Graduating Law School in 2 Weeks - Reflections

[axelfox]

Will you hire me when you open up your own shop Digdug?

Finishing my 2nd year. I wish someone told me that it was not smart to join a journal and work and go to school at the same time.

This is a great post. One thing that I wish I had done before I went to law school was done more research about law schools. Now I'm in too deep.

 

[Greg03]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
Thanks for the words of advice. My GPA/LSAT (3.37 GPA, 165 LSAT) combo is currently good enough to get me into most top tiers except the top 20 (the rest of the top tiers are ~40-60% + chance of admission); mosf of the top 20 place me somewhere between 10-50% chance. I'm hoping by staying to get a second degree (hopefully in accounting) and then getting a masters in accounting I can greatly increase my chances of a top 20. Might retake the LSAT and try to get a 173+.

Cheers!
Nate

In your best interest, and from one who feels your pain, that is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard. I have an MA and just graduated lawshool last year. Get in and GET OUT!

Life is sort and your career is even shorter. The difference between your current accessible school and those you MIGHT get in to is not worth the difference. Besides, bad economy = better students when you apply = harder decision grid to face. GET IN, do your time and GET OUT.

 

[Greg03]

CLIFFNOTES:
1. I am writing to dispel notions that lawschool is a ticket to riches.
2. To be clear, I have an excellent job, so I'm not ranting because I feel I've been fvcked by law school.
3. Law school hiring is very much limited to the top schools.
4. If you are thinking that law school will provide a ticket to wealth and security, think again.

ADD:
Attrition rates at the "killer" jobs can be high as 30% for the first year in a good economy and 50% in a great economy.

For those that DO get the killer jobs, the $125+ jobs, the romance you dreamed of in law school: sleeping at the firm, free steak dinners, the noble torture of typing and doing research till 3am, will make some quit and pursue the dreaded "quality of life jobs". Unfortunately, few are REALLY cut out for the BIG time. I have seen more than my share of friends with plasma TVs (from their first checks) find this out within about 3-6 months of their BIG jobs. Where am I? A semi-quality of life job with adequate pay. Its not a bad compromise, and I have a social ife and family. I will likely *never* work 60 hours/wk again .

 

[Greg03]

Law school hopefuls --- don't get TOO depressed re: this thread.

I know LOTS of doctors/dentists/psychiatrists/UPS drivers (only 2)/MBAs who say there career makes them want to vomit. The UPS drivers hate the happy-go-lucky BROWN commercials that don't show there long (9-12hour) days and needed caffeine intake. The doctors, well watch ER. Anyhoo, few are taken by the field they choose. THe grass is always greener...

 

[Greg03]

Originally posted by: shady06
20 out of 22 law schools i will be applying to in the fall are well known tier 1 school

For the love of GOD narrow that down.

 

[astroview]

Originally posted by: Greg03

Originally posted by: Orsorum
Thanks for the words of advice. My GPA/LSAT (3.37 GPA, 165 LSAT) combo is currently good enough to get me into most top tiers except the top 20 (the rest of the top tiers are ~40-60% + chance of admission); mosf of the top 20 place me somewhere between 10-50% chance. I'm hoping by staying to get a second degree (hopefully in accounting) and then getting a masters in accounting I can greatly increase my chances of a top 20. Might retake the LSAT and try to get a 173+.

Cheers!
Nate

In your best interest, and from one who feels your pain, that is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard. I have an MA and just graduated lawshool last year. Get in and GET OUT!

Life is sort and your career is even shorter. The difference between your current accessible school and those you MIGHT get in to is not worth the difference. Besides, bad economy = better students when you apply = harder decision grid to face. GET IN, do your time and GET OUT.

I gotta say I agree that you don't need all that school, but it's your decision. The cpa is nice, it does take 150 credit hours usually so the MA to get it is prob worth it. But the added expense might not be worth it. Try not to spend more than 8 years in school though, 4 undergrad, 4 grad. B/c grad school isn't as fun.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Greg03

Originally posted by: Orsorum
Thanks for the words of advice. My GPA/LSAT (3.37 GPA, 165 LSAT) combo is currently good enough to get me into most top tiers except the top 20 (the rest of the top tiers are ~40-60% + chance of admission); mosf of the top 20 place me somewhere between 10-50% chance. I'm hoping by staying to get a second degree (hopefully in accounting) and then getting a masters in accounting I can greatly increase my chances of a top 20. Might retake the LSAT and try to get a 173+.

Cheers!
Nate

In your best interest, and from one who feels your pain, that is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard. I have an MA and just graduated lawshool last year. Get in and GET OUT!

