Greece about to default

[senseamp]

Look like someone has a solution.

http://time.com/3949954/joseph-e-stiglitz-greece-crisis/

The US taxpayer "Yes We Can"


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They'll have to declare war on us and then surrender to get that.

 

[TheSlamma]

ok, so what is your solution for those 25% unemployment (1.5 million people) ??? Should we leave them to die of starvation or should we start a more drastic measures and get them out of the way ???

Should we continue with austerity, decrease pensions and wages further and create more unemployment and more poverty ??

Or do we reform the country in those areas needed and start to grow the economy ???

That is my point, I agree austerity isn't working. Problem with people who wear blinders is they think that anyone who questions them means they must think the opposite. My problem is okay lets say austerity measures goes away.. NOW WHAT?

I don't know what Greece wants to offer the world, if it's tourism then maybe they stop allowing their monuments to crumble to the ground just like Italy keeps doing. But I think it's going to take a lot more than that too.

But the guys running around saying "austerity has failed it's failed see I told you" are not offering anything else up. It's just a classic, hey this didn't work so swing the pendulum the other way that HAS to be the answer.

 

[Charmonium]

Everybody can relax until Sunday. Greece has submitted a new proposal that will be voted on by the EU on Sunday.

The bottom line is that Greece can't get special treatment compared to other peripheral countries. No one is going to agree to that - whether that's fair or not is pretty much irrelevant at this point. Greeks are starting to panic so this is going to get resolved one way or the other in the next few days.

Either Greece is going to agree to some conditions for a new loan (which they've now formally asked for) or they're going to have to start issuing IOUs to pensioners and govt workers as they transition back to the drachma.

 

[senseamp]

I don't know what Greece wants to offer the world, if it's tourism then maybe they stop allowing their monuments to crumble to the ground just like Italy keeps doing.

Dude, do you even know history?
Greek monuments are much older than Roman ones, it's not a maintenance issue during modern times.

 

[senseamp]

Everybody can relax until Sunday. Greece has submitted a new proposal that will be voted on by the EU on Sunday.

The bottom line is that Greece can't get special treatment compared to other peripheral countries.

Greeks aren't asking for special treatment, EU is singling them out for it. They were forced by the EU to run a 2% surplus when other peripheral countries were running 5+% deficits, which resulted in a much more sever contraction than other peripheral countries. You don't do a fiscal contraction in the middle of a recession unless you want a depression. That is true for all countries.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Dude, do you even know history?
Greek monuments are much older than Roman ones, it's not a maintenance issue during modern times.

They poured money into the Parthenon actually. Not a full restoration, but at least some work was done to fix the damage done by the Venetians and the Turks and keep it all standing.

Much of Greece's history also lies scattered in the museums around the world.

 

[TheSlamma]

Dude, do you even know history?

Greek monuments are much older than Roman ones, it's not a maintenance issue during modern times.

Umm yeah actually I do. The Acropolis has been in repairs since 1975 and the times I've been there it's got scaffolding. 10 years ago they said it needed 20 more years of repairs. Well it still needs 20 more now.

Do you know anything about it?

Also you skipped an answer again. You are such a weenie. No solutions at all. Just finger pointing blame

 

[werepossum]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-09/how-much-austerity-has-europe-actually-endured-

Note that other countries pretending to have had austerity like Greece are full of sh!t.
They have all been running structural deficits of >4% while Greece has been running surpluses of 2%.

Dude, everyone knows that is bullshit. Greece isn't paying its bills and still can't meet its obligations.

I have seen people say things like that the last 5 years, why dont you come here to live and work in the Greek wonderland, you will also get a high pension.

I will just say one word,

NATO

That should be enough.

Even assuming I wanted to work in a place where my coworkers didn't work hard and didn't pay their taxes, how could I get a high pension when Greece can't pay its current pensions?

Look like someone has a solution.

http://time.com/3949954/joseph-e-stiglitz-greece-crisis/

The US taxpayer "Yes We Can"

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YES WE CAN borrow money from China and give it away.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Look like someone has a solution.

http://time.com/3949954/joseph-e-stiglitz-greece-crisis/

The US taxpayer "Yes We Can"


.

Umm.....let me be the first to say emphatically "HELLS NO!".

 

[senseamp]

Dude, everyone knows that is bullshit. Greece isn't paying its bills and still can't meet its obligations.

So Bloomberg is lying?

 

[werepossum]

So Bloomberg is lying?

Nope, Greece is lying and Bloomberg is reporting it. Think about it - a primary surplus would mean Greece has money left over unless and until they make their debt payments. Greece is not making their debt payments. Greece has no money. You do the math.

 

[Kwatt]

Umm.....let me be the first to say emphatically "HELLS NO!".

You can bet we will not get to VOTE on it!

Congress may not even get to vote on it...


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[senseamp]

Nope, Greece is lying and Bloomberg is reporting it. Think about it - a primary surplus would mean Greece has money left over unless and until they make their debt payments. Greece is not making their debt payments. Greece has no money. You do the math.

Did you do the math?

I guess not, but here, I'll do it for you.
Greece is due $30B this year. It's GDP is $240B. 30/240=12.5% > 2%.

 

[werepossum]

Did you do the math?

I guess not, but here, I'll do it for you.
Greece is due $30B this year. It's GDP is $240B. 30/240=12.5% > 2%.

