Greed and online piracy ...

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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
I'm a bit torn when it comes to the subject of copyright of intellectual property such as Disney's Mickey Mouse. I think it's largely because I don't think of something like Mickey Mouse as simply a creation of Walt Disney, but also the effort put in by Disney over the course of many decades to make that character a success. If we consider that characters are mutable works, which means their intention is simply dictated by society's view, could a third-party's use of the character ruin the work put in by Disney? In my mind, Pepe the Frog is an interesting example of what can go wrong when you lose control over your work. Now, I do think that Mickey Mouse's character has far more resiliency than a fairly unknown character from a random French cartoonist, but it is theoretically possible to poison the public perception of Mickey Mouse too.

Although, I think that's arguably touching more on a concept of creative license over a character and not ownership of works. In other words, it's saying Disney should probably retain control over new works containing the character; however, does Disney need to still have control over Steamboat Willie? No, Steamboat Willie is almost 100 years old and should really fall into public domain at this point.

What makes this interesting is that plenty of other things that are copyrighted or patented don't really have that problem as nebulous concepts like "public perception" aren't really an issue. If I patented the light bulb, and argued that it can't expire because GE will make an inferior product, that wouldn't fly because people simply wouldn't buy GE's product. It doesn't necessarily harm my own work. Although, as I was thinking of that, one thing did come to mind... hoverboards. Unfortunately, I don't mean the devices from Back to the Future, but rather the two-wheeled tilt-to-drive devices. What's interesting here is that public perception never really had a time to form for these devices before controversy over cheap, Chinese knock-offs started causing public panic due to battery-related fires. I recall seeing a ruggedized one in Best Buy the other day, and the first thing that came to mind was, "I thought they stopped making these after all the fires?"
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
...does Disney need to still have control over Steamboat Willie? No, Steamboat Willie is almost 100 years old and should really fall into public domain at this point...
What kind of control over Steamboat Willie are we talking about? The right for anyone to show the cartoon without compensating Disney for it? The right to show it in your theater and charge for it? Or the right for my new Steamboat Willie Toy Company to use him as a mascot? Can Steamboat Willie be a new member of the Chuck E. Cheese pizza parlor band?

"Need" is a big word. How can a person or company that didn't create, develop, invest in and pay to protect the property of Steamboat Willie all these years "need" to profit or use that work more so than Disney deserves to retain it? When does your property cease to be yours and become public property because you've had it long enough?
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,654
7,884
126
What kind of control over Steamboat Willie are we talking about? The right for anyone to show the cartoon without compensating Disney for it? The right to show it in your theater and charge for it? Or the right for my new Steamboat Willie Toy Company to use him as a mascot? Can Steamboat Willie be a new member of the Chuck E. Cheese pizza parlor band?
All the above. Disney "stole" much of their material, and made something new from it. That's what's supposed to happen with art. It's not supposed to be locked away forever.

When does your property cease to be yours and become public property because you've had it long enough?
I wouldn't make it any longer than current patent terms.
 
Nov 20, 2009
10,051
2,577
136
Public presentation is clearly illegal and says so. Buying or renting a copy of a piece of work and then taking it outside of your home and making it publicly available tends to be akin to breaking into the movie theater for a free viewing. I find thisd no different then a friend renting a movie and lending it to me. I know I am doing wrong, but I find that others find this OK but if I swipe a bootleg copy of Win98 he's all up in my junk as he's a software developer. We both skirted paying the reasonable compensation but in his eyes he couldn't see that. Crazy people are CRAZY. Fine that school!
 

SKORPI0

Lifer
Jan 18, 2000
18,427
2,344
136
I find this no different then a friend renting a movie and lending it to me. I know I am doing wrong, but I find that others find this OK
So how different is this from public libraries letting you "borrow" movies/documentaries (DVD, Blu-ray, 4K) and music CD?
What's to stop someone making a "backup"? I'm with the companies that have spent $$$ making them and for us to enjoy watching, but company should be compensated for it.
 

OccamsToothbrush

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2005
1,389
825
136
and will watch whatever else they put out...

And I think that right there sums up Disney's view of the franchise. They don't have to be original, good or even make sense. The faithful will see whatever they put out and it doesn't matter if three or four in a row are complete crap. There is no breaking point where you will say "enough is enough". You'll keep watching whatever else they put out no matter what.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,154
15,772
126
So how different is this from public libraries letting you "borrow" movies/documentaries (DVD, Blu-ray, 4K) and music CD?
What's to stop someone making a "backup"? I'm with the companies that have spent $$$ making them and for us to enjoy watching, but company should be compensated for it.


Libraries pay through their noses for the licence to lend it out. Lost a copy? You cannot just go buy a copy from Amazon and replace it. You have to acquire another lend out licence.
 
