glass ceiling. Because of this, we start to see the ugly side of human nature, where greed if left unchecked will cause the self-destruction of the greedy person. My friends (with BIGlaw jobs) already are spending like tycoons and haven't even yet started working. They know that they'll pay of the credit card debt in seconds flat. But the lifestyle gets addicting, and when some of these guys meet women who join them in holy matrimony because of their financial resources, a second person has just been added to the greed factor. When they realize they have a sh1tty life, horrible health and nothing but money to show for it, what can they do?

Its hard to take a multi-hundred thousand dollar paycut, but that ONLY because they are greedy. Me? I want to live well and wouldn't mind a $500k salary or even a $1million, but NOT at the expense of what it takes to make that in the legal industry. I will NOT work the way one has to, to get that - perhaps I feel fortunate in that I've had my "midlife" crisis when i was 24, and gained some perspective about life that many law students don't have. They think that they'll be able to have a successful marriage life seing their wife 1 hour a day, if that. That they'll be able to successfully raise kids that they never see. Not me. My wife, although I haven't found her yet, will be someone who would be happy with my if I dropped down to $60k a year, who would feel happy contributing to the family finances, and, in relation to another recent post of mine, DOESN'T have money as a "central figure" on her mind.

(2) While its easy to say that alot of these lawyers would do another career if they had the chance over again, isn't saying much. 90% of people in any career would say that, simply because they lack the insight in other careers, namely the negative insight, that they've gotten in their own. And to put it simply, doing something you love that really doesn't pay the bills and causes financial strain won't be something you love for long. And that being the case, would you rather work long hours and at least get paid for it, or work long hours for inadequate financial return?

Balance. It's hard to achieve in this career, but it CAN be done. At least, I believe so.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
My sister recently graduated from USD; she's taking the CA bar for the second time and is looking at working for a DA's office making $45k. Go figure. Her husband is working at a firm making probably $100k (though I don't know for sure), so maybe it balances out.

well that doesn't seem unreasonable for a public sector job

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: dr150
To All Potential Law Applicants:
Welcome to the real world. Most of you materialistic kids will realize that there is more to life than scoring entry into a high paying firm--IF you're able to squirm your way in.

Here's some truths:
1.) Most of what you learn in law school will be forgotten within a year. You will be retrained through the "practical" way of doing things when you enter the law firm.
2.) Say goodbye to daylight. You will be overworked to death. The best years of your life will be spent in a cube.
3.) Under enormous pressure, you will FUDGE your billable hours. Your guilt will dissipate, however, as you become a desensitized cog in this fraudulent wheel.
4.) The career ladder will be extremely frustrating as Associates will back-stab each other to get ahead on the Partner track that becomes smaller and smaller as each year's class gets whittled away. When one gets passed for Partner, most will leave to join middle to small firms earning a shadow of what you did at the bigger firm. You will hate yourself as you'll wonder why you worked so hard, why you stomped on your values and moral judgement to sell out to such a ridiculous corporate culture. Now you're older, most likely single or divorced and trying to redeem the best years of your life which you SOUL'D OUT to.
5.) Lets say you do make Partner? Well, your life just got TWICE as hard. Now you're repsonsible for revenue and your billing pressure is through the roof. You are now a TRUE slave of the firm. Many Partners have TERRIBLE health and are VERY UNHAPPY with their lives, despite thier income.

LESSON TO ALL THIS CRAP:
1.) Don't become a lawyer unless you're planning to do something honorable or interesting with it as most law fields is extremely BORING(i.e. the money won't be there).
2.) If you sell-out, you WILL suffer!
3.) DON'T listen to your parents or the media who CONSTANTLY BRAIN WASH you into thinking that unless you become a doctor, lawyer, banker, you have no redeeming qualities of achievement or success for your mother to brag about to her 5 st*pid friends over a game of penuckle.
4.) Think outside of the box. There are MANY fascinating careers outside of law, MBA, or MD. The reason so many apply to such programs is because the're EQUALLY as lost and don't know what to do but follow their parent's advice to please them and VALIDATE themselves in their eyes...........Out of all the multitude of friends that I've studied with at IVIES who went to the best graduate programs and sold out, I'd say a full 90%+ HATE their careers to the point that IF they could do it all over again, they'd definitely choose ANOTHER INTERESTING career--one that usually wouldn't involve MONEY as the deciding factor to pursue something......Almost all my friends who attended elite law schools are NOT practicing law within 5-8 years.....this should tell you something.
5.) Do something that will make you(not your parents, friends) HAPPY. Happiness in life is MORE IMPORTANT than anything else. A job is just a tool to balance out half your day--NOT to OVERRULE IT by making your existence miserable. We only have about 30 years of work life people--spend them WISELY.....spend them HAPPY!

