Granite Bay

[Fant]

Sorry I did not realize the Granite Bay didnt have adjustable cpu/mem dividers...

Here is a vendor selling it and it lists Adjustable FSB/DDR ratio. Fixed AGP/PCI frequencies.

 

[senior guy]

Originally posted by: oldfart

Well now, that all depends on whether or not your P4 can hit 166MHz FSB. My 2.4B (C1) easily can!

No, it doesn't matter. A P4 needs 8 x FSB speed mem BW. 133 FSB P4 needs 4.2 GB/sec BW for maximum performance. A Granite Bay with a 1:1 ratio DDR266 provides this. 166 FSB P4 needs 5.3 GB/sec BW....

So how does that refute IntelConvert's comment?

 

[oldfart]

Who says Granite Bay has no dividers? It depends on the manufacturer

Intel.
The ASUS P4G8X has no mem ratios. 1:1 only.

So how does that refute IntelConvert's comment?

Very simply. If your CPU can overclock to 166 FSB, the Granite bay still satisfies bandwidth requirements with a 1:1 ratio.

 

[Aldaris2002]

LOL! Don't worry oldfart you ARE making sense. I guess it's just a difficult concept to grasp. I'll try my best to make it simpler.

The only thing I can really say is that with Dual Channel DDR on the Granite Bay, there is no such thing as Asynchronous as the FSB and the DDR speed are directly related together. Thus, if you increase one, automatically, the other will increase at the same rate. (i.e. if you increase the speed of your ram from DDR266 to DDR333, which is a 1.25x increase, the FSB will also increase by 1.25x, thus giving you a FSB of 166Mhz (Quad pumped becomes 667Mhz with a total memory bandwith of 5.3GB/s). Thus this is a 1:1 Ration! NO multipliers are required with Dual Channel DDR! It's always 1:1!

When I look at the benchmarks you linked, I don't see a Dual Channel DDR333 system in any of the graphs. The ABIT iT7, Iwill P4HT-S and Epox 4SDA5+ motherboards (which are the ones showing DDR333 & DDR354) are all based on the 845PE chipset and thus ARE NOT Dual Channel DDR boards. They are Single Channel DDR boards and you can see that they lag behind both the Rambus 1066 system at the Dual Channel DDR266 system as expected with their decreased memory bandwidths. This is the part where I may mumble through some of my words... Single Channel DDR systems are Asynchronous because lets say you bought a P4 with a 533Mhz FSB, but only DDR266 RAM. They allow the FSB and DDR to be asynchronous so you can overclock your RAM to get a little more memory bandwidth out of em, without overclocking your processor and making the FSB even larger. And since, the FSB and DDR are not in perfect sync, you thus need a ratio...

I hope I've made things a little clearer and not said anything incorrect, if i have, please correct me
Aldaris

 

[senior guy]

Originally posted by: oldfart
[

So how does that refute IntelConvert's comment?

Very simply. If your CPU can overclock to 166 FSB, the Granite bay still satisfies bandwidth requirements with a 1:1 ratio.

OF, perhaps I'm having a senior moment, but the way I see it, an FSB of 166Mhz or 667Mhz quad pumped => a memory bandwith of 5.3GB/s... 5.3GB/s is greater than 4.2GB/s, isn't it? And I believe that was IntelConvert's point...

 

[oldfart]

OF, perhaps I'm having a senior moment, but the way I see it, an FSB of 166Mhz or 667Mhz quad pumped => a memory bandwith of 5.3GB/s... 5.3GB/s is greater than 4.2GB/s, isn't it?

Yes it is. Granite Bay provides 4.2 GB/Sec @133 FSB. At 166 FSB, Granite Bay provides 5.3 GB/Sec. As the FSB goes up, mem speed and BW goes up with it. 4.2 GB/Sec is not a fixed value.

FSB x 4 x 8 = available mem BW
133 x 4 x 8 = 4.2 GB/sec
166 x 4 x 8 = 5.3 GB/sec

How much BW does a P4 need?
FSB x 4 x 8 = BW needed for max performance

This is how it works. BW requirement goes up as FSB goes up. Available BW goes up as FSB is increased. This is why no mem ratio is needed with a DC DDR design..

 

[senior guy]

Originally posted by: oldfart

OF, perhaps I'm having a senior moment, but the way I see it, an FSB of 166Mhz or 667Mhz quad pumped => a memory bandwith of 5.3GB/s... 5.3GB/s is greater than 4.2GB/s, isn't it?

Yes it is. Granite Bay provides 4.2 GB/Sec @133 FSB. At 166 FSB, Granite Bay provides 5.3 GB/Sec. As the FSB goes up, mem speed and BW goes up with it. 4.2 GB/Sec is not a fixed value.

