Great Op Ed

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
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Link

I found this linked on drudge...i know its WND...

But in this part Pat makes a great point:

"E pluribus unum" ? out of many, one - was the national motto the men of '76 settled upon. One sees the pluribus. But where is the unum? One sees the diversity. But where is the unity?

Is America, too, breaking up?

I would like to think the left and right fringes are vocal but a vast majority and the rest of us are in the middle.

I think it is time we liberal, conservative, and moderate unite as Americans who love and respect our freedom and want it to continue.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
The split in the U.S. isn't nearly as stark as it was when there were actual, legitimate civil wars erupting in this country for years before the Civil War. As long as the economy continues to remain strong people just aren't nearly that irresponsible or motivated to incite revolution.

But in the end, you're going to have batshit crazies on both sides, and luckily neither of them have any power because the middle 80% dictate the direction of the country. All you can do is sit back and watch the crazies squirm and duke it out for domination of the YouTube-sphere.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
I think the major change came with the notion that States Rights no longer had strong legal standing. We still have those issues... "Supremacy Clause" "Fourteenth Amendment" makes us really one big state, in my opinion.

I think the only way we ever did become United was to insure States Rights except that power given the Federal Government explicitly in the Constitution.

I think the motto didn't suggest absolute unity nor the absence of common purpose. It seems to me to be indicative of We stand as one against all others... or like that.

EDIT: The 'we' above means to me the States... and the United States is the one..
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
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Buchanan's a mixed bag. I've heard him come up with some interesting insights, but I've heard more dumb ass right wingnut crap from him than smart ingsight. Overall, he's stale old right wingnut who's been spewing bullshit since he was writing speeches for Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew, the previous worst criminal turds to hold the executive branch before the Bushwhackos. He's published on WingNut Daily and linked from Drudge, another wingnut spewer, which is a perfect setup for some kind of wingnut trifecta of crediblility loss.

I think the particular piece at the link is pretty vapid. He wrote:

We are not only more divided than ever on politics, faith and morality, but along the lines of class and ethnicity. Those who opposed Sonia Sotomayor for the Supreme Court and stood by Sgt. Crowley in the face-off with Harvard's Henry Louis Gates were called racists. But this time they did not back down. They threw the same vile word right back in the face of their accusers, and Barack Obama.

Consider but a few issues on which Americans have lately been bitterly divided: school prayer, the Ten Commandments, evolution, the death penalty, abortion, homosexuality, assisted suicide, affirmative action, busing, the Confederate battle flag, the Duke rape case, Terri Schiavo, Iraq, amnesty, torture.

Now it is death panels, global warming, "birthers" and socialism. If a married couple disagreed as broadly and deeply as Americans do on such basic issues, they would have divorced and gone their separate ways long ago. What is it that still holds us together?

He laments the differences currently tearing at the nation, but for all of the intellect I've occasionally seen from him, he takes no stands, makes no judgments and proposes no solutions about these issues as if there were no absolutes of right and wrong.

The only words that come to mind about this piece are LAME and PATHETIC. :roll: < yawn >
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
well last time I looked.
Eagles have 2 wings.
A left wing and a right wing.
together they enable him to fly.

I think the analogy is ok for our country also.
You middle of the roaders give balance
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Why are the same people who say that giving any consideration to the 'common good' when it comes to economic policies is evil communism, also getting teary eyed when the same basic sentiment is said in Latin about 'pluribus' and 'unum'? The same people who champion individual rights not only where they're good, but to an extreme ignoring any harm, also cheering the sentiment of the many being one, an even more extreme form of the idea socialism embraces?

I actually have an opinion on the answer, that involves the psyvhology of the people, and that's not a cheap shot that they're crazy.

It means that when they see 'the community' as a threat to them as an individual - i.e., a liberal is talking - they go to the extreme on 'individual rights'. But when they are getting to identify with the group - they are 'an American' and America is powerful - they eat it up and can't get enough of everyone coming together 'for America'.

