agreed. the people who are footing the bill should be the ones voting on it.
but no matter what happens it's clear greece can NOT continue on how it wants too.
I'm with Yanis.
No money for Greece until the German, and other European, people get to vote on whether or not they want to pay more taxes to support Greece's lifestyle!
Like Yanis says:
"Let the people decide."
Uno
Does seem strange that the people getting the money can vote on whether there should be strings but the people providing the money aren't allowed to vote an anything about it.
I'm with Yanis.
No money for Greece until the German, and other European, people get to vote on whether or not they want to pay more taxes to support Greece's lifestyle!
Like Yanis says:
"Let the people decide."
Uno
Does seem strange that the people getting the money can vote on whether there should be strings but the people providing the money aren't allowed to vote an anything about it.
Tusk has also stated yesterday or the day before something along the lines of "We as bureaucrats cannot have the burden of a humanitarian crisis in Greece, we cannot be remembered as those who failed the European Union." He probably won't be seated at that post for long.
Germany conceded on Thursday that Greece would need some debt restructuring as part of any new loan program to make its economy viable as the Greek cabinet raced to finalize reform proposals to avert an imminent economic meltdown.
The admission by German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble came hours before a midnight deadline for Athens to submit a reform plan meant to convince European partners to give it another loan to save it from a possible exit from the euro.
Greece wasn't the only European Country impacted by the economic downturn. Though, the other countries implemented real reform.From central European minnows such as Slovakia to Baltic eurozone republics such as Latvia and Lithuania, hard-pressed pensioners and workers earning barely €500 a month are at a loss as to why Greece should qualify for more largesse.
Milda’s monthly pension is €293 a month , well under half the current level in Greece. When Latvia went through a similar debt crisis in 2009, it imposed swingeing budget cuts and tax increases worth about 15% of GDP over three years. Output fell by a quarter and unemployment soared to more than 20%. The population fell as people left in droves.
These measures were hugely controversial at the time, and many people thought they would lead to catastrophe. The US economist Paul Krugman predicted at the end of 2008: “Latvia is the new Argentina.”
By the second half of 2010, however, the economy had started to grow again, and from 2011 to 2013 Latvia was among the fastest growing countries in the EU. Despite the fact that the currency was not devalued, exports are now at record highs, some 60% above where they were before the crisis.
So in Latvia there is a widespread view: “If we did it, why can’t the Greeks?”
In next-door Lithuania, politicians are also struggle to tell their electorate why a country that tightened its belt should now pay for one that will not.
The average monthly pension in Lithuania is €242.10 before tax, compared with €700 in Greece. The average wage in Lithuania is €699.80 before tax and €543.60 after, again way below the Greek average.
Average Monthly Pensions (In Euros)
Greece 833
Lativa 293
Lithuania 242
...the Greeks shouldn’t be so arrogant about it,” Goštautas said. “They suffered cuts from a higher level, and these cuts had to be painful. It’s hard to help someone when you’re not in a good situation yourself...”
Valentinas Mazuronis, an MEP and head of the Labour party, one of the members of the current coalition, said Lithuania should not give any money to Greece.
“It is time to say ‘stop’. Not a single penny to Greece until reforms are actually launched,” he said. Further aid should only be granted if Greece takes real measures instead of “another hocus-pocus”.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/09/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0P40EO20150709
Looks like Germany is getting with the program on debt restructuring.
Poorer than Greece: the EU countries that reject a new Athens bailout
In Latvia and Lithuania, pensioners and other poor people wonder why they are being asked to pay to bail out their far richer Greek counterparts
Greece wasn't the only European Country impacted by the economic downturn. Though, the other countries implemented real reform.
From a political perspective, implementing real reform is problematic. Playing the victim card is easy. Politicians everywhere understand that hate is a great unifier.
In Greece, the politicians found implementing hate, of Germany, of Bankers, of whoever, was easier than implementing real reform. And now, they may get money from countries that are even poorer than they are.
Like Robin Hood, except in reverse...
Uno
"Fiscal measures" = austerity. Greeks have no options and they know it, the whole referendum was just a sham to appease the people. Now that's over they'll meekly crawl back to their creditors and accept the offered terms.
I don't think the Greek people are actually going to starve either way. There's nothing inherently wrong with Greeks, they just don't work much and don't pay their taxes because in their society that is acceptable. People are people, more or less, and if Americans could enjoy the same lifestyle without working as hard or as long and without paying taxes, we would. WHen Greeks have to work harder and longer, they will. It's more of a question of whether Greece can continue to be bailed out in return for vague promises of future reforms. Or if the other EU nations fold, Greece can spend their money without any reforms at all, at least for a few more years or until a miracle happens.The question is whether Greece is worth saving for Western democracy or if it should be left to fail. If left to fail, there is hardly any doubt that it will end up in the loving embrace of Mother Russia. I am not necessarily opposed to such an eventuality, are you?
To answer your question, I would oppose strings that caused actual starvation. Think about it. We will help you out only if 20% of your people are left to starve to death, would you support such strings?
Greece is a failed state. They are on the brink of violent, deadly revolution. I have no solutions. It is truly a Greek tragedy. I see no good outcomes only "less catastrophic" ones.
Based on your opinion?http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-09/how-much-austerity-has-europe-actually-endured-
Note that other countries pretending to have had austerity like Greece are full of sh!t.
They have all been running structural deficits of >4% while Greece has been running surpluses of 2%.
Based on your opinion?
Relax, we know you hate austerity, no one here is going to take away your entitlements you obviously live on.
$700 average wage counts as a success story for austerity. High bar indeed.
...Greece has been running surpluses of 2%.
Makes you wonder how they still managed to run out of money. Don't it?
Uno
Yeah we heard youYou can raise retirement age to 100, it's not going to create more jobs. Unemployment rate will simply go up, so you'll have less pension but more welfare. Companies aren't going to Greece saying, gee, if we only had more 60-65 year olds to hire, we'd do business here.
Even Eurocrats are now saying they'll have to send humanitarian aid to Greece to offset the effects of austerity they are imposing. Greece is now an austerity disaster area.
Yeah we heard you
There's nothing inherently wrong with Greeks, they just don't work much and don't pay their taxes because in their society that is acceptable.
Personally I don't see any particular danger in having Greece host Russian naval and army bases, but given Ukraine, the rest of the EU may disagree enough to keep Greece on the dole. I don't think that between them Russia and Greece can afford that, but if Putin plans on annexing Greece he might well swing it. Pretty sure that would run afoul of the EU treaty requirements though, so hosting Russian bases would probably eject Greece immediately.
Still waiting on you to answer what these young non working Greeks can do for a living. Dump austerity and all of a sudden they will get jobs out of thin air?We haven't heard you though. Surely you have some substantive arguments in your head, even if you haven't posted them yet. I want to believe
Still waiting on you to answer what these young non working Greeks can do for a living. Dump austerity and all of a sudden they will get jobs out of thin air?
This is the part you blaze out or just raise the austerity flag again.
More money to spend on what though? see you keep dodging the question no matter what.Exactly, more money by consumers to spend = more jobs. Cutting pensions and raising consumption taxes = less consumption = less jobs.
More money to spend on what though? see you keep dodging the question no matter what.
Only so many Kalamata pickers and last I checked Greece isn't on the list of countries everyone outsources their jobs to. Sure it might help SOME, but what are you drawing up? That 5 years worth of people retiring and a bunch of money thrown at people is going to just get them to spend so much money they will make up enough jobs to employ 20%?