Reactions: Paladin3

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
How can a person or company that didn't create, develop, invest in and pay to protect the property of Steamboat Willie all these years "need" to profit or use that work more so than Disney deserves to retain it? When does your property cease to be yours and become public property because you've had it long enough?
Simple, that was the WHOLE POINT of copyright law. To provide creators FOR A LIMITED TIME exclusive control over their "Works", AND THEN THEY WOULD BECOME THE PROPERTY OF THE PUBLIC, AKA "PUBLIC DOMAIN".

It is Disney, largely, that has distorted that careful balance developed by the Framers of this Nation, and Congress, into the greed-based control that is seen today.
 
Reactions: lxskllr

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
Simple, that was the WHOLE POINT of copyright law. To provide creators FOR A LIMITED TIME exclusive control over their "Works", AND THEN THEY WOULD BECOME THE PROPERTY OF THE PUBLIC, AKA "PUBLIC DOMAIN".

It is Disney, largely, that has distorted that careful balance developed by the Framers of this Nation, and Congress, into the greed-based control that is seen today.
How is a "work" different from any other property? Why is it greedy to want to retain ownership of what you have created? Why do we treat ownership of land or a home differently than ownership of the copyright to a book, film or work of art. Is it any less an act of creation to write a book, produce a movie or take a photograph than it is to build a house? We don't force heirs of any other kind of property to surrender it to the public domain once enough time has passed.

I think we need to reconsider copyright law in this age of digital media. It shouldn't mater if I build houses, cars, write books or make movies, why should some property rights automatically expire?
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,654
7,884
126
I think we need to reconsider copyright law in this age of digital media. It shouldn't mater if I build houses, cars, write books or make movies, why should some property rights automatically expire?
There's no property right in created works. If you want to retain exclusive ownership, don't release it. New art is built on old art. That's why the Constitution allows a *limited* monopoly so the work can be monetized by the creator, and then it's supposed to revert to the public for the good of the public.
 

OccamsToothbrush

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2005
1,389
825
136
There's no property right in created works. If you want to retain exclusive ownership, don't release it. New art is built on old art. That's why the Constitution allows a *limited* monopoly so the work can be monetized by the creator, and then it's supposed to revert to the public for the good of the public.

What exactly is the "good of the public" in regards to a work of fiction? You can't possibly make any sort of case that humanity needs Ishtar or an .mp3 of We Build This City to be free.
 
Reactions: Paladin3

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,654
7,884
126
What exactly is the "good of the public" in regards to a work of fiction? You can't possibly make any sort of case that humanity needs Ishtar or an .mp3 of We Build This City to be free.
New work gets built on old work. Songs get remixed all the time. Fan fiction creates alternate story lines for established works. It doesn't have to be good, but it needs to be available.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
There's no property right in created works. If you want to retain exclusive ownership, don't release it. New art is built on old art. That's why the Constitution allows a *limited* monopoly so the work can be monetized by the creator, and then it's supposed to revert to the public for the good of the public.
Someone that actually understands the Constitution, rather than just greed over "ownership" of created works. The only rights of ownership (as opposed, to authorship) to a creative work, is granted by the gov't. There is no inherent right otherwise, for publically-shown, distributed, etc., copies of those works.

Edit: @Paladin3 , why do you hate the Constitution?
 

OccamsToothbrush

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2005
1,389
825
136
New work gets built on old work. Songs get remixed all the time. Fan fiction creates alternate story lines for established works. It doesn't have to be good, but it needs to be available.

And new work gets built without old work. Are you honestly making the case that innovation in music, film, literature or finger-painting will cease and nobody would create anything new in movies if the copyright to Gigli or Casablanca were entended to perpetuity? Please explain how you think that could happen.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,654
7,884
126
And new work gets built without old work. Are you honestly making the case that innovation in music, film, literature or finger-painting will cease and nobody would create anything new in movies if the copyright to Gigli or Casablanca were entended to perpetuity? Please explain how you think that could happen.
Innovation would be reduced, including a lot of Disney adaptions. We might not even be talking about Disney without Snow White, Pinocchio, Alice in Wonderland, Cinderella... You know, all that valueless stuff they reappropriated.
 

OccamsToothbrush

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2005
1,389
825
136
Someone that actually understands the Constitution, rather than just greed over "ownership" of created works. The only rights of ownership (as opposed, to authorship) to a creative work, is granted by the gov't. There is no inherent right otherwise, for publically-shown, distributed, etc., copies of those works.


Fuck the Constitution. The copyright law that it copied (funny bit of irony there) was written in the UK in 1710, that's more than 300 years ago. Want a list of other laws that were written in that era and tossed because they were ridiculous? Maybe your slaves can gather that material for you. Stupid laws get junked and this one will too eventually. It's heading in that direction.
 