God Bless.

Two words - solo practice. 50 hours a week feels like a vacation

 

[astroview]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

Not to mention 3 years of very expensive schools.

 

[Tango57]

thanks for the helpful cliff notes. Digdug i think that's good practical advice for pre-law students. i should probably write a synopsis on medical schools since i just graduated from one. i'll just add another correlation here if i may. as you mentioned, getting into medical school is more competitive than getting into law school and i would agree with you. however the opposite seems to be true after graduation. according to what you are saying about the difficulty of law school graduates finding jobs and how only a small percentage are able to; it would therefore seem that it is easier for medical school graduates to find jobs or get into residency training than for their law school counterparts. for medical school graduates, i forget the exact percentage, but some 95% of them go onto match successfully each year for residency training and although training is still a part of their formal education it is considered work experience as well since they do get paid. i don't know the statistics off hand on their employment rates beyond residency training but i can only surmise from what i've heard or read in the past that an equal percentage continue their work by going into group practice, private practice, research, education or what have you. one thing though that law and med school graduates have in common; $100,000-$150,000 in educational debt seems to be the avg. figure range for both graduates these days and if you're in it for the money, you'd best consider a different profession as times have changed a lot for both these professions.

 

[DigDug]

Tango57: I really think you should write a tell-all on medical school. There are enough ambitious people here, in fact much of ATOT is extremely intelligent and geared towards "professional" careers. [I put that in quotes because to call certain careers professional, by implication, demeans and belittles those that don't carry that label.]
From what I know about medical school, the real weeding process is in the admission to medical. That said, there is a constant evaluation for you guys, that doesn't exist in law. You have your boards after second year, I believe, then after your rotations, you have further exams, and then another set upon finishing residency, if I'm at all correct. And while you say there is a 95% matching of residency - which by the way is an incredibly smart way of doing the selection process, simply because it quashes the duplicate offers problem that plagues law schools - people still complete LIKE HELL for the most coveted specialties like Radiology and Dermatology which require the least work and the least time investment. So you can easily end up doing a specialty you don't even like, and one that robs you of your time. I'm not sure if you know, but the uniformity of medical education in this country was spurred on by a scathing critique in the '20s by this muckracker. I can't remember, but I think only one paper was written which lambasted the then state of affairs with medical schools and those damn thing was restructured.


hahher:

so digdug, what's it take to get into top14 law school? mostly lsat? lsat+gpa? extra curriculars? letter of rec? how much do all those factor in?

Truth be told, its all numbers. You are no longer in the education bracket where your specific "fit" with a school is enough to give you an edge over other applicants. When I applied to my undergrad, I had pretty damn good credentials (it wasn't until college that I lost my bearings and screwed around like noone's business) and even then, I think it was my artsy bent that got me in. In law school, you could be the next picasso with a 152 on your LSAT, and noone would give two sh1ts. As surprising as it is, these trade schools that stand as the barrier between people and the legal profession, care less about the people they admit than colleges do. It's sad but true.
To get into a top 14 school? These days - in the last 3 years, admissions has gotten crazy difficult since the economy killed itself and everyone blamed business and hence business schools, the other de facto breeding ground, hasn't been so coveted - it takes about a 168+, and a decent GPA, I'd say a 3.4, depending on where you went to school. I admit, I was helped by my alma mater's prestige - Vassar, for what its worth is well respected by the graduate and professional fields - but even then, I don't think it mattered much. If you can score above a 170+, pat yourself on the back regardless of your GPA and know that you'll be making six figures in 3 years. You can have a 2.5 and still make the top 14. Isn't it so screwed up, that one test can counter 4 years of educational evaluation? Noone told any of us this. As I said to someone in private messaging, if I knew what I did, I would have spent my WHOLE last year of college mastering the LSAT. Fvck grades. And the LSAT is masterable. I did pretty well myself on the LSATS, but if I had practiced more, I'd have easily beaten the 170 mark. Instead, I had to spend one extra year to prove my ability over the others in my class.