Life is sort and your career is even shorter. The difference between your current accessible school and those you MIGHT get in to is not worth the difference. Besides, bad economy = better students when you apply = harder decision grid to face. GET IN, do your time and GET OUT.

Well, finally some real feedback.

 

[Maetryx]

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

Not to mention 3 years of very expensive schools.

Ummm... going to a top engineering school is also very expensive (and is just as difficult as law school). As for liability, you're kidding yourselves if you think a lawyer is more liable than an engineer; engineers often build devices that could kill their user if it malfunctions (bridges, cars, planes, etc.). I think it might have more to do with tradition than anything else.

I never said top schools, did I? You can always go to a cheap state school and get an engineering degree. Lots of lawyers have 100k+ in loans, from the best to the worst law school. I do know some engineers that do have lots of loans, but overall it's a lot less common than lawyers with lots of debt. As for the difficulty I agree, it is similar. I went to a top engineering for undergrad and I saw how hard it was. But then again do engineers have a bar exam they need to study 2 months for?

Engineering malpractice suits are also relatively rare compared to medical or legal malpratice suits. It happens, but not as much. Just curious, do you or your engineering employer/friends carry malpractice insurance? FYI "engineering malpractice" popped up only 29 hits on lexis nexis searching every law review, CLE, and legal journal, one example its not that common.

1) Yes, we do have a "bar" exam. It's called the PE Exam or Professional Engineers exam. It is desinged by the NCEES, is held twice a year, and is an 8 hour exam. For a civil engineer, the first 4 hours is general civil engineering, and the second 4 hours is selected from 5 disciplines: water resources, environmental, traffic, structural, geotechnical. And you have to have 4 years of qualifying experience on top of your 4 year engineering degree before you can take this test. 40% of test takers fail it. Also you have to hold the FE certificate which you get by taking a test at the end of your bachelor's degree. So we have TWO "bar" exams for engineers.

2) Professional Engineers in practice often have professional liability insurance, as do Professional Land Surveyors. Do a search on "professional liability insurance" term instead of malpractice, which isn't a term I've heard related to engineering. This link for example.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Maetryx

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

Not to mention 3 years of very expensive schools.

Ummm... going to a top engineering school is also very expensive (and is just as difficult as law school). As for liability, you're kidding yourselves if you think a lawyer is more liable than an engineer; engineers often build devices that could kill their user if it malfunctions (bridges, cars, planes, etc.). I think it might have more to do with tradition than anything else.

I never said top schools, did I? You can always go to a cheap state school and get an engineering degree. Lots of lawyers have 100k+ in loans, from the best to the worst law school. I do know some engineers that do have lots of loans, but overall it's a lot less common than lawyers with lots of debt. As for the difficulty I agree, it is similar. I went to a top engineering for undergrad and I saw how hard it was. But then again do engineers have a bar exam they need to study 2 months for?

Engineering malpractice suits are also relatively rare compared to medical or legal malpratice suits. It happens, but not as much. Just curious, do you or your engineering employer/friends carry malpractice insurance? FYI "engineering malpractice" popped up only 29 hits on lexis nexis searching every law review, CLE, and legal journal, one example its not that common.

1) Yes, we do have a "bar" exam. It's called the PE Exam or Professional Engineers exam. It is desinged by the NCEES, is held twice a year, and is an 8 hour exam. For a civil engineer, the first 4 hours is general civil engineering, and the second 4 hours is selected from 5 disciplines: water resources, environmental, traffic, structural, geotechnical. And you have to have 4 years of qualifying experience on top of your 4 year engineering degree before you can take this test. 40% of test takers fail it. Also you have to hold the FE certificate which you get by taking a test at the end of your bachelor's degree. So we have TWO "bar" exams for engineers.

2) Professional Engineers in practice often have professional liability insurance, as do Professional Land Surveyors. Do a search on "professional liability insurance" term instead of malpractice, which isn't a term I've heard related to engineering. This link for example.

This doesn't really apply to 95% of all engineers. The same couldn't be said of lawyers.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

Not to mention 3 years of very expensive schools.

Ummm... going to a top engineering school is also very expensive (and is just as difficult as law school). As for liability, you're kidding yourselves if you think a lawyer is more liable than an engineer; engineers often build devices that could kill their user if it malfunctions (bridges, cars, planes, etc.). I think it might have more to do with tradition than anything else.

You must also keep in mind that a law degree is an advanced degree, as in beyond a bachelor's degree. You are thinking it is expensive to pay for college to get your engineering degree (probably not too terribly more than any other degree at the same college, just more expensive textbooks and lab fees), however you are looking at another $100k+ for law school.
It doesn't take a lot of thinking to realize that by and large an advance degree pays more than a bachelor's degree.
Even myself being an underpaid science professional I find it lame to pull the it's-not-fair-that-another-job-gets-paid-more-than-me card.