OccamsToothbrush

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2005
1,389
825
136
Innovation would be reduced, including a lot of Disney adaptions. We might not even be talking about Disney without Snow White, Pinocchio, Alice in Wonderland, Cinderella... You know, all that valueless stuff they reappropriated.

How the fuck would innovation be reduced by not being able to copy other peoples works? Do you even understand the definition of "innovation"? ROFLMAO.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
And new work gets built without old work. Are you honestly making the case that innovation in music, film, literature or finger-painting will cease and nobody would create anything new in movies if the copyright to Gigli or Casablanca were entended to perpetuity? Please explain how you think that could happen.
You are aware, that the VAST, Vast, majority of Disney fantasy movies, were based on public-domain fairy tails, right? And if we didn't have a pool of public-domain works to pull storylines from, Disney would only be a very limited shell of what it currently is?
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,654
7,884
126
How the fuck would innovation be reduced by not being able to copy other peoples works? Do you even understand the definition of "innovation"? ROFLMAO.
So you're saying animating a 19th century story isn't an innovation? One of us is stupid, and I know it isn't me, so...
 
Reactions: VirtualLarry

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
Fuck the Constitution. The copyright law that it copied (funny bit of irony there) was written in the UK in 1710, that's more than 300 years ago. Want a list of other laws that were written in that era and tossed because they were ridiculous? Maybe your slaves can gather that material for you. Stupid laws get junked and this one will too eventually. It's heading in that direction.
Found the corporate dick-sucker!

Newsflash: Some of us citizens, still believe in "We the people", and the Rule of Law, starting with English Common Law and the Constitution.

The idea, that the gov't should be: "By the People, For the People, and Of the People". Not that we should all toil under feudal estates established by Corporations, that own all "property", and we just "license" it, and have no property rights of our own.
 
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Reactions: Red Squirrel

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
Found the corporate dick-sucker!

Newsflash: Some of us citizens, still believe in "We the people", and the Rule of Law, starting with English Common Law and the Constitution.

The idea, that the gov't should be: "By the People, For the People, and Of the People". Not that we should all toil under feudal estates established by Corporations, that own all "property", and we just "license" it, and have no property rights of our own.
Come off it! How can you paint yourself as a champion of the people when you advocate taking property away from people who create it and giving free use of it to the people who did nothing to earn or create it. If I make a movie, you have no right to use it for free regardless of how long you wait. Go make your own movie, but leave my property alone. And we're not talking about copyright on ideas, but copyrights on specific works. Specific movies, books, photographs and such.

This whole freebies for the people is a load of crap because that exact philosophy can be used to strip individuals of private property. What makes you think this Robin Hood philosophy will only be used against evil corporations? When was the last time you sat in on any level of law making?

You speak as if it's slavery when someone else works, creates and owns property. And it has to be taken away and distributed so we can all be free!

EDIT: And I'm not talking about health care, food, shelter, education or anything else that we all benefit when there is equal and abundant access for all. I'm talking about the idea that if Disney doesn't let you watch their movies for free it's somehow unfair and greedy. That isn't a necessity.
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
There is no inherent right to "intellectual property", as there is to "real property". The two are hardly the same. Don't be foolish in conflating them.

This is NOT a "robin hood philosophy", but a basic matter of Constitutional Law.

Edit: I really hope that you're not this dumb in real life. It is "We the People" that even grant them the limited monopoly rights on their creative works, IN EXCHANGE (social contract theory) for the eventual gift to common culture, that the "work" will fall into the public domain (after a set period of time, defined by law).

Remember, if someone writes a story, and then shares that story with me, I now have a copy of that story too. It in no way DIMINISHES their original story. That's how culture, and intellectual property spreads and grows.

Unlike "real property", whereas, if I start squatting on your property, YOU cannot make full use of it.
 
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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
There is no inherent right to "intellectual property", as there is to "real property". The two are hardly the same. Don't be foolish in conflating them.

This is NOT a "robin hood philosophy", but a basic matter of Constitutional Law.

Edit: I really hope that you're not this dumb in real life. It is "We the People" that even grant them the limited monopoly rights on their creative works, IN EXCHANGE (social contract theory) for the eventual gift to common culture, that the "work" will fall into the public domain (after a set period of time, defined by law).

Remember, if someone writes a story, and then shares that story with me, I now have a copy of that story too. It in no way DIMINISHES their original story. That's how culture, and intellectual property spreads and grows.

Unlike "real property", whereas, if I start squatting on your property, YOU cannot make full use of it.
I think you should test your theory about creators having no inherent rights over their intellectual property. Maybe your local PTA can show your copy of Lion King at their next fundraiser.

I'm out.
 
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