Greece about to default

[glenn1]

It's never been pointed out why this is a nonsensical argument, but I do agree that feeble attempts at justification have been made. But as always, the defining factor is whether or not it's your money. Someone else's money, it's simple - they should forgive the current loans and then make new loans. Your money, it's complicated so you'd best stay away. Not of course because you value your own money more than someone else's money, just because it's complicated.

It's scary to think you could be so stupid as to think anyone else is stupid enough to buy that, so I'll just assume that you say it because ideologically you can say nothing else.

The people that support further bailouts for the Greeks know it's a terrible business or investment idea and that the money won't get paid back. That's why they wouldn't put their own money into it.

Rather they support bailouts as a political idea, one more means to fight inequality and their other boogeymen. They don't care that some creditor is getting fucked over so that no one has to suffer from mean ol' Austerity and they figure the Germans are as good as anyone to get fucked. You're nothing but a source of funds to them, a patsy whose own interests are to be completely discounted in favor of those who wasted their own money and are thus "in need."

 

[fskimospy]

It's never been pointed out why this is a nonsensical argument, but I do agree that feeble attempts at justification have been made. But as always, the defining factor is whether or not it's your money. Someone else's money, it's simple - they should forgive the current loans and then make new loans. Your money, it's complicated so you'd best stay away. Not of course because you value your own money more than someone else's money, just because it's complicated.

Saying that trying to apply a standard for individual action to a collective action problem isn't complicated at all, actually. It's a really basic concept. You keep trying to ignore it because you're trying to avoid uncomfortable thoughts.

It's scary to think you could be so stupid as to think anyone else is stupid enough to buy that, so I'll just assume that you say it because ideologically you can say nothing else.

As always, some awesome projection on your part. haha.

 

[werepossum]

The people that support further bailouts for the Greeks know it's a terrible business or investment idea and that the money won't get paid back. That's why they wouldn't put their own money into it.

Rather they support bailouts as a political idea, one more means to fight inequality and their other boogeymen. They don't care that some creditor is getting fucked over so that no one has to suffer from mean ol' Austerity and they figure the Germans are as good as anyone to get fucked. You're nothing but a source of funds to them, a patsy whose own interests are to be completely discounted in favor of those who wasted their own money and are thus "in need."

Exactly.

 

[unokitty]

That's all nice and irrelevant.

Really the amount of people in this thread whose brains seem so clogged up with dogma and ideology that they can't deal with thinking about the real world is shocking.

In the real world, Greece is broke.

And it recently elected a government that doesn't want to cut down on corruption, limit tax evasion, or live within their fiscal means.

Its plan is to get tax payers from other countries to subsidize Greece's lifestyle... And when that plan ran into trouble, Greek politicians called those people terrorists and compared them to Nazis.

Its neither dogma nor is it ideology, its just mathematics.

If the politicians have promised their people more benefits than they can afford, and their debt is so high that they can't borrow any more money, then the country is bankrupt...

Its unfortunate that the Greek politicians are in denial. Its unfortunate that the Greek people have been poorly led.

But in the real world, Greece has gone bankrupt multiple times before...

More name calling and more denial is not likely to serve the Greek people well...

Uno

 

[bradly1101]

I was just listening to today's Tsipras speech on foreign news in which he called for a write-down on Greece's debt like what was done for Germany after WWII. In his speech he said, "We negotiate more than we govern." Hmmmm.

With declines in China (although they're still well in the black on the year); the situations in Greece and Puerto Rico and many other nations in debt who find it difficult or impossible to repay; human migration in many areas to escape poverty, war, and other violence; income disparity; and resources running dry all point to (I believe) how crazy the results can be when we try to intersect having an ever-expanding economy with an ever-expanding population on a world of limited resources (riches) and atmosphere (which we seem to value much less). Something has to give under all of the pressure. Poverty is the obvious result, but increasingly entire economies seem at risk. Are the clouds even darker on the horizon? Or will there be a populist uprising with the likes of Bernie Sanders at the helm getting the wealthy to bail us out? Imagine if that happened around the world and billions were lifted out of poverty only to have to support the billions more coming. The chain-reaction of population growth is killing us.

 

[senseamp]

That's how a currency union works. Stronger states subsidize the weaker ones. It's part of the deal that if states give up independent monetary policies, then fiscal policy (aka redistribution) has to do all the work. That's why we have net donor states and net recipient states in the US. If you don't want to do that, fine, but don't create a currency union then. Austerity and a currency union are not compatible.

 

[glenn1]

<Agent Smith> That's the sound of inevitability. </Agent Smith>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/08/us-eurozone-greece-germany-haircut-idUSKCN0PI1E220150708


The German government does not see any reason to grant Greece either a classic debt haircut or any other measures that would slash the value of money on loan to the crisis-ridden country, a spokesman for the finance ministry said on Wednesday.

"At the moment and in principle we see, as the chancellor said expressly in her press conference in Brussels, no occasion at all to discuss this issue - there is no leverage or basis for that," Martin Jaeger said at a news conference.

"That refers to a haircut in the classic sense but I explicitly add we also take that to mean measures that aim to bring about a reduction in the cash value of debt - those are things that you hear in discussions under profiling, restructuring and similar things."

 

[TheSlamma]

That's how a currency union works. Stronger states subsidize the weaker ones. It's part of the deal that if states give up independent monetary policies, then fiscal policy (aka redistribution) has to do all the work. That's why we have net donor states and net recipient states in the US. If you don't want to do that, fine, but don't create a currency union then. Austerity and a currency union are not compatible.