It's partly why they are so vocal in support of the rights in general - free speech makes 'their nation' great, so good for it - but against the actual practice - that's dissent against 'their country', so it's bad, those lousy ungrateful commie hippies. IMO, it's a confused political idea leading to irrational and harmful behavior, but there you go.

To go on a little with one more example, it's why candidates who appeal to them as being 'in' with them - the scriptural references snuck into Bush speeches to appeal to fundamentalists, the Palin painting of herself as David against a literal Goliath media - appeal to the people so well. They eat up the message that 'one of them' can gain power against the evil government - and the Bushes and Palins who understand that, manipulate them shamelessly with it.

They're terribly duped and exploited - but tell them that, and they'll attack you as insulting them. Just give them a diet of 'why liberals are bad', and they're happy.

You might think that they could be told the facts and the scam exposed, but it's very hard to get through years of ideolgy.

For a trivial example, when Bush says 'Nucyoolur' not because Harvard didn't teach him the English language but as a political manipulation to be folksy, they don't recognize what he's doing as manipulation, they instead protect him from the liberal elitists who attack him for being folksy, and screw those elitets asses. Many liberals are unwilling to play that game and manipulate the voters of that type, they prefer to 'stick to the issues' and a rational approach - and they don't get many of their votes.

So, they'll mock liberals for holding hands and singing 'Kumbaya', but they'll hold hands and since 'e. pluribus unum'. They'll resent any 'collective' effort for social security, for Medicare, for Universal Healthcare, insisting on the role of individual people over any collective effort - even while saying how important 'unity' is, apparently as long as it doesn't actually do something united, other than war, which should never be challenged as misguided, because that's an attack on the unity for the war.

Pat Buchanan is a master polemicist at appealing to this 'patriotic sentiement' in people; the problem is, after he gets you hugging him, where he takes you next.

That's a common technique of a demagogue - grab with you with one line, to get you nodding your head to another far worse line he's really selling.

In fact, there's a loose connection to one of the most basic sales techniques - sales reps who know ask you a question immediately that you can only answer yes to, to get you saying yes to *anything*, because there's a sort of inertia that carries from it to the next question. This is why you often find yourself with a good sales rep saying 'yes' to his questions and waiting to say 'no' to the deal, but finding it hard when the time comes.

Questions like'which one do you like' or 'what do you like about it' are designed to sound like honest questions, btu to force you to say positive things about the purchase.

When you might be thinking pretty negatively about it, if you are saying positive after positive, that can start to change your opinion.

Buchanan knows that everyone has some basic things they'll say 'hell ya!' to, and he knows how to get people going on them. Now that he's not actively working for corrupt power like Nixon and Reagan, he's free to use all the anti-government sentiment he can incite to get people nodding - even against Republicans he has no special obligation to, which he knows adds to his credibility. 'Oh wow, Buchanan criticized Republicans too, that says he's not some partisan - let's listen, maybe we've been wrong.'

Buchanan's problem with Republicans is that he's sort of 'off the ranch', to fight the big ideological war, contemptuous of the Repuclibans playing politicis to win elections.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,012
8,049
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Dems are quick to dismiss him because they are in power. God forbid something negative happen that could reflect poorly on them, but it?s a great idea once Republicans are in office.

This topic itself is self evident of what Pat Buchanan is saying. Our political system will not solve our differences, and as government proponents shove themselves down our throats, the backlash will become violent.

The meltdown of our bankrupt socialist system will play a very key role in all of this. Our increasing Central and South American crime rates will contribute. Impoverished and desperate people will do desperate things.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
His message is very legit.. but lest he forget it was his Xtians and the Bush Admin that started all this shit recently..

Hoooray for Christians spreading their hatred and not considering it to be Judgmental towards their Gods children

anyone remember the 2004 elections and all the GAY HATING Xtians aligning with Bush and Darth Cheney ..
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Topic Title: Great Op Ed
Topic Summary: By Pat Buchanan

The word "Great"=! Pat Buchanan

Epic fail OP as usual

So instead of being united in freedom, you all would rather be united in chains?

I have complete disdain for the left and no longer any respect for the right.