 

[BruinEd03]

My thoughts so far (As a 1L at UIUC):

Doctors v. Lawyers: There are just as many corrupt doctors as lawyers out there. Think about the last time you went to visit a doctor, how much did they charge you or your medical carrier? Yet, doctors get the good rep and the lawyers get the bad rep. Are there just more morally corrupt people out there? Hardly. The legal system is an adversarial system. In any conflict there's a winner and a loser. Inherently one side will feel like they've lost and feel indignant about it towards the other side and his/her lawyer. In a medical world, if something goes wrong, who do you blame? God or some other higher power. Very rarely do you blame the doctor for "losing". Do I think doctors are good people? Absolutely. Do I think the same about lawyers? Absolutely.

Lawyer Rep in General: It's funny how most people have a negative connotation of lawyers, yet at the first sign of trouble they spout "I want my lawyer!" or "I'm going to talk to my lawyer!" I believe most people like their lawyer, but hate the other side's lawyer. Conversely, the other side will feel the same. Sure there are bad apples, but so does every profession. You don't hear many stories on the news of lawyers doing pro bono work simply because it's boring. You only hear the bad. You don't like the law, talk to the politicians, not the lawyers. Lawyers don't enact the law.

My Goals for My Legal Career: I'm a 1L right now and Big Firms used to be a huge allure but right now after I've done some research, big firms jobs just don't really interest me. I want to clerk for a judge first. Afterwards, I'd maybe work for a big firm for two or three years at the most, but only for the name and the mobility it would give me for my career. Then I would go to a mid-sized firm and eventually go in-house. Are the hours going to be long? sure, but then again I'm prepared to work at least 60 hours per week. Frankly, engineering has prepped me to be fine for the lifestyle (most of my students comiplain about the study hours and I was pretty used to it). Hey it's a rough life, I know, but I am getting compensated for doing something I like. Yes I like the law. Yes it's mundane at times, but I still find it interesting. That could make me the biggest dork in the world, but I really dont' care. I got out of engineering because I couldn't see myself doing it as a career. I can see myself doing law as a career.

Advice for potential law students: Outside of the Top 14, go to the best regional school in the area where you want to practice. In addition, don't ever go into a school thinking you can transfer. 90% of you won't be in the top 10%. Also if all you want is the $, look elsewhere. It just simply isn't worth it. If you like the law, like doing a lot of reading/writing, like long hours, like being a dork, then the law is the perfect profession for you. And for all you geeks who think you know the law already and will excel in law school, think again. Law school is a WHOLE new ball game. Same goes with those who have high gpa's/lsat. I've seen people with low gpa's and/or low lsat's do well in law school and people with high gpa's and/or high lsat's do poorly in law school. Finally, law school is extremely tough, but not impossible to survive. In fact, I think almost anyone can survive it, depending on your dedication.

-Ed

 

[slycat]

this thread is like sobering and depressing at the same time, just like crack.

 

[BruinEd03]

Originally posted by: slycat
this thread is like sobering and depressing at the same time, just like crack.

Well half the time we're fending for our honor (yes we have some!), the other time, we're letting you guys know the reality of the situation. I mean there are a lot of benefits to being a lawyer and monetary compensation is only one of them. Knowing the law and the ability to translate it, itself, is extremely empowering. Then again, I'm a self-admittedly greater dork than most.

-Ed

 

[DigDug]

Lawyers don't enact the law.

Well, yes, they do. Lawyers make up much of the legislature. And even if you refer to practicing lawyers, they effectively do as well. Common law, is nothing but the product of tried cases - and as you've seen as a 1L, radical common law changes, do result in Legislative change:

The Massechusettes Supreme Court just punted over to the Legislature, what is effectively a DEMAND to legislate the legalization of marriage. Now, haven't those lawyers who tried what was obviously a test case (a case that is simply brought to test prevailing law for those who don't know), "enacted" law?

 

[astroview]

I love how everyone is arguing with us and how us legal types argue back.

 

[Greg03]

TO Orsorum:

I talked with some old professors who were on the admissions committee and advanced degrees (like mine -- ) meant next to NOTHING in their decision to admit me.

I get the sense you are heeding some advice, just know that you will never recoup the cash plunked down for grad school in law school admissions.