Fine, then Greece is in fine fiscal shape and needs no further bailout as long as it continues not making its loan payments, correct?

 

[senseamp]

Fine, then Greece is in fine fiscal shape and needs no further bailout as long as it continues not making its loan payments, correct?

EU will have to bail it out big time after pulling the stunt with shutting down the Greek banks. I hope they enjoy paying for their political "leaders."

 

[werepossum]

EU will have to bail it out big time after pulling the stunt with shutting down the Greek banks. I hope they enjoy paying for their political "leaders."

So Greece didn't need any more money until Greece wasn't given any more money? Okay . . .

 

[senseamp]

So Greece didn't need any more money until Greece wasn't given any more money? Okay . . .

Greece fiscally or Greek banks in terms of liquidity? BTW, T-bills are owed by Greece to the Greek banks. So it could have a 2% structural surplus (tax minus spend) and need money to keep the banks afloat, which is what we are seeing. So your line of reasoning doesn't disprove Greece having a 2% structural surplus. But I guess you already forgot about that claim.

 

[werepossum]

Greece fiscally or Greek banks in terms of liquidity?

Is there a difference? If Greece is running a surplus, Greece should be able to provide its own liquidity. What was cut off was additional loans to keep Greek banks liquid, which by your argument Greece should not need as long as it stops making its debt payments.

I think at this point there is near 100% agreement that Greece cannot continue making its debt payments. However, one side is arguing that Greece is actually running a primary surplus, while the other side is saying it's smoke and mirrors. If Greece is truly running a surplus, then as long as Greece holds off making debt payments, no more austerity is needed; Greece has done it! Everybody's happy except the creditors and Greece can usher in its new Golden Age. Eventually Greece can pay off its creditors and show them how wrong they were to force mean ol' austerity on poor innocent Greece.

If however Greece's surplus was merely more Greek accounting, then Greece is in for some more pain before it gets better. Assuming the EC doesn't cave and put Greece on the eternal dole anyway.

 

[senseamp]

Is there a difference? If Greece is running a surplus, Greece should be able to provide its own liquidity. What was cut off was additional loans to keep Greek banks liquid, which by your argument Greece should not need as long as it stops making its debt payments.

I think at this point there is near 100% agreement that Greece cannot continue making its debt payments. However, one side is arguing that Greece is actually running a primary surplus, while the other side is saying it's smoke and mirrors. If Greece is truly running a surplus, then as long as Greece holds off making debt payments, no more austerity is needed; Greece has done it! Everybody's happy except the creditors and Greece can usher in its new Golden Age. Eventually Greece can pay off its creditors and show them how wrong they were to force mean ol' austerity on poor innocent Greece.

If however Greece's surplus was merely more Greek accounting, then Greece is in for some more pain before it gets better. Assuming the EC doesn't cave and put Greece on the eternal dole anyway.

You probably think this is a good argument because it's long.
But if Greece doesn't make debt payments, its banks will be insolvent, because ECB will cut them off, and there will be a bank run.

 

[Phynaz]

I'm with Yanis.

No money for Greece until the German, and other European, people get to vote on whether or not they want to pay more taxes to support Greece's lifestyle!

Like Yanis says:
"Let the people decide."

Uno

Stop making sense, you'll confuse people.

 

[Phynaz]

I dont remember Greeks voting back in 2009 when they were forced to take the austerity measures that completely destroyed the economy and failed to reach the targets set by the creditors.

What a nice journey,
Creditors completely destroyed the Greek economy from 2009 to 2015, not because they wanted to make Greece to be able to pay its depts, but because they wanted to make Greece ask for more loans. And now they play it hard to get, making European citizens believe it is the Greek Citizens fault because they had high pensions. Very cleaver indeed, we and the rest of the Europeans eat it without understanding a thing.

The game is at the final stage, now Greece will get another loan to make the economy grow. It will take more than 10 years (plus 5 that already past) and perhaps another 50Bn to grow the economy back to were it was in 2008-9. :'(

And then 10 years from now, everyone will be talking about the Greek miracle

Greece destroyed the Greek economy. No one else.

 

[Greenman]

It looks like they're asking for $60B. How much cash does the EU have laying around, or will they borrow it to lend it to the Greeks?

 

[Charmonium]

It looks like they're asking for $60B. How much cash does the EU have laying around, or will they borrow it to lend it to the Greeks?

I'd heard estimates of $50B so I guess they weren't too far off. But that's probably an initial installment. I think the proposal is for 3 years and there's no way 50B will cover them for 3 years.

 

[werepossum]

You probably think this is a good argument because it's long.
But if Greece doesn't make debt payments, its banks will be insolvent, because ECB will cut them off, and there will be a bank run.

You can't have it both ways. If Greece is fiscally sound and running a surplus, it can provide its own bank liquidity as long as it stops sending money abroad. If Greece needs constant infusions of cash to keep its banks open, then Greece is not solvent, period.

 

[glenn1]

And the reality check just arrived.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/w...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Greek Plan Accepts Austerity to Get Debt Relief

ATHENS — Only a day after grim predictions of financial and social collapse in Greece, a scramble appeared underway to work out the details of a new bailout package to bring the country back from the brink of falling out of the euro.

As details of the new offer emerged, it appeared that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras was capitulating to demands on harsh austerity terms that he urged his countrymen to reject in the referendum last Sunday, like tax increases and various measures to cut the costs of pensions.