Grammar dorks: Riddle me this!

[VengefulActs]

I've got a super hot, non-native Engrish speaker sitting here studying for her GMAT while I'm translating her application essay questions into proper Engrish. She starts asking me why and when we use "that" in the context of: Most IRS representative find that people are initially willing to cooperate.

Why do we need the word "that" in the sentence? Why is this not correct: Most IRS representative find people are initially willing to cooperate.


I had high school grammar, and I never looked back. I read a lot, so I'm mostly knowing what's right based on experience and not based on formal grammar rules. I did figure out this little pattern, though...

All of these are okay:
I fear bats.
I fear bats flying.
I fear bats flying up my nose.

In these cases, though, you need to use the word "that":
I fear that bats will fly up my nose.
I fear that a bat is flying up my nose.
I fear that bats are flying up my nose.

It seems that the word "is", "are" and "will" are forcing the use of the word "that". Is this right??

 

[thirdeye]

I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure your examples are correct with or without the word "that".

 

[VengefulActs]

Originally posted by: thirdeye
I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure your examples are correct with or without the word "that".

Yeah, as I read them over and over again I become convinced of the same thing...

The IRS thing comes out of Kaplan's book, though, and they say that "that" has to be used.

 

[pyonir]

Shouldn't representative be plural?

 

[VengefulActs]

Originally posted by: pyonir
Shouldn't representative be plural?

Yeah, taht's my typo... kind of like when I just typed "taht's" when I meant "that's".

 

[aCynic2]

Similar to 'to,' relating to relativism.

All your sentence examples show a superfluous use of 'that.'

"That is a cat." A declarative and more proper.

"I'm undecided whether to get this 2.40Ghz Conroe or that 2.66Ghz Conroe."

I study English at my U and while you may think I'm a dork, I feel people who can't spell or use reasonable grammar are retards.

 

[Legendary]

Originally posted by: VengefulActs
I've got a super hot, non-native Engrish speaker sitting here studying for her GMAT while I'm translating her application essay questions into proper Engrish. She starts asking me why and when we use "that" in the context of: Most IRS representative find that people are initially willing to cooperate.

Why do we need the word "that" in the sentence? Why is this not correct: Most IRS representative find people are initially willing to cooperate.


I had high school grammar, and I never looked back. I read a lot, so I'm mostly knowing what's right based on experience and not based on formal grammar rules. I did figure out this little pattern, though...

All of these are okay:
I fear bats.
I fear bats flying.
I fear bats flying up my nose.

In these cases, though, you need to use the word "that":
I fear that bats will fly up my nose.
I fear that a bat is flying up my nose.
I fear that bats are flying up my nose.

It seems that the word "is", "are" and "will" are forcing the use of the word "that". Is this right??

In all those cases, "that" is needed as a conjunction between the principal verb "find/fear" to the second subordinate clause and its verb "people are willing to cooperate/bats will fly up my nose (and all variants)."

Definition 13:

?conjunction
13. (used to introduce a subordinate clause as the subject or object of the principal verb or as the necessary complement to a statement made, or a clause expressing cause or reason, purpose or aim, result or consequence, etc.): I'm sure that you'll like it. That he will come is certain. Hold it up so that everyone can see it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=that

Edit: Without "that" the IRS sentence is only one clause "Most IRS representatives find people--" (can't have more than one clause without a conjunction)

Also, you can change the sentence to "Most IRS representatives find people that are willing to cooperate." In this case, "that are willing to cooperate" is an adjective and allowable. But without "that" it's just dangling.

 

[QurazyQuisp]

From what I was taught, in sentences like the one you have, you are supposed to avoid using "that" at all costs. I can't remember the exact reason why. Look at some papers people write sometime, "that" is a way overused word.

 

[thehstrybean]

Originally posted by: VengefulActs
I've got a super hot, non-native Engrish speaker sitting here studying for her GMAT

Since you have 23 posts, ATOT will go easy and keep the ban out, but :camera:s, ASAP!!

 

[MisterJackson]

Originally posted by: thehstrybean

Originally posted by: VengefulActs
I've got a super hot, non-native Engrish speaker sitting here studying for her GMAT

Since you have 23 posts, ATOT will go easy and keep the ban out, but :camera:s, ASAP!!

Yeah, this is as far as I got in the post....

I feel a nomination for BAN coming on though!