Greatest raw athlete ever?

[smackababy]

Quoted for lulz.

Babe Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams with pitching that was probably more difficult to hit than today. Spitballs, scuffed balls, and tar balls were thrown with regularity, nowadays that stuff is called immediately because of HD cameras.

Fact is, Babe Ruth is the greatest hitter of all time, had the most value of any player in baseball ever, and that likely won't change.

Babe Ruth may have been the best of his era, slightly edging out Lou Gehrig, but of all time? Not even close. Ted Williams was the greatest hitter of all time, followed by Ty Cobb. If we look at hitting in general, Babe Ruth doesn't crack the top 10.

 

[Muse]

I am of the opinion that of all the great boxes, in their primes, Mike Tyson would have dominated them all. He was, for a short time, the greatest boxer ever to have lived. Sadly, he won't be remember for his ability in the ring.

I agree. At their prime, Tyson vs. Ali would have been interesting. Ali would have had to outbox him, won on points. If Mike had landed a serious blow, well, it would be very close to the end. Tyson was the more fearsome fighter many times over. He did not sting like a bee!

 

[Remobz]

Babe Ruth may have been the best of his era, slightly edging out Lou Gehrig, but of all time? Not even close. Ted Williams was the greatest hitter of all time, followed by Ty Cobb. If we look at hitting in general, Babe Ruth doesn't crack the top 10.

Good point. I agree.

 

[Muse]

The "Random Oldguy couldn't play now because we lift weights" is a dumb cliche that needs to die. The question was greatest raw athelete, not greatest trained athlete.

There's no such thing as a born athlete, certainly not a candidate for greatest "raw" athlete, whatever that means. There are genetic predilections, but it's what an athlete does that makes them great. You take your great "raw" athlete, put them in a bed for 5 years and see what kind of athlete they are. They'll turn to jelly.

 

[momeNt]

Babe Ruth may have been the best of his era, slightly edging out Lou Gehrig, but of all time? Not even close. Ted Williams was the greatest hitter of all time, followed by Ty Cobb. If we look at hitting in general, Babe Ruth doesn't crack the top 10.

That's wrong. 100% wrong. look at wOBA, wRC, offensive WAR per season. Babe Ruth leads in all.

ATOT can't stand people with beer guts. It's hilarious the anger that is caused when someone is athletic despite outward physique. The fact is that Babe Ruth also was able to perform sexually for hours at a time. Angry about that too?

 

[zinfamous]

Quoted for lulz.

Babe Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams with pitching that was probably more difficult to hit than today. Spitballs, scuffed balls, and tar balls were thrown with regularity, nowadays that stuff is called immediately because of HD cameras.

Fact is, Babe Ruth is the greatest hitter of all time, had the most value of any player in baseball ever, and that likely won't change.

Babe Ruth also benefited greatly by having many of his monster seasons during the dead ball era of baseball. Consider that a significant number of the homeruns hit early in his career would be considered ground-rule doubles by today's rules.

Still, he was a prolific hitter and monumentally changed the game. He was the first true slugger and forever changed the nature of offense

 

[Childs]

I agree. At their prime, Tyson vs. Ali would have been interesting. Ali would have had to outbox him, won on points. If Mike had landed a serious blow, well, it would be very close to the end. Tyson was the more fearsome fighter many times over. He did not sting like a bee!

I don't think the fighters in those days would have feared Tyson. Tyson crumbled when someone actually fought back. I would be more interested in seeing Tyson vs Frasier or a young George Foreman. People forget Foreman wasnt always a lovable guy...he was the OG Mike Tyson. Except much bigger.

In my mind Ali would simply outbox him early then finish him off late. You can't deny Ali's chin, so he could take 15 rounds of shots and still have enough at the end to win the fight. I' don't think of boxers as greatest all time athletes, but it obviously takes great athletic talent to endure in boxing. If I were to nominate a boxer, if would probably be Roy Jones Jr. I've seen him play basketball, and combined with his boxing style I have no doubt he would have been good in other sports, and he dominated his.

 

[zinfamous]

Era is incredibly important when talking about greatest athlete. Babe Ruth didn't play against black athletes. Also, I find it strange people bitch about hitters using steroids. Fact: more pitchers have been caught using steroid than hitters.