 

[CanOWorms]

You guys really make it sound horrible

What's your opinion on US News' statistics on employment & salary? Do you think it's exaggerated? It probably is, but is it THAT much so?

Do you think having an MS helps in the admissions process much?

 

[Babbles]

This has been a fascinating read, thank you!!!

I am one of those individuals thinking about law school. I have been out of college for four years (would be five if I did get accepted into law school). I have worked five years of a bench chemist (uber fun) and getting into the IP field sounds rather interesting. For an entire whopping semester in school, I was a pre-law poli-sci major; however, that bored me to death so I got back into science.
The analytical science field is pretty screwed up, so I thought it I would do well to combine my love of science and my interest in law.

Anyhow, even after reading your tell-all story I am still interested in law school; so, we will see how it works out.
I still lack the LSAT, but it can't be all that hard.

 

[Macro2]

Law is the most hated profession there is, for good reason.

 

[m2kewl]

Originally posted by: Macro2
Law is the most hated profession there is, for good reason.

yeah, fvck lawyers. they can all burn in hell...i hate them with a passion!!!

 

[whiteboy81]

Thanks for sharing DigDug, very important insight...law school has been a dream of mine since I was young, but so far life has prevented it...still working on my bachelors degree.

I'll definetely consider your words if I ever get there.

 

[CrazyDe1]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

This isn't necessarily true. Contract engineers I know get about 170 a year. Some guy recently interviewed at my uncle's company and asked for 250k with 15 years experience. Senior engineers make 120-140k at this same company.

The way I see it, it all evens out because someone might be heavily in debt from law school and might make 90k a few years after where as the same engineer with 5 years experience can easily pull in 90k.

 

[CrazyDe1]

A few questions. How is University of Washington St Louis's law school? A friend of mine got 36k to go there.

Is it worth it to spend 1 year at a washington university law school, tear it up, then transfer to a cornell or a columbia? YOu mentioned something about getting hried after the first year.

I guess all this semi applies to him as he's trying to go into politics and he really enjoys law. As in, he gave up a very promising career doing something else to go to law school. I think he'd be perfectly happy getting a job at a lower tier firm just for experience and then get into his true passion...politics.

 

[DigDug]

Wash U is a great school. However, I don't know if its reputation carries far beyond that area.

One of my best friends went to Wash U, finished 3rd in his class, transferred to NYU and is graduating two weeks. He'll be working with me at my firm. I'm psyched!

 

[astroview]

All of the things mentioned in the OP are true. My friends at the top of the class do have jobs. Others don't. Most people not in the top who do have jobs upon graduation worked there during the school year and summers while going to school. So it is possible to get a job outside the biglaw route. Building up a network seems to be the key. And there is the possibility of government or nonprofit work as well.

I also have to agree with CptObvious's post. He and I are in the same boat it seems in that law school seemed like the right choice but it's not entirely our passion. There is a VERY annoying curve, but I find working harder does get me a better grade.

I'd like to reply to dr150's post as well.

There is also an enormous amount of pressure NOT to fudge your billable hours. Medium and smaller firms often have manageable hourly billing, making normal billable hours possible. It is a major ethics breach to "fudge" hours, and if you get caught there goes your career. Contrary to popular belief, most lawyers do care about ethics, since your reptutation and your law license are your meal ticket.

You probably will work in a cube (or office) for a large amount of time. This is similar to many white collar jobs though, so its not entirely a negative comparison. Most engineering, banking, consulting, accounting, or general business work is done in a cube. That is life now. If you want to be outside, choose another an appropriate career. I have many friends who work 50 hour work weeks, in other professional areas. If I'm working that much, I'd rather be doing it as a lawyer than another field.

It is also possible to work on balancing your life with your career. There is no rule you have to go the Biglaw-no life route. Going in-house is one option. Going in-house for a corporation is difficult early on in one's career. But if done later it can yield very sane/normal hours, and best of all no billing. Government also has no billing. [legal billing is really the MOST hated thing that lawyers do in the practice of law]

Many of dr150's comments were true, though the tone seemed negative. Remember that you have the option of living your life as you see fit when you're a lawyer, and you can still be a lawyer and enjoy life.

Also Some people are curious what is the best major? I was a history & political science. Did that help me really? I can't really say. As a liberal arts major I read a lot. I read a lot in law school. Therefore it probably helped somewhat because it built up my reading skills. But as a result of my major I feel uncomfortable in the money side of law, which is what a lot of the law is about. In some ways it's really a business degree. Liberal arts is an ok option. If i were to do things over I'd do finance and history as my major, with a mix of accounting classes to help me get a background for tax law purposes. Money is important for every part of the legal profession, criminal law even with the new emphasis on white collar crime.

