There is a difference between socialism and some socialist policy in a democratic republic.
Its not all or nothing
So you would be OK sending our military to fight ISIS knowing full well that it's likely we would lose all our troops? I think not.
I take that as a 'no'. Then it looks like it's time to go back to the drachma and hope their resulting "self-imposed" austerity isn't quite as onerous.
Of course that has nothing to do with the argument werepossum was trying to make....I was referring to another aspect of Turkish's horrible analogy.That has nothing to do with the argument werepossum was trying to make, which was that if you think collective action is good you must think individual action is good, which is a stupid argument.
Of course that has nothing to do with the argument werepossum was trying to make....I was referring to another aspect of Turkish's horrible analogy.
Europeans tried to block IMF debt report on Greece: sources
At a meeting on the International Monetary Fund's board on Wednesday, European members questioned the timing of the report which IMF management proposed at short notice releasing three days before Sunday's crucial referendum that may determine the country's future in the euro zone, the sources said.
There was no vote but the Europeans were heavily outnumbered and the United States, the strongest voice in the IMF, was in favor of publication, the sources said.
The Europeans were also concerned that the report could distract attention from a view they share with the IMF that the Tsipras government, in the five months since it was elected, has wrecked a fragile economy that was just starting to recover.
"It wasn't an easy decision," an IMF source involved in the debate over publication said. "We are not living in an ivory tower here. But the EU has to understand that not everything can be decided based on their own imperatives."
The board had considered all arguments, including the risk that the document would be politicized, but the prevailing view was that all the evidence and figures should be laid out transparently before the referendum.
"Facts are stubborn. You can't hide the facts because they may be exploited," the IMF source said.
Then it's really a shame that the world's major financial institutions don't seem to agree with you.You should take that as a yes.
Then let me make my points simple for you...Point #1 - Really bad analogy, Point #2 - Greece is a bad investment regardless of whether one is an individual or a financial institution.So your attack on his analogy has nothing to do with the point that his analogy was made to refute. Uhm, ok.
LOL, wut.
It's an excellent analogy, one I've used in the past when people have tried to make identical arguments about taxation. You might not like it because the scenario sounds crazy, which it is. The point is that the scenarios these clowns are putting forth are every bit as crazy if you think about it.
Greece gets booted from the EU.
Then let me make my points simple for you...Point #1 - Really bad analogy
Point #2 - Greece is a bad investment regardless of whether one is an individual or a financial institution.
Greece's debt is currently too large to be repaid right now no matter what. Other than that, yes, being able to lessen austerity would make their debts easier to repay. That's what multiplier >1 means. If someone loans them $1 and their GDP grows by $2 as a result, their debts are now less of a problem. It's just math.
So you say (1) the debts are too large to be paid, yet (2) lessening austerity would make the same unpayable debts somehow "easier to repay." Evidently mental consistency even between adjacent sentences is too much for you.
And if people loaned them more money, of course their debts would be "less of a problem" for the Greeks, of course this totally ignores that doing so would make them MORE of a problem for the creditors since you're adding more principal to a loan you already said in your first sentence won't be repaid.
When individual action and collective action ultimately have the same bad result, differentiation between the two is moot.Pretty clear that it's a pretty perfect analogy for all the reasons I've said. (in short, both are advocating for individual action in pursuit of a collective purpose that requires coordinated action) You've never once said why you think it's a bad analogy. If you think so, please explain why and be specific.
The debts are too large to be repaid under the current structure. A lot of that debt should be forgiven and then they should be provided with financial assistance to lessen the burdens of austerity now.
This is not complicated.
So the Greeks should be given financial assistance to "make it easier to repay" the loans that you're saying should be forgiven anyway? Why don't you skip the bullshit and just say what you mean, that Greeks should be the welfare clients of Germans and other creditors. We all know the Greeks (and you) aren't asking for anything that would be considered "loans" as anyone understands that term as no one, not even you, expects it to be paid back. Just say they should be given money outright since that's what you really want.
When individual action and collective action ultimately have the same bad result, attempts to differentiate between the two is moot.
How's that going to work then given that you can't boot someone from the EU?
According to this article. the average pension has dropped 61% and half of pensioneers are living below the poverty line. Apparently this is far far too much for the greek economy to bear. I remain unconvinved that chopping the pensions even further would do much other than increase suffering.
It should be noted that there has been a 30% drop in food consumption in Greece. Starvation may become a reality there in the future. It appears that Greece is falling from 1st nation status. That would be a first in the modern era. It is somewhat disquieting.
http://www.theguardian.com/membership/2015/jun/26/guardian-live-can-greece-be-saved
The debts are too large to be repaid under the current structure. A lot of that debt should be forgiven and then they should be provided with financial assistance to lessen the burdens of austerity now.
This is not complicated.
To quote my favorate congressman, Paul Simon:
"Laws?
Laws don't mean anything. We're the US Congress. If we don't like a law, we just change it..."
Besides its not about laws.
Its about money.
And while the Greeks are free to vote not to pay their debts. After all, it is a democracy, isn't it?
The Greeks aren't free to vote themselves money from Germany, Finland, whoever ...
But if you know of a country where the people can vote themselves money from another country's treasury without having to pay it back, please let us all know...
Uno
The proof is in the pudding my friend.Ah, so it's a bad analogy based entirely on an unproven and unsubstantiated assumption that you've decided to embrace.
Uhmm, ok.
You honestly believe that Greece cannot be booted from the EU if they become an unbearable burden on the other members? If so, you are a perfect idiot, and perfection being rare, I find it hard to believe that you honestly believe that.How's that going to work then given that you can't boot someone from the EU?
Yeah, it's not complicated as long as you can do it with someone else's money. Yet when it's your money, there seems to be nothing but complications. Strange, that. It's almost like you don't put your own attachment to your earnings on the same level as other people's attachment to their earnings.The debts are too large to be repaid under the current structure. A lot of that debt should be forgiven and then they should be provided with financial assistance to lessen the burdens of austerity now.
This is not complicated.
Agreed, it is very disturbing and sad. However, one cannot put an entire nation on the dole. One way or another, Greece has to learn to live within its means, whether that involves reforming its socioeconomic structure or increasing its productivity, or both.According to this article. the average pension has dropped 61% and half of pensioneers are living below the poverty line. Apparently this is far far too much for the greek economy to bear. I remain unconvinced that chopping the pensions even further would do much other than increase suffering.
It should be noted that there has been a 30% drop in food consumption in Greece. Starvation may become a reality there in the future. It appears that Greece is falling from 1st nation status. That would be a first in the modern era. It is somewhat disquieting.
http://www.theguardian.com/membership/2015/jun/26/guardian-live-can-greece-be-saved
Yeah, it's not complicated as long as you can do it with someone else's money. Yet when it's your money, there seems to be nothing but complications. Strange, that. It's almost like you don't put your own attachment to your earnings on the same level as other people's attachment to their earnings.
It's never been pointed out why this is a nonsensical argument, but I do agree that feeble attempts at justification have been made. But as always, the defining factor is whether or not it's your money. Someone else's money, it's simple - they should forgive the current loans and then make new loans. Your money, it's complicated so you'd best stay away. Not of course because you value your own money more than someone else's money, just because it's complicated.It has already been pointed out to you why this is a nonsensical argument, but you keep repeating yourself as if that never happened. Strange, that. It's almost like you desperately try to ignore arguments that make you think uncomfortable thoughts.