And zin, the reason football players are generally considered above others is because they have a unique combination of requiring speed, agility, and strength. Few other sports have that (rugby, lacrosse, etc do, but those aren't filled with well known athletes). Even in sports like soccer where there is someone so dominant (Pele, for example scored 1200 career goals), he wasn't really that strong.

I am of the opinion that of all the great boxes, in their primes, Mike Tyson would have dominated them all. He was, for a short time, the greatest boxer ever to have lived. Sadly, he won't be remember for his ability in the ring.

I agree and this is why I acknowledged that. Thing is, I think there is a general bias towards that simply because it is such a popular sport and many people aren't even aware of other sports. Consider decathletes--every single one of those skills is required, yet we rarely consider them.

Also, consider the differences in modern era football to classic football: when tackling was actually important, rather than this absurd focus on hitting, or "ringing someone's bell." I firmly believe that the advent of protection (and I do think this is necessary), has had an unintended effect of cheapening and diluting the skills and play style of the game. You need protection because injury is very real; yet protection also allows for a more unrestrained play, at least mentally.

Add to that, the primary focus for today's defense isn't so much as stopping the play (something called a tackle), as it is to knock the everloving shit out of someone. I agree that big hits certainly have their place in the game, but such focus has actually led to some terrible overall play where a rage-minded DT or Corner will give up a huge gain because his momentum--purely generated to lay down the law--missed an elusive RB or wideout. This is one thing I like about Seattle these days--they hound and harass the offense, not shy of penalties, and the focus is on stopping and preventing plays. Still, no one would say they are also soft when it comes to hitting. And look how successful they are at bottling up offenses.

Now think about the oldtimers that played with no helmets, or even leather helmets. More like Rugby where there was and is certainly no lack of toughness; yet the certain threat of the same type of injury will encourage greater skill (tackling), as opposed to unrestrained force.

 

[zinfamous]

Babe Ruth may have been the best of his era, slightly edging out Lou Gehrig, but of all time? Not even close. Ted Williams was the greatest hitter of all time, followed by Ty Cobb. If we look at hitting in general, Babe Ruth doesn't crack the top 10.

also consider that Williams missed, I think, 4 total seasons, in his prime, due to serving in WW2 and then Korea.

Ruth had some stinkers at the end of his career (I think he batted something like .180, his final season with the Braves). Williams again threatened .400 after his first season back from Korea...or something close. He also had some lousy seasons at the end, but it's hard to discount what could have been, had he not missed out on those highly productive years. Consider that he finished in the top 10, basically a few points here and there from the top 3, in every conceivable hitting category at the time. Even playing for one of those missed seasons very likely would have planted him in the top 3.

You also need to mention Pete Rose when it comes to hitters. Still a crime, I think, that you ban this guy for life, for doing things that in no way effected his club; and basically put him in the same conversation has people like Canseco or Bonds, et al.

 

[notposting]

In my opinion, we need to narrow this down.

Only athletes who are VERSATILE should be mentioned. And the versatile ones with the most sports should be taken into consideration. One does not have to be the absolute best in any one sport but good in all of them.

Jim Thorpe gets my vote here. Like I said, imagine if he were alive today with modern science.

Um, you realize most of these guys have excelled at anything and everything athletic they touched until settling on a specialty for their careers?

As exceedingly rare as the "major league level" athlete is, look at how many were able to excel at multiple sports...a handful at best.

 

[smackababy]

also consider that Williams missed, I think, 4 total seasons, in his prime, due to serving in WW2 and then Korea.

Ruth had some stinkers at the end of his career (I think he batted something like .180, his final season with the Braves). Williams again threatened .400 after his first season back from Korea...or something close. He also had some lousy seasons at the end, but it's hard to discount what could have been, had he not missed out on those highly productive years. Consider that he finished in the top 10, basically a few points here and there from the top 3, in every conceivable hitting category at the time. Even playing for one of those missed seasons very likely would have planted him in the top 3.

You also need to mention Pete Rose when it comes to hitters. Still a crime, I think, that you ban this guy for life, for doing things that in no way effected his club; and basically put him in the same conversation has people like Canseco or Bonds, et al.