Note that if you think you'll do a LOT better on the LSATs, go for it, but also know that I stood a 50/50 chance of getting into my old law school in 2000 and got in. This year, because of the bad economy sending better qualified candidates to lawschools in droves, I would stand a mere 6% chance of getting in. That's 3 years. That difference is HUGE.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Greg03
TO Orsorum:

I talked with some old professors who were on the admissions committee and advanced degrees (like mine -- ) meant next to NOTHING in their decision to admit me.

I get the sense you are heeding some advice, just know that you will never recoup the cash plunked down for grad school in law school admissions.

Note that if you think you'll do a LOT better on the LSATs, go for it, but also know that I stood a 50/50 chance of getting into my old law school in 2000 and got in. This year, because of the bad economy sending better qualified candidates to lawschools in droves, I would stand a mere 6% chance of getting in. That's 3 years. That difference is HUGE.

I've decided to drop the MPAcc, on your advice and others' ; I don't need it to get my CPA license and, though it might look okay on a resume, I figure a year of work experience or a year head start on law school is a better use of my time. Plus, I could use that extra $13,000.

As for the LSAT... it's 50/50. I didn't study at all the first time around, and if I did it in June I'm sure I'll do at least a little bit better; I'd buy one of those "10 Real LSAT Tests" books, and set aside time each Saturday up to right after finals (week before the June LSAT), then try and force myself to do it once or twice each day, then take the day before the LSAT off. Whether I'd actually have the discipline to do this, however, is another matter.

And, yes, with the economy the way it is the competition is intense; another reason I'm thinking of just going and working for a few years until things pick back up. I know that the economy is on a mild upswing lately, but whether it means something probably won't be known for a year or so. If I were lucky everything would pick back up and admissions would decrease substantially by October; I'm not so sure that I want to bank on that, though.

Oy.

Cheers!
Nate

 

[astroview]

One annoying thing about the LSAT is, most schools average your scores they don't take the highest score that you got on it. Big incentive to do well on it the first time.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Maetryx

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: astroview

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Sort of related to the thread, but why are lawyers paid so much better than engineers? Not a sarcastic comment, I'm genuinely curious.

Tremendous liability.

Not to mention 3 years of very expensive schools.

Ummm... going to a top engineering school is also very expensive (and is just as difficult as law school). As for liability, you're kidding yourselves if you think a lawyer is more liable than an engineer; engineers often build devices that could kill their user if it malfunctions (bridges, cars, planes, etc.). I think it might have more to do with tradition than anything else.

I never said top schools, did I? You can always go to a cheap state school and get an engineering degree. Lots of lawyers have 100k+ in loans, from the best to the worst law school. I do know some engineers that do have lots of loans, but overall it's a lot less common than lawyers with lots of debt. As for the difficulty I agree, it is similar. I went to a top engineering for undergrad and I saw how hard it was. But then again do engineers have a bar exam they need to study 2 months for?

Engineering malpractice suits are also relatively rare compared to medical or legal malpratice suits. It happens, but not as much. Just curious, do you or your engineering employer/friends carry malpractice insurance? FYI "engineering malpractice" popped up only 29 hits on lexis nexis searching every law review, CLE, and legal journal, one example its not that common.

1) Yes, we do have a "bar" exam. It's called the PE Exam or Professional Engineers exam. It is desinged by the NCEES, is held twice a year, and is an 8 hour exam. For a civil engineer, the first 4 hours is general civil engineering, and the second 4 hours is selected from 5 disciplines: water resources, environmental, traffic, structural, geotechnical. And you have to have 4 years of qualifying experience on top of your 4 year engineering degree before you can take this test. 40% of test takers fail it. Also you have to hold the FE certificate which you get by taking a test at the end of your bachelor's degree. So we have TWO "bar" exams for engineers.

2) Professional Engineers in practice often have professional liability insurance, as do Professional Land Surveyors. Do a search on "professional liability insurance" term instead of malpractice, which isn't a term I've heard related to engineering. This link for example.

This doesn't really apply to 95% of all engineers. The same couldn't be said of lawyers.

It applys to almost any engineer working as a govt employee. Though you are correct, it doesnt apply to all. Texas recently allowed non certified engineers the right to use the title of engineer. Engineer was/is a professional and licensed title.

IIRC patent lawyers have to pass both the PE Exam and thePatent Bar. The Patent Bar is a bitch from what I have heard. And like the other guy said, the PE Exam isnt all that easy.

 

[pcmodem]

Thanks DigDug.


This has been one of the most informative threads I've ever read.



Cheers, :beer:
PCM

 

[AmericasTeam]

First off, I'm responding without reading any post but the first and I only read the cliff notes.