FSB x 4 x 8 = available mem BW
133 x 4 x 8 = 4.2 GB/sec
166 x 4 x 8 = 5.3 GB/sec

How much BW does a P4 need?
FSB x 4 x 8 = BW needed for max performance

This is how it works. BW requirement goes up as FSB goes up. Available BW goes up as FSB is increased. This is why no mem ratio is needed with a DC DDR design..

Exactly, so bear with me a little longer.... IntelConvert never addressed any other multiplier than 1:1, so I construed IntelConvert's remark to simply imply that if your P4 can hit 166MHz FSB (as his can), then with DDR333 that would raise GB's effective bandwidth to 5.3MHz, which is certainly better than running with DDR266 and a P4 at 133MHz FSB! As I see it, that was his entire point, nothing more, nothing less. With that said, should I make a reservation at the old folks home now?

 

[oldfart]

I'll see you there Gramps! We'll toss back a couple of Geritols!

 

[IntelConvert]

senior guy I just got back from a business trip to see that you've been in my corner. Thanks for that, and you have me pegged correctly. I fail to see how oldfart didn't understand my "Potentially greater bandwidth" remark was in response to his question "Better? In what way?". He then comes back with something like "Ah, the wasted BW that DDR333 will provide", to which I replied "that all depends on whether or not your P4 can hit 166MHz FSB. My 2.4B (C1) easily can!". I fail to understand his final come-back to me "it doesn't matter"!?!? What's in that Geritol anyway?

Well, I'm very tired and I'm going to crash, so I'll just wind this up by saying that when I get my new P4G8X, in goes 2 sticks of 512MB Corsair XMS PC2700 along with my 2.4B (cranking the FSB to 166MHz)and we shall see if it doesn't matter.

Good night...

 

[Fant]

Ok guys i was wrong and I misunderstood. I now see that Granite Bay has no multipler for FSBDR other than 1:1. That sux cause I'm already o/c'ing my P4 to 133FSB so chances of it hitting 166FSB are nil unless the multiplier can be changed. Bottom line is I'd like to run my P4 at 2.4ghz and FSB and DDR at 166 but I'm not sure if that will be possible with the 18x multiplier on my p4 1.8a chip. Thanks for clearing this up. Guess we'll have to wait to see what SiS is cooking up with Dual DDR.

 

[oldfart]

IntelConvert, I'm still not clear what your points are.

senior guy I just got back from a business trip to see that you've been in my corner. Thanks for that, and you have me pegged correctly. I fail to see how oldfart didn't understand my "Potentially greater bandwidth" remark was in response to his question "Better? In what way?". He then comes back with something like "Ah, the wasted BW that DDR333 will provide", to which I replied ". My 2.4B (C1) easily can!". I fail to understand his final come-back to me "it doesn't matter"!?!? What's in that Geritol anyway?

You say the SiS 655 will have "potentially better BW" because of the 4:5 mem ratio.
I say it is wasted BW. I made it pretty clear in the following posts why that is. Do you think the 4:5 ratio is needed for a DC P4 rig? I (obviously) dont.

You then came back and said "that all depends on whether or not your P4 can hit 166MHz FSB"

Again, it does not matter. 4:5 ratio is a waste of BW @ 133 FSB, nothing changes @ 166 FSB. Still more BW than a P4 can use.

I fail to see where the confusion is. SiS 655 4:5 ratio is not needed @ 133, 166 or any FSB.

 

[First]

My SiS 655 benchmarks will only prove oldfart's comments btw.

 

[oldfart]

Fant

Ok guys i was wrong and I misunderstood. I now see that Granite Bay has no multipler for FSBDR other than 1:1. That sux cause I'm already o/c'ing my P4 to 133FSB so chances of it hitting 166FSB are nil unless the multiplier can be changed. Bottom line is I'd like to run my P4 at 2.4ghz and FSB and DDR at 166 but I'm not sure if that will be possible with the 18x multiplier on my p4 1.8a chip. Thanks for clearing this up. Guess we'll have to wait to see what SiS is cooking up with Dual DDR.

Remember, whatever your CPU overclock is, you will always get maximum mem BW from your rig with a GB board! That is the beauty of it. You dont NEED to run your DDR @ 166 on a Granite Bay when running 133 FSB.

Once again the math (sorry to post this again)

What a P4 needs for maximum memory performance:

FSB X 4 x 8

Your setup @ 133:

133 X 4 X 8 = 4.2 GB/Sec
The Granite Bay provides 4.2 GB/Sec @ 133 FSB. 100% of the required mem BW. Any more would be wasted BW.

Lets look at the same thing with an 845PE rig:
133 FSB 3:4 ratio = DDR354 = 2.8 GB/Sec. Even with the ratio, it has much lower mem BW.