I agree. I believe Williams won his 6th batting title at like 39 or something crazy old like that.

I think Bonds gets a bad rap because of his steroid years as a hitter and people forget he was a monster athlete before that. He is the only member of the 500 / 500 club (500 stolen bases / 500 homeruns).

 

[manly]

I agree. I believe Williams won his 6th batting title at like 39 or something crazy old like that.

I think Bonds gets a bad rap because of his steroid years as a hitter and people forget he was a monster athlete before that. He is the only member of the 500 / 500 club (500 stolen bases / 500 homeruns).

Barry Bonds gets his rap because he's both an asshole and a cheater. Yes, he would've had HoF credentials anyway. But would he have actually gotten to 500 HRs? Sure there were plenty of other cheaters in the late 90s, but Bonds shouldn't get a slight pass because he didn't need PEDs as much as other guys.

 

[smackababy]

Barry Bonds gets his rap because he's both an asshole and a cheater. Yes, he would've had HoF credentials anyway. But would he have actually gotten to 500 HRs? Sure there were plenty of other cheaters in the late 90s, but Bonds shouldn't get a slight pass because he didn't need PEDs as much as other guys.

Batters don't get an real advantage using steroids, besides distance. Pitchers, which more have been caught using PEDs, gain more from being able to throw harder. While, it is debatable if Bonds would have had that many HRs in his career, he got that many hits with skill, against doping pitchers. This entire late 90s and onward class of players are tainted by steroid use, regardless if they used or not. And, at the same time, you can't say the greats beforehand didn't use either. Anabolic steroids were first used in the 1930s.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

babe ruth actually started as a pitcher for a few years.

greatest raw athlete is peter north

 

[Childs]

To add some women to the discussion, I'd nominate Serena Williams as greatest raw female athlete, and Jackie Joyner-Kersee all around greatest female athlete.

 

[dank69]

Batters don't get an real advantage using steroids, besides distance. ...

This is a popular opinion. I don't agree. Sure they won't help you make better contact, but there is more to it than that. Routine fly balls are now at the wall. What was once at the wall is now out of the park. Line drives and even grounders are through the gaps faster. Basically, all your contact is potentially more productive.

 

[Childs]

Batters don't get an real advantage using steroids, besides distance.

Supposedly Bonds believed HGH helped his eye sight.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/kroich...eroids-use-to-McGwire-Sosa-2540030.php#page-3

 

[kranky]

also consider that Williams missed, I think, 4 total seasons, in his prime, due to serving in WW2 and then Korea.

Ruth had some stinkers at the end of his career (I think he batted something like .180, his final season with the Braves). Williams again threatened .400 after his first season back from Korea...or something close. He also had some lousy seasons at the end, but it's hard to discount what could have been, had he not missed out on those highly productive years. Consider that he finished in the top 10, basically a few points here and there from the top 3, in every conceivable hitting category at the time. Even playing for one of those missed seasons very likely would have planted him in the top 3.

Those missed seasons took a huge toll on Ted's lifetime stats, no question. His eye was so good that I think umpires were sometimes reluctant to call a strike if Ted didn't swing at a pitch, figuring if Ted thought it was a ball, maybe it was a ball.

Babe Ruth had so much mystique around him, that's why his name is still instantly recognizable today. Heck, the Baby Ruth candy bar was named after him although the company always denied it. My favorite Babe Ruth moment was at the end of his career. He hit his last home run in Forbes Field. And he hit 3 HRs that day. And the last one cleared the right field roof (85 feet high!) which had never been done before. Only Ruth could go out like that.

 

[NoTine42]

This is a popular opinion. I don't agree. Sure they won't help you make better contact, but there is more to it than that. Routine fly balls are now at the wall. What was once at the wall is now out of the park. Line drives and even grounders are through the gaps faster. Basically, all your contact is potentially more productive.

I agree, and don't understand why more don't see that.

 

[Guurn]

I just thought I'd throw this TED talk in here since people are talking so much smack about athletes from the old days. I'd personally vote for Bo since he didn't train much. Herschel did tons of body weight exercises.