The left lies to people every damn day. They tell people especially minorities that they are there to help and prop them up.

All they really do is encourage and manipulate to keep them down so the left can gain or stay in power.

Richard Wright recognized this 50 years ago but no one listens....

Big Oil, Big Corporations, etc... The left rails against them and says they will take from the Rich and give to the poor. The people that lap that shit up are greedy sloths. They don't want to earn anything, they want it handed to them and the left exploits this left and right.

The right exploits those who don't think its right to be taxed so it can be given to those who won't work.

Both sides only care about their own power and exploiting the masses.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: dahunan
His message is very legit.. but lest he forget it was his Xtians and the Bush Admin that started all this shit recently..

Hoooray for Christians spreading their hatred and not considering it to be Judgmental towards their Gods children

anyone remember the 2004 elections and all the GAY HATING Xtians aligning with Bush and Darth Cheney ..

As if the Left wing liberals haven't spent the last 50 years bashing Christians.

Government needs to stay out of religion and vice verse.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: dahunan
His message is very legit.. but lest he forget it was his Xtians and the Bush Admin that started all this shit recently..

Hoooray for Christians spreading their hatred and not considering it to be Judgmental towards their Gods children

anyone remember the 2004 elections and all the GAY HATING Xtians aligning with Bush and Darth Cheney ..

As if the Left wing liberals haven't spent the last 50 years bashing Christians.

Government needs to stay out of religion and vice verse.

Probably wouldnt bash Christians if they

stayed out of politics
and didnt proselytize all the time

^^^^ they fuck up this country all the time.. getting Bush re-elected will be looked at by historians as an epic blunder... even they know they were tricked and abused.. but are too fucking deep in everyone elses business to see
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
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As soon as the American economy tanks for good, this country will be fractionated in many different nation-states. Like another poster said, what keeps us together is our strong economy. That's what kept the Roman Empire together as well. When the economy collapsed, Rome split off into several different empires. The same will happen with America.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,459
527
126
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: dahunan
His message is very legit.. but lest he forget it was his Xtians and the Bush Admin that started all this shit recently..

Hoooray for Christians spreading their hatred and not considering it to be Judgmental towards their Gods children

anyone remember the 2004 elections and all the GAY HATING Xtians aligning with Bush and Darth Cheney ..

As if the Left wing liberals haven't spent the last 50 years bashing Christians.

Government needs to stay out of religion and vice verse.

Probably wouldnt bash Christians if they

stayed out of politics
and didnt proselytize all the time

^^^^ they fuck up this country all the time.. getting Bush re-elected will be looked at by historians as an epic blunder... even they know they were tricked and abused.. but are too fucking deep in everyone elses business to see

Who you are looking at is Right Wing Evangelicals.

Don't bunch all of them in that group.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,459
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Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As soon as the American economy tanks for good, this country will be fractionated in many different nation-states. Like another poster said, what keeps us together is our strong economy. That's what kept the Roman Empire together as well. When the economy collapsed, Rome split off into several different empires. The same will happen with America.

You are probably more right than you know.
 

Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
647
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0
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As soon as the American economy tanks for good, this country will be fractionated in many different nation-states. Like another poster said, what keeps us together is our strong economy. That's what kept the Roman Empire together as well. When the economy collapsed, Rome split off into several different empires. The same will happen with America.

So what will the regions be?

Northern California w/ Pac. NW

Southern Cali, SW, parts of Texas for Spanish speaking "North Mexico"

The Libertarian states like Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho in a loose confederacy

Sovereign Hawai'i

The Northeast/MidAtlantic

The South

What will happen to the Midwest and Appalachia?


Of my regions, I think the most likely to become separate entities are a Spanish SW and the Libertarian states (which can survive off natural resources and import everything they need).
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,459
527
126
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As soon as the American economy tanks for good, this country will be fractionated in many different nation-states. Like another poster said, what keeps us together is our strong economy. That's what kept the Roman Empire together as well. When the economy collapsed, Rome split off into several different empires. The same will happen with America.