Think of it this way. Since Granite Bay is Dual channel DDR, DDR266 x 2 = DDR532

 

[oldfart]

My SiS 655 benchmarks will only prove oldfart's comments btw.

Thanks Evan. It will be nice to just post a link to your review instead of trying to give a math lesson!

Looking forward to it.

 

[Toymaker]

Sandra scores for GA-8INXP at DDR266 or 1:1
8INXP

Sandra scores comparing the P4G8X at DDR266, 1:1 to other boards including the P4T533
P4G8X comparison

Anyone who's worked with Zeon and Rambus motherboards knows that DC controllers just don't scale logically. Especially with current code that's not optimized to take advantage of the technology. When most people see these Sandra scores, they instantly say "why pay the extra monetary penalty for a Granite Bay when i can get almost the same scores with an overclocked P4PE?" Well.....Sandra's code hasn't been updated yet to take advantage of Granite Bay's DC DDR performance capabilities yet. And besides, Granite Bay is getting these scores "un-overclocked" at DDR 266. DC DDR is simply much faster than SC DDR. And most of the current benchmarks won't even come close to maxing out it's bandwidth potential.

 

[ShoNuff]

More mem benchmarks here. Scroll down to the botom third of the page. These numbers are impressive. The system also appears to be running at stock (2.26 GHz, 133 FSB) speeds.

It is getting harder and harder to wait for this board.

edit: fixed link

 

[Kowan]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
My SiS 655 benchmarks will only prove oldfart's comments btw.

oldfart
Great job on explaining BW. As someone else stated, many will pass on the GB not understanding what it actually offers.

 

[oldfart]

Its a shame. Its like ATA133 and AGP 8X. Like the SiS 655 DC DDR333, they have no measurable performance gain, but there are people who wont buy a board unless it has it. They just look at the bigger number and assume it is better without looking at the facts.

 

[poldi1]

Well Gigabyte told me that their GB Mobo should be available around Xmas, lets see if that proves to be true....

I think almost everyone now should get the basics of DCDDR and most are fed up with it, so lets leave that aside, what do you guys think off the Realtek's ALC650. Would any of you actually use the onboard sound or stick to a seperate soundcard? I heard the best onboard sound atm is Nvidia`s Soundstorm...
And is it true, a friend told me, I personally dont believe him, that one should try to use as few onboard devices like sound and ethernet since those slow down performance. These days are over right?

 

[NoVo]

Originally posted by: poldi1
one should try to use as few onboard devices like sound and ethernet since those slow down performance. These days are over right?

The onboard devices are using the same 33MHZ PCI bus that would be used on any add-in PCI device. A performance decrease using onboard devices doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[TheCoz]

I've just ordered an Asus P4G8X Deluxe from my main supplier. He says ETA is 25th December but with the Christmas hols the delivery date will be more like the 30th. I suspect that it may be more like early January by the time I see it because of further delays in delivery though.

The cost was £144 (about $226). For comparison, an Asus P4PE GL would have cost me £124 ($195). Going GB only cost me an extra £20 over going for an equivalent i845PE board.

I'll post some more news when I have it.

 

[poldi1]

Thought so, thanks NoVo

 

[ShoNuff]

Originally posted by: TheCoz
I've just ordered an Asus P4G8X Deluxe from my main supplier. He says ETA is 25th December but with the Christmas hols the delivery date will be more like the 30th. I suspect that it may be more like early January by the time I see it because of further delays in delivery though.

The cost was £144 (about $226). For comparison, an Asus P4PE GL would have cost me £124 ($195). Going GB only cost me an extra £20 over going for an equivalent i845PE board.

I'll post some more news when I have it.

Coz, I'm glad that you were able to order your board. That must mean that they should be available soon on this side of the pond. I just received my memory today and don't have a board to put it into.

I hope the Gigabyte boards make their appearance into the retail channels soon, very soon!

 

[TheCoz]

Originally posted by: ShoNuff
I hope the Gigabyte boards make their appearance into the retail channels soon, very soon!

While you're waiting you may want to check my GB review thread over here. To find the latest updated list go to the last post and work backwards!!

The latest update contains 19 links to reviews for 7 different boards (Asus, DFI, AOpen, Gigabyte, Tyan, IWill, MSI).

 

[Fant]

I dunno about you guys but while i see big improvements in the SiSandra benchmark....if you look at any other benchmark for games or apps going from SC DDR to DC DDR or even to RAMBUS gives at most a 2-3% performance gain. Is that really worth a new $200 motherboard? I guess its true that SC DDR seems to satisfy the needs of current applications and having more wont help? Or can anyone find benchmarks that show an application getting a 25% performance improvement just like sisandra does?