 

[Muse]

Barry Bonds gets his rap because he's both an asshole and a cheater. Yes, he would've had HoF credentials anyway. But would he have actually gotten to 500 HRs? Sure there were plenty of other cheaters in the late 90s, but Bonds shouldn't get a slight pass because he didn't need PEDs as much as other guys.

I don't get Bonds' rep as an asshole. I haven't seen that at all. He was curt at times with the media, but I didn't see actual rudeness. He didn't kiss their ass and if he didn't feel like talking to them, he didn't. That didn't make him an asshole. He's branded a cheater, but he'd look a lot better in the public's eye if all the other guys who used PED's were outed. As a ballplayer at the plate he was a model of efficiency. He didn't just flail away, he was a poster boy for disciplined hitting. He forced umpires to be honest, didn't just hit homers, etc., got a lot of bases on balls.

 

[zinfamous]

I agree. I believe Williams won his 6th batting title at like 39 or something crazy old like that.

I think Bonds gets a bad rap because of his steroid years as a hitter and people forget he was a monster athlete before that. He is the only member of the 500 / 500 club (500 stolen bases / 500 homeruns).

Yeah, people forget how great Bonds was, a true 5-tooler, long before he was established as a power hitter. He was the next Willie Mays...could even be argued as better.

Barry Bonds gets his rap because he's both an asshole and a cheater. Yes, he would've had HoF credentials anyway. But would he have actually gotten to 500 HRs? Sure there were plenty of other cheaters in the late 90s, but Bonds shouldn't get a slight pass because he didn't need PEDs as much as other guys.

very true. Ted Williams also had issue with the HoF because he was, more or less, an irascible wise and beautiful woman when it came to the public and the press. He wasn't really friendly with his teammates, either (like Gibson). Of course, the press are the core that vote on the HoF, and they are very petty.

as far as other cheaters...shit, if the HoF truly cared about cheating, it would kickout some 70% of the goons that played in the dead ball era and even later. Many of them are and were brazen, admitted cheaters. Greased balls, corked bats, scuffed balls, swapped cores, all of it. It was known then, many of them admitted it well after, and yet they remain in Cooperstown. There is essentially no difference between their antics and the Juicers--probably much more, really, when you consider that steroids are more about stamina/longevity during a much, much longer season, vs the classic cheaters that directly enhanced each individual performance.

 

[zinfamous]

This is a popular opinion. I don't agree. Sure they won't help you make better contact, but there is more to it than that. Routine fly balls are now at the wall. What was once at the wall is now out of the park. Line drives and even grounders are through the gaps faster. Basically, all your contact is potentially more productive.

bat speed is considerably more important than strength when it comes to hitting for distance.

 

[momeNt]

Babe Ruth also benefited greatly by having many of his monster seasons during the dead ball era of baseball. Consider that a significant number of the homeruns hit early in his career would be considered ground-rule doubles by today's rules.

Still, he was a prolific hitter and monumentally changed the game. He was the first true slugger and forever changed the nature of offense

I believe you mean live ball era.

Either way, what he gained from ground rule doubles he lost from the rule of balls needing to LAND in fair territory in order to be home runs. Nowadays it just need to clear the fence in fair territory.

So, deduct between 20 and 30 home runs for ground rule double, and add how many you think? 40+?

Furthermore, he played a good portion of his career when the spitball was legal until 1920. After 1920, they just had to hide it.

Greatest baseball player to ever play. It really isn't even a discussion.

 

[zinfamous]

I don't get Bonds' rep as an asshole. I haven't seen that at all. He was curt at times with the media, but I didn't see actual rudeness. He didn't kiss their ass and if he didn't feel like talking to them, he didn't. That didn't make him an asshole. He's branded a cheater, but he'd look a lot better in the public's eye if all the other guys who used PED's were outed. As a ballplayer at the plate he was a model of efficiency. He didn't just flail away, he was a poster boy for disciplined hitting. He forced umpires to be honest, didn't just hit homers, etc., got a lot of bases on balls.

Bonds demanded his own private cave inside the team locker room, with a pimped-out lazyboy and entertainment system. No one else was allowed in.

He was never really known as a friendly guy.