You are really stuck on the austerity thing. We get it, they have to retire at a reasonable age now instead of 60. Tell your local Walmart greeter I'm sure he'll sympathize

 

[senseamp]

<Agent Smith> That's the sound of inevitability. </Agent Smith>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/08/us-eurozone-greece-germany-haircut-idUSKCN0PI1E220150708


The German government does not see any reason to grant Greece either a classic debt haircut or any other measures that would slash the value of money on loan to the crisis-ridden country, a spokesman for the finance ministry said on Wednesday.

"At the moment and in principle we see, as the chancellor said expressly in her press conference in Brussels, no occasion at all to discuss this issue - there is no leverage or basis for that," Martin Jaeger said at a news conference.

"That refers to a haircut in the classic sense but I explicitly add we also take that to mean measures that aim to bring about a reduction in the cash value of debt - those are things that you hear in discussions under profiling, restructuring and similar things."

And Syriza is called the unrealistic one

 

[senseamp]

You are really stuck on the austerity thing. We get it, they have to retire at a reasonable age now instead of 60. Tell your local Walmart greeter I'm sure he'll sympathize

EU is stuck on it and it's been a debacle. In failed scenario, Greece, unemployment is 26%. In scenario that EU considers example of austerity working, Spain, unemployment is 22%.
Republicans think we should try it in America too.

 

[werepossum]

EU is stuck on it and it's been a debacle. In failed scenario, Greece, unemployment is 26%. In scenario that EU considers example of austerity working, Spain, unemployment is 22%.
Republicans think we should try it in America too.

lol And Democrats feel that Greece is a better nation for us to emulate than is Spain. Yet Spain has lower unemployment and money to lend, whereas Greece has higher unemployment and is dependent on the EU's charity to even have enough cash for its citizens to survive day to day.

 

[senseamp]

lol And Democrats feel that Greece is a better nation for us to emulate than is Spain. Yet Spain has lower unemployment and money to lend, whereas Greece has higher unemployment and is dependent on the EU's charity to even have enough cash for its citizens to survive day to day.

Spain has 50% youth unemployment.

 

[WelshBloke]

You honestly believe that Greece cannot be booted from the EU if they become an unbearable burden on the other members? If so, you are a perfect idiot, and perfection being rare, I find it hard to believe that you honestly believe that.

You're obviously an expert on this, why don't you explain to us the process for unilaterally expelling a country from the EU and when that process can occur?

 

[WelshBloke]

Its neither dogma nor is it ideology, its just mathematics.

And it's totally ignoring the reality of a currency union and the way the EU operates.

 

[glenn1]

Spain has 50% youth unemployment.

 

[senseamp]

It's down to 50% now, so they are "only" wasting half of their young people's potential. Quite the achievement for austerity

 

[TheSlamma]

It's down to 50% now, so they are "only" wasting half of their young people's potential. Quite the achievement for austerity

Potential for what though? gyros?

I asked this question yesterday and that is all you could come up with. Greece needs to figure out what it can contribute to the world.

I know your limit is just pointing the finger at austerity, so it is cool to watch you stumble over this

 

[Phynaz]

After six months of negotiations, here's what Tsipras had to say:

"We demand an agreement with our neighbours, one that gives us a sign we are exiting from the crisis which will demonstrate light at end of the tunnel."

Who is he to demand anything? He should be pleading.

 

[Phynaz]

Potential for what though? gyros?

I asked this question yesterday and that is all you could come up with. Greece needs to figure out what it can contribute to the world.

I know your limit is just pointing the finger at austerity, so it is cool to watch you stumble over this

Lol, Gyro is what they should call their new currency.

 

[Turkish]

You honestly believe that Greece cannot be booted from the EU if they become an unbearable burden on the other members? If so, you are a perfect idiot, and perfection being rare, I find it hard to believe that you honestly believe that.

Yes I honestly believe that. That's why there are binding treaties. You can suspend member states for human rights violations but not kick them out. The unanimous agreement of all member states is a requirement for amendment of membership provisions.

 

[Phynaz]

EU is stuck on it and it's been a debacle. In failed scenario, Greece, unemployment is 26%. In scenario that EU considers example of austerity working, Spain, unemployment is 22%.
Republicans think we should try it in America too.

How did austerity work out for Ireland?

I'm guessing that because it was absolutely successful on all accounts you would rather just ignore it.

 

[senseamp]

Potential for what though? gyros?

I asked this question yesterday and that is all you could come up with. Greece needs to figure out what it can contribute to the world.

I know your limit is just pointing the finger at austerity, so it is cool to watch you stumble over this

They had 7.5% unemployment prior to the crisis. I guess everyone else was making gyros
Austerity has failed spectacularly. Just read IMF's own projections from 2010 and compare to reality. Wrong by 30% of GDP, because they assumed austerity was free and wouldn't destroy a country's economy.

 

[TheSlamma]

They had 7.5% unemployment prior to the crisis. I guess everyone else was making gyros
Austerity has failed spectacularly. Just read IMF's own projections from 2010 and compare to reality. Wrong by 30% of GDP, because they assumed austerity was free and wouldn't destroy a country's economy.

You still continue to dodge the question.

what can Greece do NOW though? Let everyone retire at 60 and all of a sudden the youth will have jobs again? doing WHAT? answer this time

 

[senseamp]

How did austerity work out for Ireland?

I'm guessing that because it was absolutely successful on all accounts you would rather just ignore it.

Ireland ran the biggest deficit and got the biggest growth.

I guess in your mind that proves that austerity works

 

[senseamp]

You still continue to dodge the question.

what can Greece do NOW though? Let everyone retire at 60 and all of a sudden the youth will have jobs again? doing WHAT? answer this time

Do you really think raising retirement age and keeping more old people working will help when there are not enough jobs by 30% already? All you are going to get is even higher youth unemployment, which will translate to enormous lost economic potential for decades to come.