So what will the regions be?

Northern California w/ Pac. NW

Southern Cali, SW, parts of Texas for Spanish speaking "North Mexico"

The Libertarian states like Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho in a loose confederacy

Sovereign Hawai'i

The Northeast/MidAtlantic

The South

What will happen to the Midwest and Appalachia?


Edit, when I look at this list I realize shared culture binds America as well. Europe may have shared values but disparate cultures and histories. Of my regions, I think the most likely to become separate entities are a Spanish SW and the Libertarian states (which can survive off natural resources and import everything they need).

Link to Prediction for 2010
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As soon as the American economy tanks for good, this country will be fractionated in many different nation-states. Like another poster said, what keeps us together is our strong economy. That's what kept the Roman Empire together as well. When the economy collapsed, Rome split off into several different empires. The same will happen with America.

So what will the regions be?

Northern California w/ Pac. NW

Southern Cali, SW, parts of Texas for Spanish speaking "North Mexico"

The Libertarian states like Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho in a loose confederacy

Sovereign Hawai'i

The Northeast/MidAtlantic

The South

What will happen to the Midwest and Appalachia?


Edit, when I look at this list I realize shared culture binds America as well. Europe may have shared values but disparate cultures and histories. Of my regions, I think the most likely to become separate entities are a Spanish SW and the Libertarian states (which can survive off natural resources and import everything they need).

Link to Prediction for 2010

If you are in with that nutjob, I'll write you off right now.

The federal government would deny payment to foreign nations before it would go to war with it's own states over debt issues.

If any nation wanted to do anything about it, like or not, we are an easily defensible nation. We have the best air and naval weaponry in the entire world and, while our land forces may be smaller, they are better equipped and other countries can't get over here in the numbers needed to do anything, they would literally be blown out of the water.

Also, the predicted break up of states doesn't make any sense at all either.

The mexican influence also makes little sense if you consider Hispanic population make up of the various southwestern states, because it doesn't include Arizona or California.

If China wanted to make a forced control attempt, do you think they'd leave some of the more profitable states to Mexico?

I could go on and on, but that is total bullshit from a whackjob, and you are a nutjob for promoting it.

 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,459
527
126
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As soon as the American economy tanks for good, this country will be fractionated in many different nation-states. Like another poster said, what keeps us together is our strong economy. That's what kept the Roman Empire together as well. When the economy collapsed, Rome split off into several different empires. The same will happen with America.

So what will the regions be?

Northern California w/ Pac. NW

Southern Cali, SW, parts of Texas for Spanish speaking "North Mexico"

The Libertarian states like Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho in a loose confederacy

Sovereign Hawai'i

The Northeast/MidAtlantic

The South

What will happen to the Midwest and Appalachia?


Edit, when I look at this list I realize shared culture binds America as well. Europe may have shared values but disparate cultures and histories. Of my regions, I think the most likely to become separate entities are a Spanish SW and the Libertarian states (which can survive off natural resources and import everything they need).

Link to Prediction for 2010

If you are in with that nutjob, I'll write you off right now.

The federal government would deny payment to foreign nations before it would go to war with it's own states over debt issues.

If any nation wanted to do anything about it, like or not, we are an easily defensible nation. We have the best air and naval weaponry in the entire world and, while our land forces may be smaller, they are better equipped and other countries can't get over here in the numbers needed to do anything, they would literally be blown out of the water.

Also, the predicted break up of states doesn't make any sense at all either.

The mexican influence also makes little sense if you consider Hispanic population make up of the various southwestern states, because it doesn't include Arizona or California.

If China wanted to make a forced control attempt, do you think they'd leave some of the more profitable states to Mexico?

I could go on and on, but that is total bullshit from a whackjob, and you are a nutjob for promoting it.

I'm not promoting it but it did make the news a few months ago so it was the closest thing i knew of resembling what the guy was taking about.

I hope it would never come to that.
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
0
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As soon as the American economy tanks for good, this country will be fractionated in many different nation-states. Like another poster said, what keeps us together is our strong economy. That's what kept the Roman Empire together as well. When the economy collapsed, Rome split off into several different empires. The same will happen with America.