Also law isn't a bad option if you're going for free, like several people I know. They are going b/c of scholarships and/or rich family. If you can graduate law school totally debt free, go for it.

Lastly, don't expect to get rich. It might happen, it could happen, but go to law school because it really interests you or else you'll probably dislike it. It's a competitive atmosphere that isn't that fun.

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

Not to mention 3 years of very expensive schools.

Ummm... going to a top engineering school is also very expensive (and is just as difficult as law school). As for liability, you're kidding yourselves if you think a lawyer is more liable than an engineer; engineers often build devices that could kill their user if it malfunctions (bridges, cars, planes, etc.). I think it might have more to do with tradition than anything else.

 

[bcterps]

Thanks for all the great info everyone. Gives me a lot to think about on whether being a lawyer is something that I'd want to do.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Macro2
Law is the most hated profession there is, for good reason.

Eat me.

 

[isasir]

Good read. My GF is a lawyer from a Tier 3 school making about $45k right now (she got sworn in this year), doing public interest work. She doesn't have interest in any of the major firms since she's not concerned about just making money, but rather, about helping people. Of course, her huge loans want her to do otherwise, so it will become an interesting dilemma.

Being a lawyer does carry some prestige with it, so while I currently make more money than she does, I'll get more of a reaction telling someone that she's a lawyer, as opposed to telling them that I do I.T. work.

 

[astroview]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

Not to mention 3 years of very expensive schools.

Ummm... going to a top engineering school is also very expensive (and is just as difficult as law school). As for liability, you're kidding yourselves if you think a lawyer is more liable than an engineer; engineers often build devices that could kill their user if it malfunctions (bridges, cars, planes, etc.). I think it might have more to do with tradition than anything else.

I never said top schools, did I? You can always go to a cheap state school and get an engineering degree. Lots of lawyers have 100k+ in loans, from the best to the worst law school. I do know some engineers that do have lots of loans, but overall it's a lot less common than lawyers with lots of debt. As for the difficulty I agree, it is similar. I went to a top engineering for undergrad and I saw how hard it was. But then again do engineers have a bar exam they need to study 2 months for?

Engineering malpractice suits are also relatively rare compared to medical or legal malpratice suits. It happens, but not as much. Just curious, do you or your engineering employer/friends carry malpractice insurance? FYI "engineering malpractice" popped up only 29 hits on lexis nexis searching every law review, CLE, and legal journal, one example its not that common.

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

I'm just an engineering student, but I don't think it's common practice for engineers to carry malpractice insurance. I'd say that's mainly because if an engineer screws up, it's the company that gets sued (which in turn fires the engineer/engineering team). In either case, even with malpractice insurance included in calculation that most lawyers make more than engineers. In any event, I don't want to get in an argument over this because a lawyer will definitely out-argue an engineer .

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
You guys really make it sound horrible

What's your opinion on US News' statistics on employment & salary? Do you think it's exaggerated? It probably is, but is it THAT much so?

Do you think having an MS helps in the admissions process much?

Anyone want to comment on that ^^^ ?

 

[LS20]

i cant even fathom how and why one would have an interest in law aside from money. 1 friend i know who is into law was born into affluence and wealth (gotta keep up the pedigree), and the other is really materialistic.

im a geology senior...simple life for me, plz

great read by digdug others. thanks for the insight

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: CrazyDe1
A few questions. How is University of Washington St Louis's law school? A friend of mine got 36k to go there.

Is it worth it to spend 1 year at a washington university law school, tear it up, then transfer to a cornell or a columbia? YOu mentioned something about getting hried after the first year.

I guess all this semi applies to him as he's trying to go into politics and he really enjoys law. As in, he gave up a very promising career doing something else to go to law school. I think he'd be perfectly happy getting a job at a lower tier firm just for experience and then get into his true passion...politics.

I think you may be a little overconfident in your friend's abilities... law school is not as easy to "tear up" as you may think it is. - It does not matter how smart someone is. Law school is just different. It teaches smart people how to think in a certain way. It even teaches idiots to think in a different way.

Don't go to law school to transfer. Transfers are relatively rare. Pick one that you would be contect with for 3 years.