My brother is also graduating in a couple of weeks. May 22nd to be exact. He already has a job with a law firm in San Jose, CA and makes decent money now. After he passes the bar in August (I sure hope he does) he will make a minimum 100k. That might not be a lot to some, but its a good start.

He has already represented himself in a case against the University of Colorado and the University settled. You can see info here.


It was said "If you are thinking that law school will provide a ticket to wealth and security, think again"
That is very misleading. There are no real guarantees in life, but you get what you put in. My brother is a single parent and has been the entire time he has been in school. He has worked his ass off and getting what he worked for, a good job for good pay.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: AmericasTeam
First off, I'm responding without reading any post but the first and I only read the cliff notes.

My brother is also graduating in a couple of weeks. May 22nd to be exact. He already has a job with a law firm in San Jose, CA and makes decent money now. After he passes the bar in August (I sure hope he does) he will make a minimum 100k. That might not be a lot to some, but its a good start.

He has already represented himself in a case against the University of Colorado and the University settled. You can see info here.


It was said "If you are thinking that law school will provide a ticket to wealth and security, think again"
That is very misleading. There are no real guarantees in life, but you get what you put in. My brother is a single parent and has been the entire time he has been in school. He has worked his ass off and getting what he worked for, a good job for good pay.

The CA bar's a bear to take, my sister and brother in law both failed last July, hopefully they passed this February.

 

[Greg03]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Greg03
TO Orsorum:

I talked with some old professors who were on the admissions committee and advanced degrees (like mine -- ) meant next to NOTHING in their decision to admit me.

I get the sense you are heeding some advice, just know that you will never recoup the cash plunked down for grad school in law school admissions.

Note that if you think you'll do a LOT better on the LSATs, go for it, but also know that I stood a 50/50 chance of getting into my old law school in 2000 and got in. This year, because of the bad economy sending better qualified candidates to lawschools in droves, I would stand a mere 6% chance of getting in. That's 3 years. That difference is HUGE.

As for the LSAT... it's 50/50. I didn't study at all the first time around, and if I did it in June I'm sure I'll do at least a little bit better; I'd buy one of those "10 Real LSAT Tests" books, and set aside time each Saturday up to right after finals (week before the June LSAT), then try and force myself to do it once or twice each day, then take the day before the LSAT off. Whether I'd actually have the discipline to do this, however, is another matter.

And, yes, with the economy the way it is the competition is intense; another reason I'm thinking of just going and working for a few years until things pick back up. I know that the economy is on a mild upswing lately, but whether it means something probably won't be known for a year or so. If I were lucky everything would pick back up and admissions would decrease substantially by October; I'm not so sure that I want to bank on that, though.

Coupla things:

1. In the history of the universe, Law school entrance requirements only go up. The idea that you can take a few years off and not go in, with the expectation that they might drop might be more optomistic than practical. I have seen entrance requirments for the top 30 school in graph form for the last 25 years and with only an occasional (and I mean OCCASIONAL) blip, they go upward. Bad economies send them higher faster because people escape the bad economy in law school. If you take too much time off and then don't do as well as expected on the LSATs, then you're going to really pissed.

2. If you haven't done so, plunk the $1,000 down for the LSAT Kaplan course. It was worth every penny. Its better than asking yourself after the test how much money you would spend for even a single point. I gained a solid 5 points on my LSAT, the difference for me between having a 50% chance and a nearly 0% of getting into my school. AT your high level, I would say that *not* taking the Kaplan is per se malpractice.

Either way you have the keys to the kingdom in that 165--check out Fordham law, for example. You would be around halfway in their current crop and that pretty much guarantees you a 6 figure job (really 125k at a big firm. Not too shabby. Good luck!

 

[DigDug]

That is very misleading. There are no real guarantees in life, but you get what you put in. My brother is a single parent and has been the entire time he has been in school. He has worked his ass off and getting what he worked for, a good job for good pay

THIS is very misleading. Your brother's performance is commendable, however, you population sample for your conclusion consists of just one person! There are MANY people who work their assess off, don't make the top 10% cut and are effectively screwed. Law school ISN'T a sure bet - predictions of success based on LSAT and UGPA (in comparison to one's peers at a particular school) are useless. The truth is, you just don't know if your good at it, until you do it. Combine that with the inaccuracy/uncertainty built in to the subjective grading system, and its most definitely, NOT a guarantee.

In sum, everyone at the top of the class busted their ass for sure, but that does NOT mean that everyone else didn't.

 

[DigDug]

You would be around halfway in their current crop and that pretty much guarantees you a 6 figure job (really 125k at a big firm. Not too shabby. Good luck!

Not true. Only the top 25% of this year's class at Fordham got the BIGlaw invite.