So what will the regions be?

Northern California w/ Pac. NW

Southern Cali, SW, parts of Texas for Spanish speaking "North Mexico"

The Libertarian states like Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho in a loose confederacy

Sovereign Hawai'i

The Northeast/MidAtlantic

The South

What will happen to the Midwest and Appalachia?


Of my regions, I think the most likely to become separate entities are a Spanish SW and the Libertarian states (which can survive off natural resources and import everything they need).

Something along those lines I'd imagine. The US has been putting off paying the piper for too long. Too many things are coming to a head. All it needs is one big spark.

Off the top of my head at 2am, we are facing the following major problems:

1. Public Education. We consistently rank near the bottom of math, reading, science scores for the developed world. We have world class universities that are serving foreign students for PhDs in engineering and science. Studies have placed over 50% of engineering MS and PhD students are now foreign born. The US is increasingly devoid of the talent needed to maintain it's infrastructure.

2. Our public infrastructure is a mess. It's been woefully underfunded and neglected for at least 20 years. We need something like 5 trillion dollars over the next 20 years in order to maintain our infrastructure, and something like 9 trillion dollars to actually improve the infrastructure. Many of the structures in place, such as sewage, water, dams, roads and bridges are 50-100 years old. This ties into #1, where we increasingly have less expertise needed to maintain these structures.

3. Public debt. This is probably going to be the catalyst. If the US continues to recklessly spend money and refuse to pay back it's treasuries, the countries that finance our debt will simply stop to do so. Already, most of our debt is financed by states that are at least indifferent to our interests. We are entrusting the financial security of this country to countries like China, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Germany, Norway, Finland, Japan. We are paying nearly a trillion dollars a year in defense costs (Pentagon budget, oversea bases, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan). We have learned nothing from the other empires in history. These costs are becoming an albatross onto us.

4. Healthcare. The US spends more government money on healthcare than any other country in the world and yet, parts of the US are worse than the 3rd world. We have the highest infantry mortality rate in the developed world. Sure, in a few select areas, the US is better than the rest of the world. But taken at a whole system level, the US woefully underperforms while paying more than double what is necessary.

5. Vested interests. This ties into all of my points. The country has gotten fat and lazy and corporations want us to keep it that way. We have Teachers' Unions fighting back any changes to curriculum, even though it's desperately needed. We have insurance companies fighting tooth and nail to keep the US at the bottom rung of health care. We have unionized labor willing to cut it's nose off to spite it's face. Every where I look, I see vested interests preventing progress. The US simply lacks the will to do what is necessary.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Harvey
wingnut crap ....right wingnut ...on WingNut Daily ....wingnut spewer....wingnut trifecta.

Really like that term eh Harvey, and whom would you point to as being an author worthy of a read?
 

Underclocked

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,041
0
76
Missourians will break up into several smaller divisions, probably not even along country lines. We will fully align with no other regions and then fight each other just for the hell of it.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
61
91
Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Harvey

wingnut crap ....right wingnut ...on WingNut Daily ....wingnut spewer....wingnut trifecta.

Really like that term eh Harvey, and whom would you point to as being an author worthy of a read?

I use the term when and where it applies. But since you ask, here are a couple worth reading:

Johnathan Turley, Constitutional scholar and professor of law at The George Washington University Law School

John Dean, former Whitehouse counsel to Richard Nixon, author of "Worse Than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush" and "Conservatives without Conscience."
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,650
50,900
136
I can't believe even one person takes the idea of the US breaking up seriously. If you do this, you're watching too much cable news. The news programs highlight the crazies, because they make the news. They are in no way indicative of how the vast majority of people in the US think, and there are no strong economic or social reasons for the US to split up. Last time we had a civil war we did it because one half of our country was participating in the systematic enslavement of an entire race. Now what are we going to do it over, gay people getting married?

Anyone who thinks our problems currently would lead to civil war or a breakup needs to go learn what REAL national problems look like.
 
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